[Deck] Imperial Painter

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Originally Posted by mcbain

I thought the pithing needle was a bit odd over a revoker (the recruiter target). Although in reading your report you board the needle in for every occasion. How did you find it specifically? Should it be a needle? Revoker?

Please elaborate

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In my opinion Needle is better against decks with lot's of removal for creatures (Miracles, UWR Blade-Decks and post board SneakShow with Pyroclasm, although I'm not sure if they board it in against us). Against DnT I would prefer Revoker, but the DnT list I played against, had 4 Ghost Quarters and Leonin Arbiters in addition to the rest of mana denial strategy. So I wasn't sure, maybe at some point I would like to name a Land with Needle.
Against Lands I usually name Thespian Stage, because post board they have removal against Moon and Bridge, so I have another way to interrupt their combo.
I like the split of one Needle and one Revoker (never really needed a second Revoker and virtually you have more Revokers with Recruiter anyway. With Goblin Welder there is another option to rename a Revoker).

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

Uroborian,
What was the list you run Mask in?

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As uroborian said, keep discussion of NO painter to the other thread.

For imperial painter 1 uba mask in the sideboard is something I've pondered about for a while, basically for the reasons that uroborian mentioned.

When you can get double welder going there is no greater thing in magic.

there's a whole lot of rules you need to be wary/knowledgeble about with Uba mask. I learned a lot real quick playing it. But if you do you will most likely get props from anyone watching your match if you play it.

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Originally Posted by Uroborian

there's a whole lot of rules you need to be wary/knowledgeble about with Uba mask. I learned a lot real quick playing it. But if you do you will most likely get props from anyone watching your match if you play it.

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I was at the event you were at and was very excited to see Uba Mask being played.

Props!

So, Uba Mask was somewhat intriguing to me so I tested it against Omni-Tell a bunch. Unfortunately, it was almost worthless. The only cards it shuts off are the cantrips. They can still play Dig Through time, Intuition, and Cunning Wish to full effect. I played several games where I dropped the mask with the show and tell and the opponent just went off around it with the above cards. Sorry, I just didn't find it very useful.
The only full-proof strategy that I have found so far is canonist. If we drop canonist in with the show and tell we can then blast the omniscience without them being able to respond. You just have to hope that they aren't dropping Emrakul directly with the show and tell.

Non strategy related question here:

For you guys playing the W/R version of this deck (I assume most of you)... what version of Plateau do you guys run and which is the preferred one? This dual land is kind of unique in that it has two very different sets of art - the Drew Tucker art on the Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited versions and the Cornelius Brudi art on the Revised and FBB versions.

So which Plateaus do you play and which do you think are the best option regardless of cost? I personally think the Brudi artwork is probably better, and the best version of this is the FBB dual because it's black bordered and the color is richer than the Revised version. Because of the art difference, I might actually consider the FBB Plateau superior to the Alpha/Beta Plateau.

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Originally Posted by MGB

Non strategy related question here:

For you guys playing the W/R version of this deck (I assume most of you)... what version of Plateau do you guys run and which is the preferred one? This dual land is kind of unique in that it has two very different sets of art - the Drew Tucker art on the Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited versions and the Cornelius Brudi art on the Revised and FBB versions.

So which Plateaus do you play and which do you think are the best option regardless of cost? I personally think the Brudi artwork is probably better, and the best version of this is the FBB dual because it's black bordered and the color is richer than the Revised version. Because of the art difference, I might actually consider the FBB Plateau superior to the Alpha/Beta Plateau.

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Don't own a plateau or painter deck. But I like Drew Tucker's artwork. His "abstractionism" style is unique to all the MTG arts.

Okay; IMO best art is Noah Bradleys from Vintage Masters :P but yes in paper i prefer the FBB ones above all; i have the 3rd edition and do think the artwork beats the first running. To me the first one looks like something badlands should've been and not plateau. (The need to print those damned duals that have the online art! so good)

So no one has any tech that works? I'm about 73% win rate with my current list for those who care or for those with deferent technique. Interested to listen to others style and lists.

I'm pretty positive after board using canonist and blasts and jaya against Omnitell. Running 3 e-tutor post board, very similar to Jack's list. I play two Canonist SB, instead of one. Not running Sphere of Law.

I split the finals of our local spring classic playing shortcake.

Beat 2 shard less, DnT, 2 miracles, infect and something else. Lost to TES in close games in round 2 and DnT in the finals when we played it out. Overall I was happy with the majority but disappointed with some of my sideboard slots.

Main: stock list with 1 deretti which was awesome. I drew him lots and he was never bad. Got me out of spots welder wouldn't have. Discard and elect not to draw to hide behind bridge.

Side:
2 canonist
2 containment priest
1 koth
1 ratchet bomb
1 rest in peace
1 pithing needle
1 Trinisphere
1 viashino heretic
2 sudden shock
1 sudden demise
1 X

Overall I wish I had more koth and played more burn of sorts. Sudden shock was quite good against DnT and infect. Sudden impact was good for 2-3 for ones against DnT elves or Bob, DRS, etc. Ratchet bomb was nice against miracles but could have easily been explosives. Pithing needle was good and I am going to test it more. I really like heretic he is like a better jaya in lots of places and is a must answer. With the R2 casting cost you can run him out early too.

Will add more later.

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Originally Posted by mcbain

Main: stock list with 1 deretti which was awesome.

Side:
2 canonist
2 containment priest
1 koth
1 ratchet bomb
1 rest in peace
1 pithing needle
1 Trinisphere
1 viashino heretic
2 sudden shock
1 sudden demise
1 X

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2 questions:

1. What did you take out for Deretti?

2. What are the last two cards in your board?

1. The other two cards were an ensnaring bridge and hedge mage.

2. I only played 2 top for the deretti slot. Creature base with 3 welders 1 magus 1 jaya.

Also other match up was a on camera painter mirror which I 2-0

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Originally Posted by mcbain

1. The other two cards were an ensnaring bridge and hedge mage.

2. I only played 2 top for the deretti slot. Creature base with 3 welders 1 magus 1 jaya.

Also other match up was a on camera painter mirror which I 2-0

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You are playing both hedge Mage and heretic? Seems redundant. I've gone back and forth a little between the two, but with Omnitell gaining popularity in sticking with hedge Mage.

Speaking of omnitell, I've decided to split my alt win cons between one Koth and one processor. Processor seems particularly good against show and tell, as even if they drop Emrakul you drop processor on 16+ and they have to block. Also decent against miracles and other very controlling MUs.

I switched out magus for revoker in the main but I'm still not convinced. Revoker is just too easy to get rid of. I still like chandra as my one of planeswalker in the main. Her utility is just too good. Im also waffling on a 2/3 split between top and welder. Anyone have a great argument for one bs the other? I'm on the 3 recruiter train with Jaya and a Canonist main.


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Originally Posted by mcbain

Main: stock list with 1 deretti which was awesome. I drew him lots and he was never bad. Got me out of spots welder wouldn't have. Discard and elect not to draw to hide behind bridge.

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I feel like the way Daretti is worded you can't choose to not draw since it says "Discard up to two cards, then draw that many cards" there is no may clause. Now correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't want to be making a play mistake during a big tourney.

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Originally Posted by Milo687

I feel like the way Daretti is worded you can't choose to not draw since it says "Discard up to two cards, then draw that many cards" there is no may clause. Now correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't want to be making a play mistake during a big tourney.

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Thanks. Sorry I just wrote what somewhat quickly. You are correct. I would have been thinking of the ability to plus him without the requirements of discarding.

I have really been on the fence about deretti but he does do one thing. He advances our combo. He is really deadly with an active welder I play as well.

I have also been impressed with viashino heretic, he is strong in many matchups with equipment, multiple equipment, needle, and revokers. Even top, especially in response to shuffle effects.

I played yesterday with RW painter in a trial (52 participants). It went horribly. I ended 2-4.
R1 Shardless BUG 2-1
Blood Moon does what it does best.
R2 Elves 1-2
G1 fast combo for me. G2 was a very fun game with lots of interaction, but a wirewood & sage spell doom for me. G3 I'm stuck on 2 mana and he comboes T4.
R3 Death & Taxes 1-2
G1 Blood Moon T1 for the win. G2 he has double ORing for both my Painters, Plow for Magus, Needle for stone and wastelands & Ports to put the pressure on my manabase. G3 I'm again stuck on 2 land with a hand full of 3drops.
R4 Omnitell 1-2
G1 I assemble the combo, but pass the turn with 3 mana open (thinking Emrakul is in his list). On his turn he goes Show & Tell, Omniscience, Wish, enter the Infinite, Wish, Research, Enter, Lab Maniac, Ponder. You see where I dropped the ball? I was to confused to see it the moment self. G2 T1 Painter + stone. G3 again stuck on 2 mana (2 Mountains) and he comboes T4.
R5 Dark Maverick 1-2
G1 T2 Blood Moon is enough. G2 I can't find a stone or Tutor in time despite Top and several shuffles. G3 begins good with a T2 Blood Moon, but unfortunately he has the decay. The following turns Needle on stone, double Pridemage and tripple Knight are more then enough to bash in my head.
R6 is a no show. 2-0

A fun day, but dissapointing results.

Over the last few pages there has been an underlying theme: what to do about Omni tell. For the most part what I have gathered over the years of discussion on this is: there is no correct answer, but you should have a very precise plan on what your going to do.

1. Death and taxes route of hate bears (canonist, Jaya, containment priest, magus, painter). Distrupt and beat down. Typically you cannot be aggressive here. This means you ALWAYS represent at least one blast. Never tap out. Board out your grindstone and some blood moons.

2. Three card combo. This means crypt or RIP. Light on bears and heavy on control.

3. Koth of the hammer. This is somewhat a blend of the two. No need for grindstone and some blood moons. Keep your bridges, quite often omni will just 15/15 you. Play slow.

For the most part I have had success with all 3 routes, often having 2/3 options open to you during most games. Overall omni will tend to sculpt nay unstoppable hands over the course of a few turns. Fortunately are one of the few decks that actually runs 7-8 blast effects. Save your blasts for their cards and always represent at least one blast for our cards. If they count it that's fine, find your next route to victory.

My personal preference is the bear plan. I don't like the RIP method overall.

I would generally agree with the hate bear strategy. Unfortunately, the only true hate bears for this deck would be canonist, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg (which we can't play) and to some degree spirit of the labyrinth. Containment priest, Jaya and magus have some utility and deliver some beats but are mediocre. Like I stated previously, canonist plus a blast is by far our best option.
Also, after testing the MU a lot I have to agree with Mapson that we could almost just take the grindstones out and plan on beating them down. The likelihood of getting the combo plus grave hate out is unlikely. However, if you have 2 welders out remember you can combo out with tormods crypt by targeting yourself first and then target them and flip in crypt. They will have to draw first and will therefore lose first to an empty library. This assumes you have at least 6 mana.


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Sry drude, but I honestly don't get what you refer to with the two welders. Can't you just win directly by activating crypt after the Eldrazi triggers are put on the stack or what am I missing?

Ya. Not sure what your getting at. Trigger on the stack, crypt you.

Ah - finally... crypt still in your deck not on your hand!
Nice move! Didn't think of that before your comment. Thanks!

Haven't done that one yet. Looking forward to it. I love it when people's jaw drops when welder does very very broken things.

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Originally Posted by mcbain

Haven't done that one yet. Looking forward to it. I love it when people's jaw drops when welder does very very broken things.

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Am goblins player.

Can confirm my jaw did drop first time i saw the old activate grindstone, weld in painter. I can't even be mad.

See, that's not even broken things. Just a good ol' interaction that'll gib some people

Welder gets filthy when welding in a revoker naming the thing they're attempting, or pretending to stall out on mana but bring that one lotus petal out for the final mana after the opp shifted their play

it's good times

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Originally Posted by jandax

See, that's not even broken things. Just a good ol' interaction that'll gib some people

Welder gets filthy when welding in a revoker naming the thing they're attempting, or pretending to stall out on mana but bring that one lotus petal out for the final mana after the opp shifted their play

it's good times

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I'm a big fan of the deck. One day when I finally put down my pathetic deck, (death and taxes is far too boring for me to move to) I'll start playing painter.

What are people doing for grixis pyromancer besides the obvious of blood moon and fast combo god hand.

I haven't played much against it but it's been unfavorable so far. Could just be lack of luck with t1 fow and misboarding by shaving mana and tutors since they have better late game. I've been thinking that I can probably drop the sphere of law and go back to praying against burn. 8th blast? Shard phoenix? Leaning the blast since miracles is still at large but will listen to opinions on the matchup

Grixis Pyro is a lot less scary than u/r delver in my opinion. I played a bit against it last weekend, and found that Sudden Shock/Firebolt is enough to contain pyromancers if you kill them off immediately. I also think keeping opening hands that are less susceptible to Cabal Therapy helped me a lot. In 2 games, I kept 4-5 landers with a top, and won pretty easily since they don't have a ton in the way of mana denial. Goblin Welder is also super strong as the usual insurance/removal sponge role.

Maybe a sweeper/EE would be helpful, or sphere of law if you have it, but without swiftspears and treasure cruise, the matchup feels pretty beatable to me at least.

First we have two decks which play somewhat differently, one more aggressive and one more controlling (i.e., delver or not). My experience is more centered around the pyromancer control version which I lost in the finals to at a recent legacy tourney. I was playing something similar to your deck you won the SCG with and boarded the Sphere in among other things.

For the most part my opponents will play a very conservative game, electing to develop their basics, hold up counters, etc. Pyromancer is often a turn 3-4 play. To make things more difficult the deck plays 4 lightning bolts as well as other cards to disrupt your combo (force, therapy, pyroblast, counterspell) not to mention things like surgical extraction and blue blast out of the sideboard which can be snapcastered. Even worse are one of's like Dack and Null Rod.

Overall I would say this is a challenging matchup assuming the opponent knows their deck and knows their role. Jack, you mentioned a fast blood moon or combo which I would agree are both somewhat reasonable plays. I would be tempted to shave some blood moon effects on the draw as your opponent will likely fetch their basic, have discard, or have a counter. Thorn, 3sphere, canoist, rest in peace, sphere of law, and firebolts are all cards against them. Having played Grixis I can attest that anything which slows your game plan down and makes your digs harder to cast is a good thing. Because Grixis is scared of your combo they will typically not fight over firebolts which kill their few threats and elect to let them resolve in fear of the combo kill. Further to that point I found red blasting the Dig through time very strong.

I would tend to play the match up more as a death and taxes control role. Take the velocity out of their deck, play like your going to kill them at any point (which you can), not over extend. Cards like sphere are quite strong against them because it makes them actually commit to something, not just incidentally win with a bunch of tokens made over the course of five turns.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of the above. Fast moons slow them down. Obviously bringing in creature removal (I have moved to 3 sudden shocks in board) and the sphere are good. I am still playing leylines which I tend to bring in against them so they can't therapy or bolt me. This is also one match-up where, if I were playing Assemble the legion over processor, I would consider bringing it in as well, as they have very few answers to it if it sticks. Otherwise, sphere is obviously really good if you can get it to stick. And given the popularity of this deck recently, I think sphere has successfully avoided the chopping block for me. Now I'm still just wavering between Assemble and Processor in the board and Magus vs Revoker getting the nod in the main.

Should I lean on E. Bridge in this matchup? They might not have enough removal to stop welders and painters, it would be a long game but it might have a shot.

You're reasoning your question with speculation. Maybe that says something already, or maybe you're asking the wrong questions

And am I doing something wrong by running pyroclasm over Firebolt/sudden shock? Haven't played for months, going to a local this weekend, thus blind.

I ran sudden Demise to some effect last weekend. Similar role but can be used with painter to great effect.

Been thinkin of building this deck as my second one, but have a couple of questions.

Are the white really necessary? I quite dislike enlightment tutor :S but I like the sideboard cards.

Is any other color been tried before? Pure curiosity

Is Jaya really situatuional? Never seen someone play it although is always in every deck. Maybe just been unlucky in the games I watched.

And why Firebolt instead of swords? Is it the lack of access to white?

Thanks for the help :)

White necessary? Short answer is no. It simply is a variant that changes certain MU and speed.

Splashes from front page

White – Enlightened Tutor, Stoneforge Mystic, Ethersworn Canonist, others
Black – Perish, Nature’s Ruin, Dark Confidant, others
Blue – Trinket Mage, Laboratory Maniac, others
No record of Green splash (with imperial painter)

Jaya? She's great value and games have been won with her when no other card could've.

STP/ firebolt? Correct the white mana isn't very consistent to allow mainboarded STP in most shortcake lists.

I would just build a standard mono red deck to start, perhaps one johnothan Suarez or leejay has played. The mono red deck can be more robust and teaches you the fundamentals of painter before you start getting fancy with splashes.

I also think starting with mono red is a good idea. Though the decks are very very similar, it's less punishing of mistakes, and gives you the foundation of knowledge to make the call on the white splash for yourself and the metagame.

Generally speaking, r/w is less "overkill" in good matchups, but stronger against bad ones.

I think the most popular alternate secondary color is blue, as you can intuition for key pieces and use welder to bounce things in and out of play as necessary. You can also then play brainstorm and/or transmute artifact as well to help find combo pieces. The most frustrating thing about the mono red version is that it feels like you tend to get into top deck mode more often and when you are looking for combo pieces, that can be very frustrating.


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Originally Posted by drude1

I think the most popular alternate secondary color is blue, as you can intuition for key pieces and use welder to bounce things in and out of play as necessary. You can also then play brainstorm and/or transmute artifact as well to help find combo pieces. The most frustrating thing about the mono red version is that it feels like you tend to get into top deck mode more often and when you are looking for combo pieces, that can be very frustrating.


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Says the player under a blood moon effect waiting to top deck their one or two basic lands while being beaten down by a Grey ogre.

From GP kyoto:

OmniTell and Delver decks are among the most popular at the top tables, but mixed in are many others including Miracles, Infect, Death and Taxes, and Elves. Even 9-0 player Ryuichi Shirakihara ran the tables with Charbelcher today.

Looks like we need to ensure our UR delver matchup and omni matchup is better if we want to bring down a big tourney.