[Primer/Deck] Pox

So, for Pox Sideboards, I think having less than two pithing needle is just wrong, as you will always have something relevant to name in a surprisingly large number of matches (Jace the Mind Sculptor, Rishadan Port, Aether Vial, Thespian Stage, Knight of the Reliquary, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Karn Liberated, Sensei's Divining Top, Scalding Tarn to name a few...) and I think you should have at least four relevant GY hate cards (Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Nihil spellbomb, surgical extraction. those are the 5 that i usually rotate between depending on what i expect.) I also usually aim for 3-5 board wipes or removal spells depending on how i feel the meta will line up. one is usually Night of Soul's Betrayal, Dread of Night or Engineered plague, the others are usually between BSZ and Toxic Deluge, with spinning darkness, murderous cut, and collective brutality for the point and click spots (collective brutality is phenomenal by the way. just putting that out there.) The rest of the SB slots can be tuning those numbers, adding more tax effects ( I like a second nether void in the 75 somewhere, but trinisphere and sphere of resistance do similar things) against the combo decks, additional discard rarely hurts (hey, collective brutality...) or golden bullets for whatever matchup you just don't want to lose to (deathgrasp and gloom vs enchantress, pox vs miracles, sun droplet vs burn, to name a few.)

I think that Liliana the Last Hope is a card that i'm going to keep two copies of around because she seems absolutely bananas if the meta shifts towards D&T, which it looks like wizards is pushing a fair bit. She also seems very good at playing a second copy of The Abyss vs. Elves and Goblins if the meta slants that direction. I don't see her being more than two in the 75, and it would take a very special set of circumstances for her to be a main board slot, but most of that comes from sharing a planes walker subtype with ms. veil, who helps make our deck click together and hum as efficiently as it does. That said, I can see a meta (or a budget constraint) where a 3-1 split in the main with another of either (or both) in the board is worth talking about, partially because she does, as mentioned, just end the game in a hurry (especially in the miracles and Shardless matches). I would be less shy about it if her -2 was relevant to non-tombstalker or loam versions of the deck.

I have started running nihil spellbomb in th the main. Very useful against any lands deck.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I have started running nihil spellbomb in th the main. Very useful against any lands deck.

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right now, the only gravehate that i'd run in the main is surgical extraction..though what shines in spellbomb is that it cantrips..

My revised sideboard after reading suggestions:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Toxic Deluge

Leftover in my binder:
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Empty the Pits
1 Grim Tutor
1 Word of Command
1 Underworld dreams
4 Dread of Night
3 Engineered Plague
1 Flaying Tendrils
4 Thoughtseize

Since you want to test cards why not try this one? Bitter Ordeal Would work well with cantrips like Nihil spellbomb and also dredge cards (!).
I 'may' try it since I got it already and also play some dredge cards. Like - dredge Dakmor salvage, discard Dakmor to Liliana, play Ordeal for storm four.
Technically storm is difficult for MONO-B but since Gravestorm count cards going to any graveyard from ANYWHERE...

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Since you want to test cards why not try this one? Bitter Ordeal Would work well with cantrips like Nihil spellbomb and also dredge cards (!).
I 'may' try it since I got it already and also play some dredge cards. Like - dredge Dakmor salvage, discard Dakmor to Liliana, play Ordeal for storm four.
Technically storm is difficult for MONO-B but since Gravestorm count cards going to any graveyard from ANYWHERE...

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if you're looking for that kind of effect, then Sadistic Sacrament is more efficient even without kicking it..and i think i prefer praetor's grasp than bitter ordeal....but i don't think that's what our deck really want to be doing..i personally don't see any other "extraction" effect i'd run in pox outside of surgical extraction or extirpate..

I agree about bitter ordeal. The card is definitely cool and while we can definitely build to optimize it, it's likely better to run something like sadistic sacrament. I would even prefer to run cranial extraction or memoricide over ideal if you're really interested in proactively taking something from your opponents deck.

I concur. Getting one card is not great because they could just find another one when they have multiple copies. If it removed all copies with the same name that would be awesome...though it would be super busted.

So, am I the only one thinking that throne of the high city could be a singleton land that just busts the miracles matchup wide open?

Quitrex, that seems very good. I didn't realize the Monarch cards will be legal in Legacy/Vintage.


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Originally Posted by Quitrex

So, am I the only one thinking that throne of the high city could be a singleton land that just busts the miracles matchup wide open?

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You have to be careful though as an EOT Snapcaster or Clique can ruin the monarch plan. Maybe pack some instant removal for protection?

Drawing extra cards could mean things like murderous cut and spinning darkness would work out fine

Has anyone though about Braids Cabal Minion?

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Originally Posted by Epeirogeny

Has anyone though about Braids Cabal Minion?

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Ya, it's quite good with Ophidiomancer



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Originally Posted by Quitrex

So, am I the only one thinking that throne of the high city could be a singleton land that just busts the miracles matchup wide open?

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How exactly would that work?:eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

How exactly would that work?:eyebrow:

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Sacrifice the land to become the monarch. Draw extra cards each turn. Hope they don't have a flash guy to take it from you and get way ahead.

Throne of the High City just seems really bad. Five mana to become the Monarch. More likely than not you might get 1 or 2 cards off it before your opponent becomes the monarch vs most decks. It's yet another colorless mana source. Just play Coercive Portal. You might get lucky and get a board wipe vote out of it when needed to boot.

Ah ok, had to look up the new term borrowed from Vampire: the Masquerade apparently.

At the beginning of the end step, the monarch draws an extra card? If a creature bitch slaps the monarch, that creature's controller becomes the monarch to be bitch slapped in turn... :laugh:

That Coercive Portal and Bottled Cloister both seem better. Being a monarch in safety means your enemy has an empty hand so they're not flashing anything in or has no creatures on the field. That usually equates to 'win more'. The Portal as mentioned could nuke the table but more likely than not, your opponent will just vote homage before murdering you with flying 4/4 angels. I'm not a fan of these vote cards. Even the black will of the council cards: Tyrant's Choice or Bite of the Black Rose are kind of blah*.

These new sets don't print out much love for lower tier decks... :frown:

I also agree that 5 mana and a land is too high a price to pay for extra cards. Heck, I experimented with the basic Phyrexian Arena and that card didn't do what I needed when I needed it. Reid Duke himself experimented with Bottle Cloister with Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard and that deck wasn't 'good enough' I suppose.

Aren't black cards like Hymn to Tourach or Drown in Sorrow or Mutilate enough card advantage for us?

They're all fine, but they don't do much vs miracles. They gave us collective brutality, which I have been impressed with every time I've put it on the stack. It doesn't hit their mana base, and it isn't actual advantage, but against most of the decks it does a very good job at turning one spell into a 2for2 or 3for3 against most of the decks you want to force into a top deck war. anyone got some tips for a veteran explorer heavy meta? We have 4 of our 12 regulars building that shell, and it's been bloody irritating.

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Originally Posted by Quitrex

They're all fine, but they don't do much vs miracles. They gave us collective brutality, which I have been impressed with every time I've put it on the stack. It doesn't hit their mana base, and it isn't actual advantage, but against most of the decks it does a very good job at turning one spell into a 2for2 or 3for3 against most of the decks you want to force into a top deck war. anyone got some tips for a veteran explorer heavy meta? We have 4 of our 12 regulars building that shell, and it's been bloody irritating.

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I personally found nic fit style decks to be quite favorable. Mostly because they ramp us as well. I was on bw at the time however. Turn 2 after a mox diamond I left him with 1 land in play and a liliana with 1 loyalty on my side. If you have any kind of acceleration hand you can pretty much sinkhole a land, smallpox and innocent blood to handle everything they have done, plus set them back to a land. But remember the more land they give you early the more action you draw later and your spells should put you on top. If you can even hymn, then smallpox they will.likely have no hand and barely any resources to play the midrange creatures they are hoping to play past turn 2

Pox friends,

I love pox and play it in casual and in tourneys. After lots of messing around with lists, I made my own list now which is a clear pox deck, on the other hand it is different enough to deserve its own thread, so I made one. It features dark confidant and other awesome additions and it can even be played red for blood moon.

I hope you don't mind for posting it here in the pox thread because I`m very curious what you think and would be happy if you post in my thread. Because it's too different to be posted here.

Cool pox list - click me

Fair, I don't actually have sinkholes in my deck at the moment, so that likely accounts for some of it. It also feels like they usually draw fairly well vs me. T1, therapy your smallpoxes, t2 double explorer or explorer, flashback, drop a finks or an ashiok, t3 sculptor or pod out the finks is obnoxious. I guess that means that another portion of my losing is that they know what I'm on and how to play against it which is less likely at a larger tourney. I've considered going b/w for a couple vindicate main and (exclusively a local meta call) 3 geddon in the board... Seems like it would slow them down.

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Originally Posted by Cuddlecow

Pox friends,

I love pox and play it in casual and in tourneys. After lots of messing around with lists, I made my own list now which is a clear pox deck, on the other hand it is different enough to deserve its own thread, so I made one. It features dark confidant and other awesome additions and it can even be played red for blood moon.

I hope you don't mind for posting it here in the pox thread because I`m very curious what you think and would be happy if you post in my thread. Because it's too different to be posted here.

Cool pox list - click me

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I was looking at the list and I honestly think it needs/wants smallpox. Not a fan of rain of tears. But how has it been going for you? Also I don't agree that you can support blood moon with only 7 basic swamp alongside 10 non basics.

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Originally Posted by Cuddlecow

Cool pox list - click me

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There's no symmetrical spells in that deck. Liliana at most. No Smallpox or Pox. I'd call it 'false pox list'. I think it'd be better off posted in a standard black control thread.

Do we change the name of the deck if it's discovered that both Pox and Smallpox can no longer cut it maindeck? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

There's no symmetrical spells in that deck. Liliana at most. No Smallpox or Pox. I'd call it 'false pox list'. I think it'd be better off posted in a standard black control thread.

Do we change the name of the deck if it's discovered that both Pox and Smallpox can no longer cut it maindeck? :laugh:

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Haha. I agree. Not to mention smallpox is likely one of our best cards in the deck. Most opponents take it if they cast discard against me.

OK I won't try to discuss my list anymore in this thread, but I want to correct that "no symmetrical" spells statement, wait a min.

I have Back to Basics / Blood Moon, Liliana and Chalice.
My symmetry is far heavier than traditional pox, and the same way a traditional pox player breaks the symmetry by using nether spirits or building the deck in such a way that smallpox hurts ourselves less than the opponent, I break the symmetry by not using cc1 spells and using a manabase that is acceptable under a moon effect. (Mox works under a moon!)

I think it feels very poxy it's just my symmetric effects are BtB/Chalice instead of smallpox and my breaking of symmetry as such is different, but I think these effects are very powerful and allow playing with creatures. I mean that's my opinion so don't take it too seriously. But I did put a lot effort into my starting post and hope you like it regardless of whether you appreciate the deck itself.
Best of luck!

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Originally Posted by Cuddlecow

OK I won't try to discuss my list anymore in this thread, but I want to correct that "no symmetrical" spells statement, wait a min.

I have Back to Basics / Blood Moon, Liliana and Chalice.
My symmetry is far heavier than traditional pox, and the same way a traditional pox player breaks the symmetry by using nether spirits or building the deck in such a way that smallpox hurts ourselves less than the opponent, I break the symmetry by not using cc1 spells and using a manabase that is acceptable under a moon effect. (Mox works under a moon!)

I think it feels very poxy it's just my symmetric effects are BtB/Chalice instead of smallpox and my breaking of symmetry as such is different, but I think these effects are very powerful and allow playing with creatures. I mean that's my opinion so don't take it too seriously. But I did put a lot effort into my starting post and hope you like it regardless of whether you appreciate the deck itself.
Best of luck!

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Honestly the mana base is really tough to start. I don't think I would want blood moon in the list. An early blood moon with single swamp could just mean that you lose and your draws are more likely to produce non basic lands than swamps given the numbers. Back to Basics is fine as is. The only issue is opponents that run basics already, and the fact that you can play spells as you need them usually to mitigate the enchantments effect a bit. Which is fine, because it is still providing disruption. I honestly just think the deck really actually wants smallpox. I'm really not a fan of rain. I would rather run trickbind to punish my opponent wanting to fetch. It can make the back to basics even harder for them to play around.

I am definitely not the most experienced player around here, but I would say that 50/60 cards in the mono black pox, B&W, and B&G builds are solved builds. The last 10 slots are always debatable and changeable based on the meta. And I don't think blue ever worked unless you wanted to swap those last 10 spots with Brainstorm and Ponder for consistency. Or just throw in Sensei's Top and Counterbalance, since the combination of the two seems to be very powerful.

I think Wasteland is better than Rain of Tears simply because at 3 mana you ideally want Liliana on the field.
Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual is too much ramp for a deck that wants to play the long game. They can be dead draws the longer the game goes. And would rather take out Chrome Mox for creature removal.
Because creature removal in black like Innocent blood and... (small)pox hit both players you want less creatures.
Because you need less creatures you like manlands like Mishra's Factory as a threat.
Because you need less creatures you like Cursed Scroll as a threat (Helps ping planeswalkers too)
Since you now want to play 1 mana spells like Innocent blood, you remove Chalice. I do not like Trinisphere either because most of our spells cost less than 3


Perhaps I cannot think out of the box, but my train of thought tends to just mold into the traditional pox build. Hopefully you prove me wrong, since I love the fact that legacy is such a wide format and not always solved.

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Originally Posted by Epeirogeny

I am definitely not the most experienced player around here, but I would say that 50/60 cards in the mono black pox, B&W, and B&G builds are solved builds. The last 10 slots are always debatable and changeable based on the meta. And I don't think blue ever worked unless you wanted to swap those last 10 spots with Brainstorm and Ponder for consistency. Or just throw in Sensei's Top and Counterbalance, since the combination of the two seems to be very powerful.

I think Wasteland is better than Rain of Tears simply because at 3 mana you ideally want Liliana on the field.
Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual is too much ramp for a deck that wants to play the long game. They can be dead draws the longer the game goes. And would rather take out Chrome Mox for creature removal.
Because creature removal in black like Innocent blood and... (small)pox hit both players you want less creatures.
Because you need less creatures you like manlands like Mishra's Factory as a threat.
Because you need less creatures you like Cursed Scroll as a threat (Helps ping planeswalkers too)
Since you now want to play 1 mana spells like Innocent blood, you remove Chalice. I do not like Trinisphere either because most of our spells cost less than 3


Perhaps I cannot think out of the box, but my train of thought tends to just mold into the traditional pox build. Hopefully you prove me wrong, since I love the fact that legacy is such a wide format and not always solved.

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Rather than the rack I would love to see Black Vise in this build since the goal is to hard deny any mana in order to cast spells.
Another potential win condition could be something along the lines of liliana's caress. Again, trying to keep cards in their hand they will either discard during clean up or when they are forced to discard due to our abilities.

Solved Pox decks. Interesting. Here's what we've known to be in the vast majority of pox decks and I'm wondering, what do we remove for Collective Brutality as I'm pretty much at a loss...

1-2 Nether Spirit
1-3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn
4 Inquisition/Thoughtseize/1 cmc discard
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's
24-26 lands

That's 50-55 cards leaving just 5-10 'flex slots'. Good heavens! What an inflexible shell the Pox deck has! :eek: It would seem that the Dark Ritual and Innocent Blood x4 are starting to 'phase out' as it were but I do love me some turn 1 Liliana on the play. I also love me some Sinkhole so I have even less flex slots than that.

What would you remove to insert Collective Brutality and maybe even a Warping Wail or 2?

Um, you actually have 34 lands there.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Um, you actually have 34 lands there.

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DOH.

I should state 16-20 mana sources as some of us run chrome moxes or Dark Rituals. I also forgot to mention Urborgs as 8 colorless mana sources is pain at times.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Solved Pox decks. Interesting. Here's what we've known to be in the vast majority of pox decks and I'm wondering, what do we remove for Collective Brutality as I'm pretty much at a loss...

1-2 Nether Spirit
1-3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn
4 Inquisition/Thoughtseize/1 cmc discard
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's
24-26 lands

That's 50-55 cards leaving just 5-10 'flex slots'. Good heavens! What an inflexible shell the Pox deck has! :eek: It would seem that the Dark Ritual and Innocent Blood x4 are starting to 'phase out' as it were but I do love me some turn 1 Liliana on the play. I also love me some Sinkhole so I have even less flex slots than that.

What would you remove to insert Collective Brutality and maybe even a Warping Wail or 2?

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I can see the Innocent Bloods, but why is Dark Ritual starting to get phased out?

A lot of people despise dark ritual for the crap top deck that it is later in the game so much to the point that they are willing to sacrifice early turn explosive starts. Which is fair, but I'm an advocate for the dark ritual lists. Turn 1 liliana is still very good.

This Pox deck took 2nd at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

It's Black with a small White splash for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. They call it "BW Token" but don't be misled - tokens is a subtheme. This is BW Pox.

I don't know much about the archetype - would love your guys' takes on the decklist.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/

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Originally Posted by korstructure

This Pox deck took 2nd at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

It's Black with a small White splash for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. They call it "BW Token" but don't be misled - tokens is a subtheme. This is BW Pox.

I don't know much about the archetype - would love your guys' takes on the decklist.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/

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Dark Ritual in a dual colored deck? If I had this exact same deck, my luck would 'determine' that I'm unable to cast anything even so lolz. :laugh: A working version of Vaka Pox with 3 Vindicates and tombstalker for the kill. The Armageddon and Sorin in the board are interesting choices. No Flagstones of Trokair is a surprise. Flying 1/1 tokens would definitely be a house with the proper setup.

That's a beautiful list... Not entirely sold on needing the 25th land with dark rituals and no factories, but the blossoms in the board are inspired. Personally I'd want room for a nether void or two in the 75, but I would need a couple runs with that version first, and it looks exciting enough to be worth doing that with. Specifically, my initial reaction is -1 swamp, -1 tormod's crypt(sb) for a nether void main and a nihil spellbomb, second nether void, or possibly even planar void in the board, but that's just a gut feeling.

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Originally Posted by korstructure

This Pox deck took 2nd at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

It's Black with a small White splash for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. They call it "BW Token" but don't be misled - tokens is a subtheme. This is BW Pox.

I don't know much about the archetype - would love your guys' takes on the decklist.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/

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It is very similar to my list. I use slightly less fetchlands, with flagstones and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Rather than Dark Ritual I use Mox diamond for the slight mana ramp as well as mana fixing.

Differences between lists (-=my deck +=his deck).
-1 Tombstalker
-2 Nether Spirit
+3 Bloodghast
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Innocent Blood
-4 Inquistion of Kozilek
+4 Thoughtseize
-3 Sinkhole
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Vindicate
+4 Lingering Souls

Overall I really like his take on it. I am very happy with my list, but ghast is likely an upgrade to Spirit, I am not sure Blood is much better than swords. I do like that he forgoes the Night of Souls', Crucible and sinkhole for the selections that he has. I still believe that running tombstalker makes swords the better option over Innocent blood, however with the design his list really only "splashes" white, whereas my list has a slightly more even split. Especially factoring in sideboard where I have an Enlightened Tutor package. This list is very similar to my token build as well, where I do run souls and bitterblossom. I also have Jitte in that build since it is insane with the flying tokens.

A few fun things happened at yesterday's tourney.
My first duel win vs a Goblin player saw me play dark ritual + buried alive for Bloodghasts, on turn one. His hand was moxes and trinisphere+chalice. Not much he could do then!
Second he won with goblin chieftain as Goblin decks should. (he was actually on a resource denial plan, with Goblin settlers!)
Last duel I found my engineered plague and finished him off with phyrexian crusader(!) .

Neither of Buried Alive or Crusader are much good. I play them to try out new win conditions. Next I will try triskaidekaphobia.

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

It is very similar to my list. I use slightly less fetchlands, with flagstones and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Rather than Dark Ritual I use Mox diamond for the slight mana ramp as well as mana fixing.

Differences between lists (-=my deck +=his deck).
-1 Tombstalker
-2 Nether Spirit
+3 Bloodghast
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Innocent Blood
-4 Inquistion of Kozilek
+4 Thoughtseize
-3 Sinkhole
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Vindicate
+4 Lingering Souls

Overall I really like his take on it. I am very happy with my list, but ghast is likely an upgrade to Spirit, I am not sure Blood is much better than swords. I do like that he forgoes the Night of Souls', Crucible and sinkhole for the selections that he has. I still believe that running tombstalker makes swords the better option over Innocent blood, however with the design his list really only "splashes" white, whereas my list has a slightly more even split. Especially factoring in sideboard where I have an Enlightened Tutor package. This list is very similar to my token build as well, where I do run souls and bitterblossom. I also have Jitte in that build since it is insane with the flying tokens.

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What is your list by the way? I have noticed that you have been on this thread for awhile playing pox. You play black/white pox?