Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Ran this to a 3-1 finish last night:
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
1 Bayou
---------------------------
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
Lost to Goblins in 2 games, dying to a Blood Moon in Game 2; Went 2-0 against Miracles; Went 2-0 against Omniscience; Went 2-0 against Deathblade.
-Matt
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Ran this to a 3-1 finish last night:
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
1 Bayou
---------------------------
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
Lost to Goblins in 2 games, dying to a Blood Moon in Game 2; Went 2-0 against Miracles; Went 2-0 against Omniscience; Went 2-0 against Deathblade.
-Matt
Can you tell us something about your card choices and your local meta? Would you play the same list at a large event like a GP.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
Can you tell us something about your card choices and your local meta? Would you play the same list at a large event like a GP.
The local meta is usually aggro creature decks or Esperblade type decks. There seems to be a switch to combo in recent weeks.
We'll be having an event next Saturday that'll include Storm, Omni, Pox, Affinity, Esperblade, Junk, Jund, Elves, Goblins, RUG, and Bug representing.
Would I play this list in a large GP? Hard to tell. I think at the moment I would probably want to pack some Spell Pierces with all the combo around (which could replace Disfigures, which were awesome in the creature matchups by the way). In the board, you definitely want plans against Jund, which seems to be one of the harder matchups (especially with Punishing Fires).
I went to SCG Seattle and played in the Saturday Legacy grinder for a box, and went 2-2, losing in a tight 3 games to Miracles and Jund. however, subsequent Miracles testing showed that the matchup is just fine, but Jund could use some work. The two I won were against Deathblade in 2 games and a Storm deck in 2.
Esperblade's Lingering Souls is a bit of a problem at times, but E. Plague sure helps out.
I would run this deck in a GP if I felt it was better positioned than Junk, my favourite deck :tongue:
-Matt
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
I have been testing with 2 Wastelands maindeck on 24 lands (4 Mishra) as well as a Loam maindeck lately.
I feel that it is not worth it. On 25 lands in a meta full of Jund maybe but I think having 6 colorless lands is just too detrimental because it makes you so vulnerable to wasteland on your colored sources making it really hard to cast Deed vs the more aggressive decks with wastelands and you don't really have time to waste them because then you'll never be able to Deed before it is too late.
Also the 1 off Bayou have been really good for me as I feel that anytime you have 2 duals in play and fetch again I always want to get the unholy trinity (trop bayou sea) in play because so often you really need all colors to play Deed and Decay and again just getting for instance 2 sea + 1 trop makes you weak to a wasteland on green etc.
The only problem I have with not playing Wastelands is basically Jund and that MU does seem hard and will need something in the board. Right now I'm back on the plan of just getting more removal in conjuction with a couple of black Leylines out of the board just to be able to fight Punishing Fire specifically but that plan does seem a little farfetched but at the same time I don't want to dilute the main and sb just for 1 MU.
The Loam keeps underperforming as I never want it in my opening hand and don't really feel the need for it in the midgame vs the grindier decks. It might be a sample size thing and that it is really good for recurring Mishra in the right MU but cutting it for now.
Disfigure and Spell Snare continue to overperform but I have cut my Spell Pierces completely as I have felt they are the weakest and most narrow between them and the 1cc discard and playing 6 cards that are pretty bad topdecks mid/late have been causing some issues. The discard has been overall great still and I wouldn't leave home without it. My blue count is a bit lowered but still 23+.
A Maelstrom Pulse has found its way back into the MD and I have one in the board still, mostly for Esper and other Lingering Souls decks. Still on the fence about it but it feels fine.
Considering going down to 2 Snapcaster Mage as they have been feeling a bit more clunky lately being a virtual 3-4cc card, especially after cutting Loam again, probably for a Decay/Disfigure/Snare.
Anyways, deck feels super solid overall and I have been liking it. I'm a bit concerned that it is just better to play Shardless BUG since the decks have a lot of similarities but they are probably better vs combo. Still ofc has some upsides as well and I prefer the style of play but yeah.. whatever.
How was your GP experience guys?
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Player new to the deck here, played a few hands today against enchantress (lol), UR Imperial Painter and DnT, and the deck seemed to perform really well. I love how it plays and I'm tired of flipping Delvers all day, so I'll switch to BUGstill for now.
I'd like some feedback on my list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Life from the Loam
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Quick notes: I don't play Baleful Strix, because of no money, and though I love Disfigure, my meta has lots of Moms and Mongeese, hence Innocent Blood. Other than that, what do you guys think?
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eldpojken
I have been testing with 2 Wastelands maindeck on 24 lands (4 Mishra) as well as a Loam maindeck lately.
I feel that it is not worth it. On 25 lands in a meta full of Jund maybe but I think having 6 colorless lands is just too detrimental because it makes you so vulnerable to wasteland on your colored sources making it really hard to cast Deed vs the more aggressive decks with wastelands and you don't really have time to waste them because then you'll never be able to Deed before it is too late.
Also the 1 off Bayou have been really good for me as I feel that anytime you have 2 duals in play and fetch again I always want to get the unholy trinity (trop bayou sea) in play because so often you really need all colors to play Deed and Decay and again just getting for instance 2 sea + 1 trop makes you weak to a wasteland on green etc.
The only problem I have with not playing Wastelands is basically Jund and that MU does seem hard and will need something in the board. Right now I'm back on the plan of just getting more removal in conjuction with a couple of black Leylines out of the board just to be able to fight Punishing Fire specifically but that plan does seem a little farfetched but at the same time I don't want to dilute the main and sb just for 1 MU.
The Loam keeps underperforming as I never want it in my opening hand and don't really feel the need for it in the midgame vs the grindier decks. It might be a sample size thing and that it is really good for recurring Mishra in the right MU but cutting it for now.
Disfigure and Spell Snare continue to overperform but I have cut my Spell Pierces completely as I have felt they are the weakest and most narrow between them and the 1cc discard and playing 6 cards that are pretty bad topdecks mid/late have been causing some issues. The discard has been overall great still and I wouldn't leave home without it. My blue count is a bit lowered but still 23+.
A Maelstrom Pulse has found its way back into the MD and I have one in the board still, mostly for Esper and other Lingering Souls decks. Still on the fence about it but it feels fine.
Considering going down to 2 Snapcaster Mage as they have been feeling a bit more clunky lately being a virtual 3-4cc card, especially after cutting Loam again, probably for a Decay/Disfigure/Snare.
Anyways, deck feels super solid overall and I have been liking it. I'm a bit concerned that it is just better to play Shardless BUG since the decks have a lot of similarities but they are probably better vs combo. Still ofc has some upsides as well and I prefer the style of play but yeah.. whatever.
How was your GP experience guys?
I agree with some of this.
I'm also down to 2 Wastelands (from 3), but I put in a Riptide Lab and moved one of the Cliques main, as well as added in a maindeck Venser, Shaper Savant. Haven't tested this package yet -- planning on doing so tomorrow night. The Snapcasters have been so good that I really want a way to abuse them them. Venser gives a powerful late game dimension, and Clique was being boarded in literally every single match, so I said fuck it and just moved it main. I removed the Bloods and went up the 3 Disfigure, which may well end up being a mistake (though bear in mind I have 2 Pulses maindeck for "big removal"). This change is primarily due to the increased creature velocity/importance, as well as my constant drive to make the deck as instant-speed as possible.
Loam is still in for me -- I rarely abuse it, but it gets some solid use getting back lands to Brainstorm away, cheating on Brainstorms by dredging chaff, getting back spent manlands, and so on. Tried Liliana of the Veil and hated it, so her (and the 2nd Loam in the board) are both gone.
If Punishing Fire is an issue (which is not surprising), try sideboarding 1-2 Memoricide/Cranial Extraction. That fixes the Punishing Fire problem nicely. I've also got a pair of Surgicals in my board which help out with Fires...but are more for the Groves, Cloudposts, and other such issues. Surgical + Waste on one of those lands will often cause the attending deck to fold, and such a strategy tends to be the only way to effectively fight such decks.
I don't think that Shardless is "just better" at all -- and I CERTAINLY don't think that Shardless is better vs combo than BUGstill is. Combo is actually one of Shardless' key weak points.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
I have also cut the spell pierces and moved my non-decay removal to all disfigures and 1 maelstrom pulse, and I like it a lot. The deck seems much more consistent.
I have 2 wastes and a Loam, which I liked a lot during the last 4-rounder I played in. Against decks with wasteland, it's nice to not be afraid of playing my factories, and against decks without wasteland, it's nice to be able to recur my own wastes. I had one game where loam did nothing and two where it did a lot, so I'm leaving it in for now.
I'm on one Lili, down from two, and liking that a bit more. That might be because the only time I drew her was when she would be useful.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
It amuses me how there's a bunch of us who all seem to play the same decks overall, lol.
Ayotte, how have you found the 1-of Pulse? I've thought a couple times about dropping down to 1 Pulse (I currently run 2 Pulse, 2 Decay), but I'm always too concerned about opposing big things. This may be because I am usually the person who is inflicting those random opposing big things -- I'm not sure.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Haha yeah Arian, 2 camps of similar lists! =)
Purgatory:
Overall your list looks absolutely fine.
Like I've alluded to in the last posts I am not a big fan of Loam but it is of course fine as others have stated, probably some preference. 2 might be overkill without more ways to really abuse them tho, especially since the 2nd almost always is dead. Maybe 2 Deed is a bit low too. Also I have been liking Disfigure over Innocent, especially in a Snapcaster heavy list, but I haven't played that much vs RUG and very few Mom decks so I am probably a bit biased. I think Mongeese you can deal with anyway though with Deed, Mishra and Clique, and vs mom decks Deed is probably very strong in general. I am also on 1 Virtue's Ruin in the board after the GP with all those DnT.
All:
I have been SUPER happy with my 2 maindeck Cliques. I think 1 main, 1 sb is the minimum and personally I could even see going as extreme as 3 maindeck with how well they have performed but I think that is probably pushing it. 2 feels really good.
Arian:
Yeah I had Cranial a few pages back and it might be the way to go but I'm concerned that is a bit too narrow and playing 2 Leyline, 1 Surgical, 1 Nihil spellbomb in the sb is a better diversifying way to both get strong GY hate slots as well as being flexible in siding in Leylines for Pfire. Surgical feels too weak to fight Pfire unless you go for the waste+grove exile as you said but since the Wastelands have been so bad for me that is not possible right now.
Yeah, ofc it's too generalizing to say "just better" but I really think, if built properly, that Shardless is much stronger vs combo than BUGStill, and in control mirrors I wonder if Visions isn't a better draw engine than Standstill as well.
I think in legacy it is too hard to control the game indefinately (vs a wide variety of decks that is) for a control deck to often just lock games out and most combo decks are so resilitent that you really need a pretty good clock, even in control decks, to have a consistent chance to beat them. I don't think BUGStills clock is quite enough for me to be comfortable, but Goyf and friends certainly are better at that job. But I only have experience with BUGStill and not Shardless so can't really make any real statements. I do agree however that many of the Shardless lists from a while back seemed really bad and not good at all at beating combo though.
Regarding Pulse:
I think it is not good enough and a bit slow vs enough decks that having 2 md concerns me. However in some MU's its so exceptional and it is nice to have an answer to big things to dig for. I like 1 md and 1 sb for now. What made me go back to that configuration from having 0 in the 75 for a while was GerryT arguing it's strength vs Esper in that it can deal with so many things from that deck (though that was for Shardless).
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
I don't have an opinion on Pulse yet. I've yet to do anything with it since I added it :|
It costs a lot for a removal spell, but I feel like it's right to hedge against things that decay/disfigure/deed can't deal with.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
I'm trying 3 Clique and really like it. I always end up using them all the freaking time, especially against Combo :smile:
-Matt
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Eldpojken: Cutting a Loam for a Deed I think. I have also experimented with -1 Loam +1 Intuition, which is also cool. Intuition can grab instants in a pinch and not only Loam and lands, and they're not really wasted since I have Snappy. But I agree that 2 Deeds is a bit low.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Purg:
I have actually been trying to build Intuition based control decks in Legacy for a looong time but I can never get anything to a satisfying level. I've attempted mostly RUG shells since you can both get Loam, EE Academy ruins as well as Loam Grove Punishing Fire.
Overall the dedicated Intuition decks have been so reliant on Intuition itself that if it doesn't resolve they don't really do much which makes the deck very fragile. Also you are vulnerable to GY hate which there is obviously plenty of in the meta and you are not even doing THAT powered things.
I have also tried running a 1-of Intuition in a number of decks, mostly with Loam, but it my experience has been that it is too expensive, slow and don't do enough. What have your experiences been?
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eldpojken
Purg:
I have actually been trying to build Intuition based control decks in Legacy for a looong time but I can never get anything to a satisfying level. I've attempted mostly RUG shells since you can both get Loam, EE Academy ruins as well as Loam Grove Punishing Fire.
Overall the dedicated Intuition decks have been so reliant on Intuition itself that if it doesn't resolve they don't really do much which makes the deck very fragile. Also you are vulnerable to GY hate which there is obviously plenty of in the meta and you are not even doing THAT powered things.
I have also tried running a 1-of Intuition in a number of decks, mostly with Loam, but it my experience has been that it is too expensive, slow and don't do enough. What have your experiences been?
This is a little OT, but if you like Intuition, you might be interested in AJ Sacher's U/W Control deck featuring Intuition, Accumulated Knowledge, and Sapphire Medallion. He later added a very light green splash for Life From The Loam and Academy Ruins / Volrath's Stronghold (I think), but I need to re-watch the twitch.tv video to check the exact list.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Intuition.html
http://www.twitch.tv/ajsacher/b/393066089
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Yeah I watched it. It for sure seems better than any of the versions I built but probably not strong enough overall. I do really like medallion with Snapcaster and Repeal though!
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eldpojken
Purg:
I have actually been trying to build Intuition based control decks in Legacy for a looong time but I can never get anything to a satisfying level. I've attempted mostly RUG shells since you can both get Loam, EE Academy ruins as well as Loam Grove Punishing Fire.
Overall the dedicated Intuition decks have been so reliant on Intuition itself that if it doesn't resolve they don't really do much which makes the deck very fragile. Also you are vulnerable to GY hate which there is obviously plenty of in the meta and you are not even doing THAT powered things.
I have also tried running a 1-of Intuition in a number of decks, mostly with Loam, but it my experience has been that it is too expensive, slow and don't do enough. What have your experiences been?
Well, it was slow and expensive, but Loam is in itself quite slow. EOT Intuition for something like Loam, Waste, Mishra is good and as I said, in a pinch one can Intuition for answers to threats and later recur them with Snapcasters.
That said, this is only if you ever feel you need more than one Loam, and even then maybe a second Loam is better than Intuition.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
What do you guys think of Liliana in the main? It serves as additional innocent blood plus with a loam engine running, it can get pretty nasty.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mike1987
What do you guys think of Liliana in the main? It serves as additional innocent blood plus with a loam engine running, it can get pretty nasty.
I tried Liliana of the Veil, and she was bad for me. Your mileage may vary.
I took first at my local last night, going 3-0-1 against a round one bye (lol), Reanimator, BUG, and Miracles.
My tech that I was evaluating was running a creature package of 3 Snaps, 1 Clique, 1 Venser, with an attending Riptide Lab in place of the 3rd Wasteland. While the package wasn't like jaw-droppingly fantastic, it was good enough to merit further testing. The 2nd Pulse is probably going to get cut for the 3rd Decay, or possibly a Far//Away. I didn't cast a Disfigure all night, but that was primarily because of matchups, I believe. I didn't miss the Innocent Bloods in the slightest, but, again, that's probably matchup-based. An alternative that I'm considering as well is to trim out one Disfigure (leaving me with 2 main) for possibly the 2nd Clique, and then put some 1cmc removal in the sideboard.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
I tried Liliana of the Veil, and she was bad for me. Your mileage may vary.
I took first at my local last night, going 3-0-1 against a round one bye (lol), Reanimator, BUG, and Miracles.
My tech that I was evaluating was running a creature package of 3 Snaps, 1 Clique, 1 Venser, with an attending Riptide Lab in place of the 3rd Wasteland. While the package wasn't like jaw-droppingly fantastic, it was good enough to merit further testing. The 2nd Pulse is probably going to get cut for the 3rd Decay, or possibly a Far//Away. I didn't cast a Disfigure all night, but that was primarily because of matchups, I believe. I didn't miss the Innocent Bloods in the slightest, but, again, that's probably matchup-based. An alternative that I'm considering as well is to trim out one Disfigure (leaving me with 2 main) for possibly the 2nd Clique, and then put some 1cmc removal in the sideboard.
My list:
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, TMS
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
--BOARD--
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 The Abyss
1 golgari Charm
3 Engineered Plague
Basically switched out Obstiante Baloths for another Thrun and The Abyss. I want to try the Abyss against Jund, since they legitimately cannot remove it. Baloths were nice in the life gain, but GG is hard sometimes. Thrun is just better at dodging Fires based removal anyway.
-Matt
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Wow, I wish that I had seen there was a BUG standstill thread when I was trying the deck out.
Matt - your list looks solid. I was unimpressed with Snapcaster as a 3-of in testing (better as a 2-of for curve reasons), but that could be due to any number of factors. Also, I think Spell Snare goes great in this deck. It's so well positioned right now. Is Dimir Charm actually good?
Hmm, no Wastelands. It seems like it would be valuable to have at least one to deal with manlands or Grove. Regarding the Jund matchup, if Punishing Fire is an issue, try Extirpate! Seriously, that card is underplayed right now. I only tested BUG landstill for a couple weeks and one tournament and I was already impressed with a 2-2 split of Extirpate and Extraction. The mana wasn't really an issue and being able to nab Bloodghasts with fetchlands on board, dredge cards with cycling lands or Street Wraith in hand, and having an uncounterable reanimator hate card was invaluable.
