[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Originally Posted by Henrik

Ok. So what do you play now Adan, UGw or 5c?

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SwanThresh, but only for experimental reasons since my first build went pretty well.

Well, if you want to ask me which variant I'm going to play at the German Legacy Champs here... I could not give an answer yet. It's actually a gamble.

And it's fucking Clemens' fault!!!

UWb Cunning Landstill has established EVERYWHERE, even if I'd travel to America to visit you guys and play some tourney, I have to be prepared to play against it. Seriously, it became very popular. And the best Threshold variant to beat them would be either SwanThresh (reveal Swans for 4 + the combo) or UGw (Gaddock Teeg + CBalance = humiliation).

But I'm afraid of Ichorid (most retarded deck in existence) and Goblins at the same time.

So I guess I have to test with Clemens to see how the inclusion of Thoughtseize and the absence of Needles and Gaddock Teeg affect the Landstill matchup.

Additionally, I would have to test which Sideboardcards are effective against Ichorid (Crypts, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Jotun Grunt, Dueling Grounds, maybe even Propaganda, lol).

But at the moment, I like 5color threshold, but I would still love to know why Obfreeley has suddenly exchanged the 2 Portents he recommended with Predicts. They both serve a different role, but even though this sounds crazy, Portent allows you to play more aggressively (i.e. finding solutions or critters), supports Counterbalance a littlebit and maintains the strange manabase (it's solid, but still strange).

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

You seem to be confused about the difference between control and disruption:

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Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

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Onto the creatures: 8 is enough, it allows you to play the control role, which this deck does very well, and finish off quickly with a couple of low casting cost big-powered creatures

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8 Creatures is perfect for my controlish play style.

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Both statements are made by goobafish, the co-creator of this deck. I think he knows the difference.

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Originally Posted by Henrik

trash

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ThrashThrashThrashThrashThrash

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

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Just wanted to add a bit to his point. Every tempo deck relies on disrupting slower decks and making them even slower. If you are playing against a deck that estabilishes its game plan very quickly, you cannot keep on playing Stifle-Waste. An example of this is is Aether Vial. Although they have not dropped a real threat, Vial will screw your tempo disrupting spells immensely.

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

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Be it the co-founder of the deck or you. Preventing spells from being played for a limited amount of time by attacking the mana base is disruption, not control.

Only running 8 creatures and killing fast doesn't contradict itself. You only need 8 creatures because you don't need them early and after you successfully disrupted your opponents mana base you just drop creature(s) and get them through while they are trying to recover. Or do you want to tell me that the deck can control the board well into the lategame consistently?

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

Just wanted to add a bit to his point. Every tempo deck relies on disrupting slower decks and making them even slower. If you are playing against a deck that estabilishes its game plan very quickly, you cannot keep on playing Stifle-Waste. An example of this is is Aether Vial. Although they have not dropped a real threat, Vial will screw your tempo disrupting spells immensely.

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Well if your opponent drops a Vial and he doesn't play goblins you can still use your stifles on said Vial. It at least buys some time to adjust your role to the situation. Also Wastelands can hinder them from playing non-creature spells.
Besides Vial I don't see that many competitive decks that are not slowed down by stifle on fetch on turn 1 whether it is Goyfsligh or Landstill. Even Aggro Loam can be caught off guard rarely if they keep a shitty hand.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Be it the co-founder of the deck or you. Preventing spells from being played for a limited amount of time by attacking the mana base is disruption, not control.

Only running 8 creatures and killing fast doesn't contradict itself. You only need 8 creatures because you don't need them early and after you successfully disrupted your opponents mana base you just drop creature(s) and get them through while they are trying to recover. Or do you want to tell me that the deck can control the board well into the lategame consistently?

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The deck isn't a board control deck. No Threshold list can perfectly control the board into the lategame like ITF and Landstill can. However your lategame is just as good, if not better than that of any other Threshold list.

Adan, if Gaddock Teeg really is the bee's knees against Landstill, you can certainly board him in 5c Threshold. You're... allowed.

We cut the Portents for Predicts because we wanted to fit another way to generate card advantage into the deck. Our results with the change have been mixed. You're absolutely right that Portent helps stabilize the manabase, and is an all-around fantastic card, so it may be correct to keep them in.

The Predicts work better than a single Fact or Fiction, though!


I certainly recommend 5c Thresh to Henrik. I agree with Happy that it is superior to other builds in almost any metagame. The only other variant I would consider is Moon Thresh, which I would play if I knew that Blood Moon would be effective (basically, this means a sea of 4-color control decks).

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Originally Posted by Adan

But at the moment, I like 5color threshold

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

I certainly recommend 5c Thresh to Henrik.

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Cool, thank you for concrete recommendations. I will try it soon in the next local tourney.

Sorry I haven't been reporting lately. I've just been really busy.
I've won a few more shop tourneys with Swan Thresh, usually being in the Top 2 with some Dreadnought variant.
Last night I was actually Top 2 with some weird U/R Man-Land Stompy-Tempo build, and he needed to leave so we split in my favor.

Swan-Thresh is so controlling and so consistent, it pretty much always does what it is supposed to do ... win with Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance.
But it can combo! lol I'd say I combo in maybe 10-15% of my matches, just because a lot of the time you don't need to.
But damn, it is so great knowing you CAN. Because sometimes a huge horde of creatures or something you cannot stop are coming at you and Swan is your way out.

And I still play the one-of Misdirection, it has been so good to me, you rarely need it, but when you do, its there for you.
It is a ticket to a win against other Thresh lists, too. When there's a Goyf stand-off and they try to StP yours, Misdirection is the best spell you can play.
Same goes for when they try to get rid of your swan. I've Misdirected Warren Weirdings even.
He had a Lackey and I had a Goyf. But I wanted to start attacking, so I MisD the Weirding so now he has two 1/1s that do nothing. Swing!

played thrash at gencon, i top 4ed the first prelim with a fairly stock list with a slight tweak

i took the stock thrash list and did this

-1 wipe away
+1 island

board was
4 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroclasm

I don't know if wipe away was the correct card to cut but i do know that the 1 basic was tremendous all weekend, it allowed me to get out of blood moon by being able to continue cantripping into my rushing river, it was golden in the thrash mirror, and it was also solid against landstill

my board for the champs changed into
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 engineered explosives
2 trygon predator

From extensive play I know the deck needs at least 1 basic island. Im debating if the correct card to cut is wipe away or wasteland, those seem to be the 2 best candidates

The blasts in the board were absolutely the nuts, and the trygon predator was a last minute addition that was stellar as well

Is one basic island really enough to do a whole lot? I know it gives you access to blue mana under moon effects, but unless you manage to find your one-of rushing river, that single blue source is all you get. Yes we run cantrips, but finding a one-of is hard, especially when blood moon is often followed or preceded by chalice for 1. I like the idea as a bit of resiliency, but I judt don't feel it's necessary. I had too many times this weekend where I just ripped lands in topdecking mode, and it always seems to come down to topdecking in the thresh mirror (so you're a bit worse off). Anyway, if it works I would suggest trying it in waste #4's slot to keep the build running smoothly at 18 lands, which I feel is correct.

On a side note, I was the other player who top4'd that first prelim. Sadly, I was not happy at all with my play in the main event and went 2-2 drop losing to goblins and the top8 elf list. I absolutely agree about the red blasts, but I've yet to have to sb predator in while in a tournament setting. I'm going to leave it in until it proves itself to me one way or the other.

If you are having troubles with Blood Moon and Magus, couldn't you run less Volcanic Islands for some basic Islands? Basically, mimic Moon Thresh's manabase with Wasteland. Magus is obviously less of an issue since you can burn it(unless there's a 3Sphere or CotV@1).

3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

The problem with a singleton Island is when they drop a Moon on turn 1, before you can even fetch for it.

I don't know though, I don't play Thrash enough to know if 3 Islands stops the deck from working properly.

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Originally Posted by chokin

If you are having troubles with Blood Moon and Magus, couldn't you run less Volcanic Islands for some basic Islands? Basically, mimic Moon Thresh's manabase with Wasteland. Magus is obviously less of an issue since you can burn it(unless there's a 3Sphere or CotV@1).

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MoonThresh-Manabase + Wastelands = the suck.

You will be offcolor most of the time if you do so.

And actually, in his latest list, goobafish runs 2 Rushing River, which i also really like since it can take dead Wastelands and turn them into huge speedadvantage.

And postboard, you will maybe have some Blue Elemental Blasts to deal with Moon (this really depends on the SB).

actually gooba said that he switched back to the 1/1 split with wipe away and rushing river.

The 1 basic island helped a ton for me, if they dont get a turn 1 moon or chalice at 1, you will have an opportunity to get into the game before you get locked out permanently.

My manabase for tempo list is:

2 polluted
2 flooded
2 Wooded
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island

I feel you really shouldn't take off any wastelands since they are crucial for your disruptive strategy.
Having more than one island in play really sucks and you'll certainly be colour-screwed. Playing one island is sufficent to deal with moon effects, you must only be careful to leave a fetchland to search it in response (obv not the foothills). I run 3 Hydroblast and 2 EE in the sideboard , so blood moon and chalice can be dealed with more efficiently than bouncing preboard.

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Originally Posted by Ironstickman

My manabase for tempo list is:

2 polluted
2 flooded
2 Wooded
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island

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Why even run foothills, just go 3/3 on your other fetches.

True...XD
I guess that since it is a slight/recent/quick change towards these matchups I hadn't looked at it too carefully. Needle is not really an excuse for not playing the 3/3 split of island fetchlands anyway.
thanks!

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

18 lands

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Swans

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Top

4 Bolt
3 Chain

4 FoW
3 Cbalance
3 Daze

leaves two slots in the maindeck, one of which usually goes to the 4th Daze (although I personally don't like this with the combo in the deck, and I'm currently running 2x Spell Snare).

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EEEK, -1 Land, +1 Daze!!!

In those 2 slots, I either run 2 Portent or 2 Predict. I like them both.

By the way, you forgot Lightning Storm as well.

I run Daze #4 and Misdirection is those two slots and I have been EXTREMELY pleased with the results.
We have a very control heavy meta around here and having FoW #5 for counter-wars is SO GOOD.
Also, when playing against Death & Taxes and you cant move their StP to the only creature you can't kill directly (Silver Knight) that's pretty good, too.
I wouldn't run more than one, though. It is great when you see it, but if you don't no biggie.

Basically I see Misdirection as another way to protect Swan if you are comboing.
Whether you are moving their StP/Vindicate/whatever to your Goyf or one of their guys, or if it just FoW#5 for their FoW, it is great.



Anyhow! I played in a 19-man Tourney last night, made Top 2 and split with the 42-Land player. :D
In the Top4 I even had a mirror match, and we are talking literally card for card mirror match.
Got him 2-0 ! Combo game one, Goyfs + Burned him out with Lightning Storm game 2
I'll post some sort of a report when I get some more time.

Hey guys, what's the standard moon thresh list these days? I assume it plays 3 Magus MD instead of Blood Moon, and has no Fledgling Dragons. Anyone want to help me out?

Hi guys, just want to ask about the basic game plan vs aggro-loam? I haven't encountered them yet but I want to be prepared when that time comes, at least theoretically.

I'm running a gro-thrash build and topped a 26-man tournament with it. I included the dryad firstly because of jotun grunts that are very prevalent in our meta, and honestly because she is so fun to play hehe :wink:

Thanks.