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Originally Posted by Awesomator
Vial Affinity and Chalice Affinity are two completely different decks. They have different strengths and weaknesses. I've played the matchup quite a bit, I think I would know who gets favored.
Vial Affinity is a tough matchup for Goblins. Thats just a fact.
I'm sure it is a fact when you play with terrible players. We can test this matchup on MWS and post results on here if you would like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
Right, your calling Tenniebopper a terrible player. I've tested the matchup before with him and he has never been able to beat Affinity. Plus, MWS is a piece of garbage that I don't trust whatsoever.
MWS should still let us know how the matchup is.. So you don't want to do it then?
I don't use Magic Work Station. If I'm going to playtest Legacy its usually done in person with friends/teammates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
The only program I use is Magic Online.
I guess the answer is NO.
Awesomator what is your strategy against Affinity. Since you have such a favorable matchup against the deck you must be doing things different from the rest of us. The first factor is the list your running which is slightly different than mine but I can't see how +2 Tin Street -3 Pyrokinesis can have as much of a swing in the matchup as you seem to think.
The list that I've test against a lot is RBg which has many problem cards for the Goblin player in Atog, Fling, and Berserk. Atog is incredibly hard to beat through and when attacking forces a chump block nearly ever turn. The only way to actually remove him is if he comes down early with few artifacts to back him up. After that you need a very large Gempalm so they Affinity player is forced into the decision of keep Atog or sacrifice board presence.
Thats only the first problem card, Fling and Berserk both serve similar roles and are equally a beating for Goblins. All Affinity needs to do is get in some early beats in the first few turns where they are clearly ahead of Goblins and then finish it off with Fling or Berserk. If the Goblins player is left unmolested then it will have an edge in the lategame due to its superior card advantage but if your not putting Affinity on a clock or killing a lot of their permanents then you'll just die as soon as they topdeck Fling or Berserk.
I have a feeling your testing is skewed not from Affinity players playing bad Goblins players but the other way around. I consider myself a decent Goblins player and I test against a solid Affinity player but I lose much more games than I win. Don't even get me started on the post-board match which gets even worse for Goblins.
I play Red-White, and even when I'm not packing Serenity, I never have much trouble with Affinity either. And I can't imagine my Affinity match is better than Awesomator's, considering he has Tin-Street Hooligan.
Swords to Plowshares stops Atog, and he's the only card I worry about. Ravager's modular triggers are awful against well-timed Mogg Fanatics and Gempalm Incinerators, and an early Pyrokinesis can just eat their manabase for breakfast.
As an Affinity player I'll have to agree if you play w/r goblins with swords in the board it is probably much rougher for affinity (atog is definitely one of the best creatures in the match), swords is the one card that gives UGw Threshold a fighting chance against Vial Affinity and their core strategy is much weaker against you them Goblins. Excluding swords though I realize fanatics are annoying but there on board so it usually not that hard to play around them, simply throwing a workers modular counter to the creature you plan on enhancing with ravager stops that play from being very effective. As far as pyrokinesis eating affinity's manabase alive I think that depends on what strategy the affinity player is employing. For example pyrokinesis is much more popular sideboarded then maindeck these days and post boarded I take out frogmite for clasm and simply play a semi-defensive game with enforcers and atog and ravager and then clasm the board away and switch to offense, or draw berserk/fling with atog and end the game there.
As both a Affinity and Goblins player in Legacy I've made the following observations in tournament play.
First, I found that most Affinity players are not that highly skilled in terms of the fundamentals of the game. They don't understand how to play the matchup versus Goblins all that well.
Second, Goblins are usually played by better players that understand the game a lot better. Many consider Goblins as the best deck in Legacy which is another reason why so many good players just pick the deck and put themselves in a great position to win the tournament.
We can go back and forth as who has the advantage in this particular matchup, but I think it really comes down to play skill and the players understanding on how the match should be played.
Good thing Awesomator and I kick ass at magic, then.
I still think, however, that on equal skill levels, Goblins wins this more often than not. With solid knowledge of trigger timing and being able to count your opponent's "actual cost" for their affinity spells, you can make the decisions that will often keep you in control of the match.
I do find it interesting to theorize that R/W Goblins has a better affinity match than R/G Goblins. Even with STP, I seriously didn't think this was the case. And I don't remember my matches with R/G Goblins in detail enough to know, although I do recall dying to Atog a lot more but also winning through early mana denial via TS Hooligan a lot more with the R/G build.
Anyone play against both RW and RG (Or with RW and RG) enough to add more to this?
You’re probably right, I have not played against r/w with swords and I was just theorizing but hooligan plus wasteland mana denial can be potent especially if you take me off red which is atog, fling and clasm or I get a mana light draw. In testing if I wasn't down on lands then I would make sure to hold red sources until I needed them.
Well its easy to say why goblins is favored. Swords, Tin-Street/Tinkerer, Gempalm, Ringleader, SGC, and Fanatic. After the sb we see additional Tin-Streets, Pyrokinesis, and maybe Krosan Grip.
Now lets see what are the cards in affinity that even that up?
Atog.. Umm Plating?
Myr Enforcer is slow as balls. In your average non busted games he gets stunted by Fanatics killing Workers, Wasteland, Port, Gemplamed Thopters and Frogs, ect. He comes out roughly turn 4-5. He has no evasion so goblins can block him easily with Matrons and other nonsense.
Ravager has a nice ability vs most aggro decks in modular but goblins rule to roost as far as targeting that shit.
You have roughly 5-10 more creatures in goblins depending on the builds but they can chain into more creatures via matron tutoring, ringleader, and SGC guy advantage. What does affinity have on that?
The only edge you have bringing brown to that table is the meager possiblitly of the combo kill. Rarely you can get the DotV out with vial and 5-7 artifacts on the board with a flyer and Ravager. Rarely you have a DotV and Fling with 8 artifacts ect. It just doesnt happen.
You cant needle vial because you play it. Your only possible sb out is Engineered Plauge which goblins is well equiped to battle. Especially when every land in your deck is a waste target.
I love how people are declining little challenges to play on MWS. The random shuffler is randomly bad for both players just like randomly IRL. Just play the matchups and lose to Awsomator.
... I thought both Gekoratel and I pointed out what Affinity does to win the match;
Preboard
(Atog = hard to kill) + (Fling or Berserk) = dead goblins player
or
Regular beats(this favors the goblins but not more then 60/40.
Postboard
Preboard plan
or
pyroclasm + some combination of Myr Enforcer, Ravager, Atog and modulized creatures = Goblins player in a tight spot if not dead
I'm not saying the match heavily favors Affinity, but it is just as versatile as Goblins and has access to some very powerful trumps to there strategy. On the other hand most of the serious hate for affinity is not run in goblins.
Gekoratel.. my new (and much better list than my man leak open deck) is aimed to deal with Goblin hate which is going to be around a lot at GP.
My list is:
4x B.S. Mire (much better to have more of than foothills)
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
5x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Siege-Gang Commander
4x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Tin street Hooligan
4x Aether Vial
Board is:
3x Pyrokinesis
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Krosan Grip
My original board had Patron of the Akki in instead of 1 Grip and 1 Pillar. 4 Grip sounds like a lot, but.. play it, you definitely won't be dissapointed. I am not here to argue about affinity which won't be around enough to worry about. As always, I back my talk with a lot of testing, and would be more than happy to test with anyone on MWS. I know MWS is a little shitty with the random generator, but it will tell us how the matchup is if we play enough games. People test against literally BAD Goblins players. A bad goblins player can be a good player who doesn't have a ton of experience with goblins. I would like to even get a third tin street in, but seems like there's nothing to cut (don't tell me incinerator, fanatic, to cut a land, or to run 61 cards or I will hate you all, but I'll eventually get over it).
How about tossing Tranquil Domain in the former-Patron slot? If you really need some heavy duty anti-Plague answers, something like two Domains sounds just right. Then you'd have a total of 5 Disenchant-effects to bring in. Also, has the 4th Krosan Grip been better than the Patron?