Idk about firestorm main deck...
sure, it's a powerfull card, I run 3 in my sideboard, but the card is just dead useless against combo, and doesn't help in any of our hard matchups...
Printable View
Idk about firestorm main deck...
sure, it's a powerfull card, I run 3 in my sideboard, but the card is just dead useless against combo, and doesn't help in any of our hard matchups...
Agreed 100x ... As a card I've found it underwhelming against any deck packing both counters and deathrite shaman. Decks without counters like jund and elves it is amazing, but these are matchups we either race or dominate. If shard less bug or bug tempo drops a deathrite and sits behind counterspells it's quite useless. I think it's best as a sideboard card, even though it's easily one of our best sideboard cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
A card that makes the opponent have Deathrite Shaman, Force of Will/Daze and the coin flip is better than a card that makes the opponent just have Deathrite Shaman, vs BUG aggro-control it's frustrating when the opponent plays a Deathrite Shaman and has Force of Will or Daze back up, but you can play around Daze and even if the opponent counters Firestorm you can still discard multiple Dredgers. Compared to Lion's Eye Diamond, you're more resilent vs Daze because you can pay for your draw spell with Lion's Eye Diamond mana, which usually means they'll Daze the Lion's Eye Diamond in order to Time Walk into an active Deathrite Shaman. But the fact of the matter is a bare Firestorm is much better than a bare Lion's Eye Diamond in most situations, it allows you to keep a wider range of draws vs decks with significant clocks or disruptive elements like Goblins or Affinity where clearing the board and discarding your hand is much better than discarding your hand or taking the risk of DDDing into a Faithless Looting before you die.
The card is not useless vs combo, it clears the board of Goblin tokens vs Empty the Warrens, deals instant speed damage vs Ad Nauseam and kills Undercity Informer if they pass the turn and wait for their Chrome Mox to untap or a top deck mana source. If you play with the card long enough, you'll find a multitide of situations where you extract value by just killing a Delver of Secrets, dealing 3 damage to the opponent and discarding your Dredger, killing a Stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull in hand or fizzling an equip activation on Umezawa's Jitte etc or finishing them with up to 8 damage to the face.
It may not be overwhelming vs combo, but it's strictly better than Lion's Eye Diamond vs BUG and by itself more powerful than a free One With Nothing in a mulligan to 6 or 5 etc. and considering the card has so much innate synergy with the deck, like whiping the board of your own creatures, or all creatures for a Bridge from Below activation, I'm really hard pressed to find a reason not to play the card MD. LED is cool and all, but in a 3 round match it's important to learn how to win small as opposed to win big.
Most of the decks you said run counterspells or discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Against belcher it can help against empty the warrens, but it fails against goblin charbelcher, against tendrills, they usually don't go off unless the cost is clear or they are trying to rush for it.
Against reanimator the card makes the matchup even harder for us, same against SnT.
I'm not dissmising the card, I just don't know if the card is what we need right now...
But let's keep the testing!
If our main attempt to race combo is going to be firestorm then were in trouble... And if your slow dredging with a deathrite shaman any adequate opponent will save their deathrites for a narcomoeba/ichorid activation. Firestorm is good, it's just not maindeck good, I'll say putrid imp is strictly betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I don't think you guys really understand Dredge's place in the metagame, you should be doing everything you can in the MD in order to beat aggro-control and Firestorm gives you a higher win% vs aggro-control than Lion's Eye Diamond does as well as smoother mulligans overall. Even if combo is faster than us, and keep in mind Firestorm eliminates 7 of 11 of Belcher's win conditions and an entire angle of attack from TES and ANT, the archetype itself shouldn't be popular in a metagame where aggro-control is and your win% can be addressed post-board with Unmask or Leylines where our deck gets better vs theirs but their deck doesn't get better vs us.
Reanimator is a lost match up, nothing I have ever done to Dredge has managed to make it a winning match up so I'm willing to concede it as the better graveyard deck in the mirror and the worse graveyard deck in the metagame.
That leaves Show&Tell, and as weak as Firestorm appears vs Show&Tell it's important to remember that it's still an uncounterable discard outlet vs Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce and if the opponent understands his role in the match up he should be aggressively countering our outlets if we aren't aggressively discarding his combo pieces in order to leave the draw spells without dredge targets and turn them into tempo sinks.
Now, I'm not saying Firestorm is better than or equivalent to Lion's Eye Diamond vs combo, with the exception of Belcher where you have an overwhelmingly positive match up thanks to the distribution of their win conditions, but it still removes an angle of attack from Storm and increases our clock so it's not a dead card in that match up and the fact that it's uncounterable discard is highly relevant vs Show&Tell. That makes the card serviceable in most of the match ups I can think of, where the main EV is comming from a higher win percentage MD vs aggro-control and additional SB space that can be used vs combo if necessary in order to regain ground in the match up. So you're probably asking yourself why play Firestorm MD if all we're doing is sacrificing EV in the combo match up for EV in the aggro-control match up? Well just look at the distribution of the field and Top 16s in the metagame and you'll see that Deathrite Shaman has a much bigger presence than combo and Deathrite Shaman, go is a much faster, more consistent play than anything combo can do.
So if we go back to the drawing board, I think it's clear where we want to get our overall EV from vs the metagame and that's Firestorm because Rest in Peace is no longer a MD consideration for Miracles and Deathrite Shaman is now the ubiquitous MD hate card of the format. So it makes sense to move Lion's Eye Diamond out, Firestorm in and SB an additional anti-combo card like Leyline of the Void for Reanimator, Hermit Druid and ANT or maybe 4 Griselbrand (along with the 2 Dread Return in the SB) in order to take advantage of Show&Tell's symmetry or increase the clock overall.
There's a lot to be done to improve Dredge's match ups, and contrary to the other Dredge player's posts in this thread I think the metagame is actually improving for us because True Name Nemesis surplanted Tarmogoyf as the omni-present threat from aggro-control and Miracles can't afford to play RIP in the MD anymore with the presence of UWR in the metagame.
You guys can disagree as much as you like, but I haven't seen any of you do anything other than playing more of the same and then bitching about how the metagame is against you - it's basic Darwinism.
I see a lot of talking. Where are the published results?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
EDIT: I'll edit post to avoid being spam. :<
Went 3-2 Drop at the last Knigtware tournament ending up in 15th. There were 6 rounds. In retrospect I shouldn't have tried to beat traffic home and played the last round. My breakers were pretty good and prizes were being doled out to top 10. Oh well I've learned mah lesson.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...lue-dual-fetch
Started 3-0 in the day dropping my last two rounds ;____;
Round 1: TES
Game 1: He empties 12 gobbos into the field and flashes back cabal therapy (misses) leaving him with 11. I Dredge setting up a nice play next turn. He attacks for 11 and passes the turn back with a couple of cards left in hand. On my turn I cast breakthrough, therapy'd away a burning wish he had, and generated 9 zombies allowing me to stabalize and take game 1.
SB - I side in 1 Dread Return, 1 Iona, 3x Mindbreak Trap - 2 ichorid, -2 Putrid Imp, -1 Golgari Thug
Game 2: I mull to 6 and open with 2 x Mindbreak prompting me to keep. I did fear Cabal Therapy, but I didn't think he would really expect the trap. Over the course of a couple of turns he casts a pair of Infernal Tutor revealing a Dark Ritual which brings his count of to 3 in hand. Eventually he attempts to combo and when casts empty I just Mindbreak. I draw a dredger on my turn crack an LED and begin to churn out my engine. A few zombies later I take game 2.
1-0
Round 2: Death & Taxes
Game 1: I cast careful study and bin Troll and Stinkweed. He drops a vial on his turn. On my next turn I dredge and then cast breakthrough ending game 1.
SB: +3 Wispmare, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Undiscovered Paradise, - 3 Breakthrough, - 1 Golgari Thug, -1 Faithless Looting
Game 2: He mulls to 4 or 3 not being able to find hate or any relevant interaction. Over the course of a few turns I generate enough advantage to receive the concession.
2-0
Round 3: Merfolk
Game 1: He opens with Mutavault Aether vial. I'm able to cast an LED and a careful study without fear of daze binning a couple of dredgers and already being ahead. I don't remember him doing anything crazy this turn. On my turn I'm able to dredge and flashback faithless looting dredging another 12 cards. Eventually no gravehate means I can chump his fish and build my army without much struggle. I take game 1.
SB: +1 Ancient Grudge, +2 lands -3 Breakthrough NOTE: you can board in the DR and the Iona in this matchup. Depends on how aggressive you want to be.
Game 2. He mulls to 5 or 6 attempting to find some hate.
3-0
Win in in
Round 4: Elves! Ryan Ariola (Top 4)
Game 1: No deathrite shaman or meaningful interaction means I snag game 1.
SB: +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Dread Return +1 Iona -1 Golgari Thug, - 1 Putrid Imp, - Ichorid/Faithless Looting
Game 2: He drops turn 1 DRS while I open on Putrid Imp with 3 Dredgers and a couple of draw spells in hand (not too shabby). However, his turn 2 he goes nuts and ends up with a scavenging ooze and Geas Cradle and eats my entire graveyard leaving me with no resources and him with a gigantic beating Ooze.
Game 3. I mull to 3 and die....
3-1. Wheels might have just fallen off the wagon.
Round 5: Esper Stoneblade Corey Ivy (Top 4)
Game 1: I mull to 4.. and hit nothing relevant. This is just the inconsistency of the deck at work. I don't blame my losses on any particular misplays (though there might have been some), but sometimes you can't string together the correct combination of cards.
Game 2: He opens with double Nihil spellbomb and its curtains for me.
3-2
I drop as my hopes of top 8 are dashed. lol.
I'm not dismissing anything yet, not even firestorm main deck.
we need playtesting and results,but I don't think that taking LED is going to do us any good.
I'm still thinking about Street wraith, then I will move my firestorms to main and see how it does.
Also: Street wraith is bonkers main deck, but it make us go DDD a lot, and loose a lot of life (rainbow lands hurts us, coliseum hurts us, wraith hurts us)
EDIT: using firestorm instead of LED main deck saves SB space for some stuff, just saying.
I still honestly don't think firestorm in the maindeck is necessary... . We are already favored against aggro-control do to the sheer amount on non interactivity our deck is capable of. The return of esper blade i believe is a great sign for us, as esper control used to be one of my favorite things to play against as their counterspells were absolutely just useless and their board pressure wasn't anything close to terrifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Combo is actually not that bad, as LED's allow us to increases our fundamental turn on parity to that of TES and belcher. Our god hand is just as scary as belchers to any deck not playing force of will. We can race combo, always have and that should honestly just be our main plan against them. We have superior disruption in therapy that enables our kill conditions
Reanimator is tough, but it's def not lost. I would say its more or less 60/40 in their favor. But I haven't lost to reanimator since the very first FNM i went to years ago. Cabal therapy and tight plays can easily take games away from them. If they kill u turn two they kill u turn two, they god handed you (as combo decks sometimes do) and theres nothing you can do about it. I advocate flayer of the hatebound in this match up as he will essentially say you better play show and tell or else you die to a big ass grave troll, whether your elesh norn is out or not.
Show and tell is 50/50 as we can race both a griselbrand and don't care about annihilator from emrakul. If they alpha strike u, w.e, they got that game. just pick up the cards and win the next one.
I'm still of the opinion deathrite shaman is not that big of a deal on its own. With tight play it's pretty useless and you opponent will often just timewalk themselves holding it back for it's activation. Deathrite shaman plus force of will is a different story. The only decks i even expect to play that are deathblade which is on the decline, shardless bug which is on the decline, and bug delver... of those i would expect more bug delver decks to surface... i will admit firestorm will be great in that match up. However i still see it as a sideboard card, and have never thought we needed more space in our sideboards for anything. If deathblade starts making a big comback i'll be worried, but i think right now dredge will be in a great spot for a while. Our deck did just top 8 a grand prix lol
@Que, I'm 30, if I had time to go to and win SCGs and Grand Prixs I would, but I don't.
@Raikenxy
I'm willing to agree to disagree based on different metagames, for me Esperblade is dead, RUG is uncommon, UWR is the new deck on the block, Miracles doesn't play MD RIP anymore and BUG is the most popular form of aggro-control with various forms of combo here and there and Jund/Junk are the closest things to aggro I see
I'm sure LED Dredge can still put up numbers, but as far as I'm concerned the format is ran by Deathrite Shaman and I want the bastard dead. If I have to give up ground vs combo in order to gain ground vs aggro-control, I'm 100% ok with that given the distribution of those archetypes in the metagame.
@final fortuneQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
It's all good dude, agreeing to disagree is more then respectable lol.
took my list to an fnm tonight and went 3-0-1, intentionally drew the last round with my friend as we wanted to get food and just split some store credit
deathblade: 2-0
Shardless BUG: 2-1
AD Nauseum: 2-1
The list felt good, I got pretty lucky round three as ichorid beats dealt enough damage to the ANT player to make him kill himself with ad nauseum. Street wraith and putrid imp were bonkers against shardless bug.
Testing firestorm today was... interesting to say the least.
I cut 4 LEDs to try some firestorms, since I only own 3 Firestorms I used 1 dread return main to compensate.
My local meta allows me to do these stuff, but Idk about you guys.
Who would be a good repleacement for the 4th firestorm?
My stock list is a page back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
With Shaman, Ooze and Blade decks taking over the format, I can see moving LED's to the side as being a smart choice. Not only that but adding into the deck something that is commonly a 2 of in the side to prominence in the Main I think will have shock value.
Also, Stoneforge is becoming a problem. It's perfectly fine to just leave her be but if your just going to let her pass by, you want to be dame sure you can race. Also take note some people will kill Stoneforge with their own Jitte. A royal pain that.
I like the idea of a fist full of Brand, but If I was going to have any option off SnT, I like that guy that's says we draw at end of turn and their hand side is reduced by 7. Forget it's name sorry.
Jin-gitaxias, core augur is who you are thinking of my good sir
Gitaxias is a little too slow, I think he sucks as a DR target.
We are better of with things that insta-win or locks out the opponent, like griselbrand, flayer, Iona, or elesh norn, Ashen rider is passable
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
agreed, gitaxious was good in reanimator as that deck was able to protect him with counterspells. The fact that he is a mandatory draw seven can actually end up just killing you if had gone off to find him, sure your opponent has no cards in hand... but u also now have no cards in ur library... lol If you prefer the combo route of dread return then the combo has to win immediately or be so overpowering ur opponent can't do anything against it. jin-gitaxious does neither of those.
This is the list I will be using this weekend:
3- tarnished citadel
4- City of Brass
4- Gemstone mine
4- Cephalid Coliseum
3- Ichorid
4- Golgari Grave-Troll
4- Stinkweed Imp
4- Golgari Thug
4- Narcomoeba
4- Putrid Imp
3- Firestorm
3- Breakthrough
4- Careful Study
4- Faithless looting
4- Cabal therapy
4- Bridge from Bellow
SIDEBOARD:
1- Breakthrough
1- Wispmare
1- Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2- Ancient Grudge
2- Dread Return
2- Ashen Ghoul
3- Unmask
3- Chain of Vapor
I'm not really happy about my sideboard, but I think it will do OK, since I mostly board in the grudges and chains on the blind board, and elesh/DR package when I know I'll have to grind my way to victory.
I still have my doubts about going without LED, but I will test it anyway to see how it does.
idk bout you, but I personally enjoy running 4x Black Lotus in my Dredge deck. :UQuote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
yeah, me too, but there are a lot of ppl in this thread who think we don't need LED anymore, and are adding firestorm to their main decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
I need to see this for myself, as I will be in a small tour tomorrow, this tour is not on my local store so I'm not meta calling, but I think I will fail hard.
whats up??
I was searching for some decklist and noticed that some people runs leyline of the void in side. Why?? Mirror???:eek:
Thx!
Reanimator, Hermit Druid and maybe ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
As far as LED vs Firestorm MD I could honestly go either way, I just think given how much we SB out LED vs aggro-control for Firestorm that people should take MD Firestorm more seriously if they can do anything more constructive with the SB space.
But does it worth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Im asking because once upon a time i was a great dredge player. Indeed. Times were other then. There was no shaman, no rip, no ooze....i was easier. Now my love is coming back and wanna ride the wave again.
This is my decklist for insults if you wish with some explanations:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor (problably 3 tear // wear + iona)
SB: 4 Unmask
FS: for shaman and ooze maily
Unmask: for decks that mainly side in extraction effects (control) and for combo MU (depending on the case)
The other comes alone....maybe we can discuss the proportion but i think one must have destruction effects in case.
I took 13 lands and 12 dredgers for the first time. Nowadays i think that we have to see at least one land in the opening to have a chance.
THx!!
GC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I actually have no issues with your main deck. I just prefer flayer over flame kin but that's a play style preference. If anything I would take out claims and chain of vapor in your sideboard for ancient grudge wispmare and or ingot chewer. I also run Elesh and Iona in my side as hard locks against tribal and mono color decks. Outside of that I think ur main deck list very playable and competitive. No putrid imp is a lil odd tho
I think Unmask and Firestorm are mandatory SB cards if for no other reason Unmask deals with Rest in Peace and Firestorm deals with Deathrite Shaman, the rest of the board should be either removal for odd hate cards like Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage that you can't Unmask or Cabal Therapy before they resolve or additional threats to diversify vs Surgical Extraction.
I don't think cutting below 3 Putrid Imp before a singleton of Ichorid, Golgari Thug or Breakthrough is a good idea and that people constantly overrate Dread Return and combo targets for additional lands - if you're playing Lion's Eye Diamond that's combo enough - I typically only SB in Dread Return and combo targets whenever I SB out Lion's Eye Diamond.
I'm also starting to form the opinion that SB Artifact/Enchantment removal is a crutch provided the metagame is absent of Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage, those cards are completely worthless when drawn in the absence of hate compared to Unmask or Firestorm and the fact that they're useless vs Relic of Progenitus or the odd Tormod's Crypt really tilts me. Cards like the 4th Ichorid, 4th Putrid Imp, X Ashen Ghouls or even Tireless Tribes are a lot better in the SB than people give them credit for because they allow you to SB out LED and have a higher and more diverse number of business spells. Just SBing in like 3 Tireless Tribe and 1 Breakthrough vs RUG for LED is pretty amazing because you get to play around Spell Pierce and a Surgical Extraction no longer ends your game automatically.
Leyline of the Void is worth it in the sense that if you think the metagame is right for a graveyard deck, other people will also think the same thing and the only way you can beat Reanimator/Hermit Druid and the mirror consistently is to hate it directly. Otherwise your guess is as good as mine, I was just playing around with different options.
That's why I preffer Chain of vapor, not only it compliment our therapys, and can be used against any kind of non land permanent, hate or non hate, and it can be cast with any of our landsQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
And I got back for the tour (got 2nd place), firestorm was OK main deck, but what really shined today was using 15 lands, it gave my so many broken starts and double therapys ( it would be even more broken with some LEDs) and I only had to mulligan 3 times in the entire tour ( and none costed me any game), I think I will cut a putrid imp for the third tarnished citadel
EDIT: I dunno, but how hard is it to put 4 LOTV in our sideboards? the card can't be hardcasted and we need to mull a lot to find our engine pieces (land, outlet, dredger and draw), I get that the card protects our bridges from cheap tricks like bolting their own creatures, and locks out the mirror and some storm variations, I will test to find it out
I don't even think you can play the deck with less than 15 land, even with Lion's Eye Diamond, if you want to cast your spells consistently. What people don't rememver, or never understood, is that the 12 land variant was played pre Deathrite Shaman and the Draw, Discard, Dredge strategy with 4 Ichorid was still viable. Even then, we SBed 3 Tarnished Citadels in order to be able to cast our spells consistently post-board because Daze, Wasteland and Thorn of Amethyst were a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
If I had to play the deck regardless of the meta, something like;
MD
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
SB
4 Unmask
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Seems like the most logical place to start because you rely on speed game one, a board sweeper vs Deathrite Shaman game 2, Unmask vs Rest in Peace game 2 etc. and I'm starting to think that even Unmask is better than diversify your kill conditions post-board because it's better to deal with Surgical Extraction directly.
Maybe Chain of Vapor is the way to go vs Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, really depends on whether or not you're playing against the kind of guy who holds onto Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus on his 1st turn in order to make you think he doesn't have it and then plays and activates it immediately after you've invested your resources into your graveyard or the guy who doesn't play mind games and just rushes it out there so you can destroy it immediately.
I really, really hate cutting any Putrid Imps, that card is so incredibly important post-board if you want to have any outlets to enable your draw spells instead of having to use your draw spells as outlets. Maybe it's right to play the 4th Breakthrough over the 4th Putrid Imp tho', I really don't know what's better for the deck.
I used to think just like you, I have tested the deck used no putrid imps and it just sucks, but he's not all THAT needed, decks using 0 DR shaman we can just DDD or fake a slow start, and decks with DR shaman must start with one (and we can chain of vapor or firestorm it), I prefer to cut a putrid imp than cuting a golgari thug for exampleQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
You're probably right, the 4th Putrid Imp over the 4th Golgari Thug is probably a bad idea mathematically for the deck. Considering all of the draw spells, Lion's Eye Diamond and discard step can serve that function it's probably best to cut him down to three 3 - especially with Relic of Progenitus being a rarity these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
What do you think of the 4th Breakthrough over the 4th Thug? MD I think it'd be objectively stronger, but it's another card you have to SB out in certain match ups and that could be problematic.
It could work, but I still like the 4th thug more, dredging 4 times using breaktrough is nice but we relly on chain dredging to do that, and it can make a difference in the end of a big tour, so I guess I will be keeping the 4th thug, not to mention, but I see your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
When you say flayer you mean: `Flayer of the hatebound¿?Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
What would you cut to make place for PImp? the 4th thug, 1 ichorid and¿?
I would cut 1 ichorid, 4th thug, 1 faithless looting, 1 breakthroug if you want the full four pimps. You could also get by on 3 and leave either the fourth faithless or fourth breakthrough main. My current list only runs two breakthrough main as i'm running street wraith to battle deathrite shaman, but you shouldn't need more then 3 breakthrough's game one i think... most people would opt for the fourth faithless looting but i don't like drawing it with hands that only have colisseum as my land...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
and yes i meant flayer of the hatebound haha
My main point of deliberation is that while having a 4th Thug allows you to keep X additional hands, having a 4th Breakthrough allows you to gamble for the lone Dredger and chain Dredgers. Meh, that's probably horrific variance tho', so yeah I'm going to update my list with 3 Imps and 4 Thugs and stop advocating otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad Teppes
Post-board I guess you have to hope 3 Putrid Imp, 3 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study, 4 Faithless Looting, 4 Cabal Therapy and possibly your discard step are enough discard outlets for when you have to SB in Nature's Claim on the draw.
don't worry, math is on our side, the problem is daze+ wasteland when trying to go for the anti hate plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
it usually involves crazy DDD stuff and blind therapys, or just oppening with multiple lands
Any thoughts on my build would be greatly appreciated, just like cid I am a returning player.
Lands: 12
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
Critters: 24
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
Spells: 24
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Side: 15
4 Firestorm
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
Reasons as follows: We win our game 1 most of the time anyway, dread return into iona or flamekin only helps us in our combo matchups. Flamekin and Iona are both not needed IMO because they both achieve the same thing but in a different way. Iona hoses their combo colors, where as flamekin helps us race them. The side I am not sure about as much but I feel having solid outs to everything is good going into an unknown meta. Unmask is good on the play, but if we win our game 1 we are not going to be on the play and I would rather have more anti-hate to adjust accordingly.
The Quodlazer-List is solid (I would add a Land and a 1-off DR for 1 Ichorid and 1 Breakthrough, but that is personal preference), but you will definitely need more Lands in your Board to support your Antihate. With 8 coloured sources you will have serious trouble to cast your precious Claims and Firestorms consistently through all the Dazes, Pierces and Wastelands. I would highly recommend 14-15 Lands in your 75 to, you know, cast some spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by helghast101
What to drop for more lands you think? -1vapor-1claim for 2 citadel or?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
I don't think you need both Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor, I would drop the Claims for lands in your case.
I stop playing magic for a little while and you guys have resorted to sideboarding Unmasks and taking LEDs out against RuG?!?! This thread looks like the aftermath of a doomsday movie.
Don't take LED out when playing against Rug. They run a lot of taxing counters, let that sink in for a second.
LED costs zero and is an additional discard outlet while paying for daze and spell pierce to resolve more important spells like Care Study & Breakthrough.
Also, Unmask is awful. It is one of those cards that are good on paper but not in reality. The deck mulls enough as is. To have a hand that can properly abuse Unmask it would have to look like this:
Land+Dredger+Discard Outlet+Draw Spell+Unmask+Xtra Black Card. Unmask will effectively suck in hands with less than six cards. I will concede that Unmask is good when you get it in a playable hand; the only problem is getting Unmask in a playable hand.