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i would think of needle and abolish, for example, at least if you are playing against the UBG list, i do not know about the UWx lists
but not sure how usefull these cards would be in this matchup, i am using mainly runed halo for jace and factorys but deed is still the main problem
Runed Halo on Jace is awful. Runed Halo on Factory is awful. Landstill beats you with one thing: card economy. It does not beat you with Mishra's Factory any more than an anaconda kills with its mouth.
Pithing Needle is a good plan. In fact, 4 Needlles is probably good. Against Landstill there are a lot of Needle targets you really have to hit. But the best plan is to put it on a clock. D+T is not especially good at that. Remember to side out your equipment and Mystics. And spot removal of creatures. Ports and Wastelands can be effective against Landstill in some matches. Vial is, of course, are extremely good. Mother of Runes is occasionally very good. Hokori, Dust Drinker is agood. But the big finisher is Cataclysm.
If I was playing against Landstill, I'd probably side out StPs and Jitte to bring in 2x Cataclysm and 3x Leonin Arbiter. Maybe the last Grunt.
For reference, my SB:
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Wing Shards
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt
I played against 2 Landstills this weekend, and...I hated it.
1st Landstill was the UBg list. I was running my list with W-tutor on the side, so I had no outs to Pernicious Deed. He won easily.
2nd was the UW list. Very close first game, but I lose. I won 2nd game with a Qasali Pridemage equipped with both a Jitte and a SoLaS. 3rd game, I open a hand with 3 (!) Gaddock Teeg. However, I somehow manage to lose as I have no vial :(.
So I am thinking to add 2 Krosan Grip. My sideboard (GW) is:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Worldly Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Scryb Ranger
1 True Believer
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Faerie Macabre
Seconded. It especially shines against (the more popular nowadays) Ugb lists, as stopping deed and jace is crucial in this MU. Between this and the surge of survival decks, I just don't understand people playing less than 4 needles in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Agreed, the usefulness of pithing needle (and to a lesser extent, leonin arbiter) has me thinking about departing from the tutor sideboard in favour of a more conventional one.
Here's the list i'm using now for reference:
Land
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
5 Plains
1 Forest
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
Other
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Runed Halo
1 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg
The SoBaM is just there because I'm testing it right now. If it isn't good enough, it'll probably make space for another tutor or an extra kgrip.
If i was to change the sideboard, it'd probably look something like
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Kitchen Finks / Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
Thoughts?
From the games that i have played, i never had issues regarding the leonin arbiter and the tutor board... the same goes with the stoneforge mystics... it's all about knowing the matchups and which cards to play first in those specific matchups...that and a little bit of luck i guess...:)
Where do you see the deck heading, in terms of overall strategy? People seem to be liking the idea of splashing green in for Goyf and Pridemage, which gives a little more utility but a lot more combat power. Do we need that power, or would our overall effectiveness be better served by making better use of our creature tricks?
Over at MTGS someone posted a high-finishing list with green for Pridemage and Scryb Ranger. The Ranger saves Savannahs from Wasteland, acts as pseudo mana sources by themselves, doubles the effect of Mangara, Mom, and Harrier, carries equipment over blockers' heads, blocks huge flying Merfolk all day, is immune to Jace and Echoing Truth, and does all of that at surprise speeds. As always, Goyf is "just" big.
So the question again is utility or size. Personally I'm thrilled with the additional tricks that Scryb Ranger advertises, but sometimes you just need a ton of meat. Thoughts?
I'd go for the splash if I had the money for 4x Savannah and 4x Tarmogoyf. I'll probably just stick with MW for those reasons.
If i was playing the green list i would be playing Linving Wish (Life and Taxes). It'd grab you Karakas in a pinch, and it'd allow you to grab what you need in the sideboard. Normally i'd place a Mom, Managara, Karakas and then some specific hate. I don't like Goyf as he doesn't have anything to actually offer the deck, for "dumb beats" i'd might as well run KotR since he can at least grab you the land you need.
saying that Tarmogoyf has nothing to offer the deck is a might bit unfair. For one thing Tarmogoyf has the ability to block other Tarmogoyf's all day long. That is something that none of this decks other creatures can do (at least not without Sword of Body and Mind equipped). Additionally, when combined with Qasali Pridemage, Tarmogoyf becomes a force that can beat through defending Tarmogoyfs. Which isn't that shabby of a prospect in and of itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parax
Ultimately, the only real advantage that Knight of the Reliquary has over Tarmogoyf, is that it can tutor up lands. And in order to do so it needs to sacrifice lands to begin with. In my personal opinion that is a trade off that this deck cannot afford easily. Thus I am against using Knight of the Reliquary in this deck.
Personally I think having Mangara and Flickerwisp is enough tricks. The way I see it,Mangara and Mum are major lightning rods, so I prefer not to use cards like Scryb Ranger which need other cards on the board to do their cute tricks.
The flying is only relevant if we can get an equip on it, and usually the protection from the equip gives evasion anyway. The pro-blue is useful, but usually doesn't do very much. I've never had much of a problem against merfolk, so Scryb Ranger isn't really necessary in my opinion.
On the other hand, the goyf is good on its own and puts them on a clock - something that this deck often struggles to do.
So yes, we do lose some utility by playing goyf over say, Jotun Grunt or Scryb Ranger, but I think the bigger body and faster block is worth it.
As for Living Wish, I've tested it and found it to be extremely slow. This deck doesn't need to set up Karakas/Mangara in order to win - it's just a nice bonus. Using Living Wish to fetch your hate is also far too slow - especially if you don't have an active vial, which, for me, happens quite often.
Actually, Jotun eats up opposing goyfs...and mother can chump block it all day too...Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
Another trick with scryb ranger would be untapping a creature on your opponent's turn to block (imagine if the creature you untapped had a jitte equipped)...i think with all the tricks scryb ranger give the deck, it should warrant the slot over tarmogoyfs...in the right situation, scryb ranger turns the game into a blowout... which is basically in line with the whole direction of the deck, wherein you take small unexpected tricks and add them all up to cripple the enemy... time to save up for some savannahs!
Chumping a Goyf with Mother of Runes is usually a bad policy, especially against decks such as Zoo where you should be saving Mother of Runes activations for protecting your creatures from removal. As far as Jotun Grunt is concerned, I have found that often times that he is as much of a hindrance as a benefit when it comes to eating goyfs. Mainly because while he does shrink both Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary in the short term, he does not in actuality ANSWER them permanently, unless your opponent is desperate enough to either attack into the Grunt or block the Grunt. Which is to say most opponents I have encountered unless they are sitting at extremely low life already, tend to not be desperate enough to do so. Thus I would rather have my own Goyf instead of the Grunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
And yes, Scryb Ranger is simply amazing in the Green White version of the deck. It is perhaps one of the best innovations to come to the deck that I have seen in some time.
Can somebody post a list with maindeck Scryb Ranger? Because I play a GW list and has one in the sidem, but in the last two events I attented to I never sided it in...
Also, Living Wish is not good in this deck. Too slow. I have tested it and never liked it. Same thing for Knight of the Reliquary. The idea is that once you put green in the mix, you're not so reliant on Mangara + Karakas. They are just a bonus, or something that gives you inevitability on the long game.
I am interested in looking at other people's GW lists, so if you're kind enough to post them or PM them to me...
Does anybody use Sylvan Library in GW build? It seems to be good.
4 mothers of the runes
4 flickerwisp
3 mangara of corondor
4 qasali priedmage
3 scryb ranger
3 stoneforge mystic
4 aeter vial
4 oblivion ring
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
4Windswept Heath
3 savannah
2 plains
1 forest
3 karakas
4 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
Here's the list posted in MTGS that top 8'd in a 65-man tourney in Lucca, Italy although the sideboard is unknown...:(
Personally i don't think the list is optimal as having 4 qasali pridemages and 4 oblivion rings is overkill... also it runs 24 lands which i think is too much too... maybe removing some o-rings and some lands to fit in 4 serra avengers and maybe 2 grunts...but that's just my personal observation... having 10 ways to get 2 mangara activations (3 karakas, 3 scryb ranger and 4 flickerwisp) is full of win for me in mws testing... it's really hard to come back from... sadly i don't own savannahs yet in real life...
Yes, I can fully agree that this list *seems* a bit sketchy, however, making top 8 in a 65-man event is nice indeed. What I don't like:
- 4 Wasteland + 3 Rishadan Port in a deck with that plays 2 colors. That seems to open the door to mana problems.
- 24 lands? Really? Seems too much. I'd cut 2 at least.
- 4 Oblivion Ring and 4 Pridemage. I think we can safely cut the 4 Oblivion Rings.
- No Goyf nor Avenger? Those 2 are, without a doubt, the best beaters available to this archetype.
Those were my thoughts too. I'm not too disappointed by the lack of Goyfs in itself, but taking out Avenger and Grunt at the same time seems to weaken the deck significantly. Quoting myself:
Quote:
The Green additions are interesting, but the list overall is a little confusing. Why the need for O-Rings and Pridemages, and four of each no less? They're both awesome cards, but there's an overall reduction in combat strength (-Serra Avenger, -Jotun Grunt, +Pridemage) in the build as posted. Also, there's a reduction of versatility (-Grunt, -Harrier) in creature tricks. Folks have considered cutting Rings anyway and replacing them with Wispmares and the like.
Scryb Ranger seems like an awesome choice, but since her ability can be used to increase the effective mana in the deck, the increase to 24 land also seems suspect.
From the list as posted, I'd propose taking away 4-6 Rings and Pridemages, and adding back 3-4 Avengers and 1-2 Harriers. The Harriers have the additional advantage of working well with the Rangers.
Something tells me the manabase could also use some help, but I'm not quite sure how to improve that. Any ideas?
Is the GW list worth getting without Goyf?
I might just splurge on the 3-4 Fetches I need as well as saving up for a few dual lands. The abiltiy to splash MD Qasali is handy. SB Gaddock Teeq and Krosan Grip is also nice. Scryb Ranger seems really interesting as well.
Would something like this seem sensible:
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Serra Avenger
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Scry Ranger
4x Mother of Runes
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Windswepth Heath
4x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Savannah
3x Karakas
3x Plains
2x Forest
SB:
3x Wing Shards
3x Krosan Grip
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Gaddock Teeq
3x Tormod's Crypt
I might end up cutting down to two Savannahs to fit my budget and replace one with a 5th fetch of indeterminate type. How does it seem for a no-goyf list? Should the Oblivion Rings be cut along with 1 Avenger or something else to fit 3x Knight of the Reliquary? I would like to try to fit Jötun Grunts and Cataclysm in there somewhere.