[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

Any reasons to diversify fetchlands besides Pithing Needle effects?

Yes, I guess being needled out of your fetches is tough, but I think the best configuration is 4x Wooded Foothills paired with 4x Flooded Strand. Both fetches can find all the fetchables, so there is no problem there. I think it provides a strategic advantage. Being able to bluff being on a non-stifle deck turn 1 can trick an opponent into over-extending into a stifle.

Say your on the play game one. Your hand is two Flooded Strands, a Goyf, a Stifle, and some counterspells. It’s a keepable hand, if a little slow. If you lead with Flooded Strand go, the opponent will probably put you on miracles/stoneblade. They will not expect a stifle. The same goes for foothills. The fact that foothills isn’t even a blue fetch removes any thought of turn one stifle.

Non-Stifle Decks that a turn 1 Flooded Strand or Wooded Foothills could be:
— Miracles
— Stoneblade
— Lands
— Jund
— Sneak and Show
— Punishing Maverick
— High Tide

Generally, from a Delver deck, people are going to expect a turn one play. Most of the time you will have it. But, the possible equity from tricking someone into a stifled fetch out weighs the possible equity of dodging a needles fetch. Also, this situation seems to come up more often.

So, I pose the question: Why diversify when you can hedge a possible cheeky play?

P.S. — I like the look of old bordered cards, and I can play all Onslaught fetches. :)

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Originally Posted by Audemus

Any reasons to diversify fetchlands besides Pithing Needle effects?

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In my opinion this outweighs the likelihood of your opponent stumbling into a stifle by reading your fetchland wrongly.
If your opponent sees Wooded Foothills they are probably more likely to assume RUG than any other deck anyway, there aren't many people playing jund/zoo/goblins

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

In my opinion this outweighs the likelihood of your opponent stumbling into a stifle by reading your fetchland wrongly.
If your opponent sees Wooded Foothills they are probably more likely to assume RUG than any other deck anyway, there aren't many people playing jund/zoo/goblins

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Fair point.

Polluted Delta is the most ambiguous blue fetch IMO. It gives you a better chance of bluffing a Stifle than a Wooded Foothills.

I always choose my fetches according to the bluff factor rather than playing around Pithing Needle. I've been Needled on fetches maybe 3 times in my life and it only mattered once or twice. However I have played countless games where I lost on turn 0-1 (Reanimate Grissel, SnT Emrakul, realize your up against manaless Dredge) and purposely kept playing in an attempt to misguide my opponent on my deck choice by making plays that lets my opponent think i'm on a different deck for G2. Fetching Volcanics and cantripping and never play any creatures or removal can lead to an opponent thinking you're on Sneak and Show for example. Sometimes I have a basic Island so I bring it out and let my opponent guess before they kill me or I scoop. That way you can go into G2 with an advantage.

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Originally Posted by eldub

Has anyone been playing with Dreadhorde Arcanist & Wrenn in RUG colors? I have been playing UR Delver in prep for GP ATL for about a month now to some solid success (fetching basic island T1 can be a real blessing).. Zombie Wizard has won me a ton of games I had no business being in.

I got my hands on a few copies of Wrenn & Six and was trying to figure out the best way to convert the solid UR delver cantrip-heavy tapout shell to RUG to support Wrenn and Goyf over Young Peezy. Here's where I landed:

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Jarvis Yu streamed with similar kind of list, looked really smooth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_cLxD8VoDQ

He called it "no bad cards" RUG. :)

Stifle feels so situational card to me, so definitely gonna try out this list too.

Thanks for the heads up @meite -- this was a good watch. Played out pretty similarly to how I've been doing locally. If only I was as good as Jarvis.. ;)

I think that video showcases how well the deck lines up against other fair strategies in general .. tons of raw card advantage and able to turn the corner relatively quickly or grind it out as appropriate. I still prefer playing more Preordain (3 or 4), since the deck really needs GY fuel to function and is lacking in proactive T1 plays with Delver as the only 1cmc threat.

Both Pierce and Snare have under-performed since you really do want to tap out in the early game, especially when you know you're not playing against a deck that can kill you before turn 2. Watching Jarvis' VOD, there are definitely several spots in games where he was lacking in fuel for Arcanist by not quite having enough 1cmc action (preordain/chain lightning).

This deck is quite weak to GY hate, with RIP/Leyline totally shutting off all your non-Delver/TNN threats. Having 6 total Force effects in the 75 (5+1) is a nice way to ensure you don't get punked out of games by Chalice/RiP/Leyline. If you get to enact your game plan, it's pretty hard for other decks to keep up so be mindful with your Forces.

It's an interesting toss up between Arcanist #4 and Wrenn #3 as the final 2-drop threat. They both serve similar functions (raw CA) and act as supplementary removal. I've been very happy with 3 Goyfs and 2 TNN.

If you play 6 or more Green cards main, you definitely want 3 Volcs and 3 Trops; if you're on 5 or less, the third Tropical Island is pretty bad. Drawing 2xTrop and not being able to play any bolts or red threats is a more likely scenario than being Wasted/Ported off a Green source with Wrenn in your deck in my experience. I see a ton of people playing 19 land in these Arcanist shells (including Jarvis w/ a Lonely Sandbar), but it seems unnecessary to me. You have so much card selection via cantrips and W6 to make land drops that you're definitely more prone to Flood than anything. In my configuration below, you fetch Volcanic first >95% of the time.

Here's where I am at currently, putting in as many reps as I can in prep for ATL:

Land (18)
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (10)
2x Chain Lightning
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
1x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will

Creature (13)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Dreadhorde Arcanist
3x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (2)
2x Wrenn and Six

Sideboard (15)
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Hydroblast
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Cindervines
2x Gilded Drake
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Force of Negation
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Rough / Tumble

The SB is slanted heavily towards permanent-based removal or disruption as this deck still wants to play mostly tap-out, even against combo decks. Honestly with the amount of heavy discard (depths/storm) and Veil of Summer being around in the spell-based combo decks, I'm not playing Flusterstorm for the first time in as long as I can remember. Narset is currently filling in for Winter Orb which I had very marginal experiences with. I had Spell Pierce/Snare hanging around between MB and SB for a while but they just didn't jive with the deck's play patterns.

Three of the top25 decks at the SCG Team Open this weekend were variations on a stifle-less, Dreadhorde Arcanist RUG Delver shell.

Noah Walker (5th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190903#paper
Hunter Nance (7th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190910#paper
Chad Harney (25th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190963#paper

Everyone played the same threats, although with some variation as to how many of of each (4x Delver, 3x W6, 2-4x Arcanist, 1-4x Goyf, 2-3x TNN).

19 land with a Fiery Islet was the manabase of choice, with Hunter only playing 2x Trop and a basic island supporting 4 maindeck green cards.

Cool to see folks experimenting; hopefully some discussion can pick up on this archetype now that lists are being published from good results.

Obviously i regard the opinion of Noah et al higher than mine but doesnt arcanist work better with black for discard?

Thoughtseize definitely pulls it's weight in the combo matchups, but fetching Badlands or USea early can be very awkward depending on your opening 7. In the post-board games when you know your opponent is not playing Wasteland, Trop+Badlands can cast everything, but not having UU can be a problem, especially if you're playing Pierce/Snare/Fluster.

I think Plague Engineer is the biggest pull into Black personally. Now that we have access to 6x Force effects I don't find myself missing discard as much.

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Originally Posted by Baku_91

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

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I'm still impressed by my setup (3 Wrenn /3 pierce /4 Hexdrinker / 50 classic). But I have the same feeling as Qweerios. The W6 count in the deck will decrease in a midterm perspective:
The card is strong but Delver flips less,
it is not pitchable to FOW,
you don't always want to see multiples.

However, the more I thin the deck the happier I am (not to say that any late drawn Hexdrinker is a must answer otherwise you crush your opponent)

Btw, Hexdrinker is a monster (after easy 50+ games with it since I mentioned it) I won so many games just on the back of it.

Seems like it is starting to show results (600+ players):

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22880&d=356469


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Against Elves:
- Electrickery
- Staticaster
- Rough // Tumble
- Forked bolt
- Grafdigger's cage
- Pithing Needle
- Lavamancer

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Against Depths ? -> what version of Depths ?

Ralf

That list with hexdrinker doesn’t run stifle which makes sense since hexdrinker wants you to tap in sorcery speed.
It should be good with W6 since it gives you something to do with the excess lands you might end up with.

I have a question for you all. As some players have started tinkering with crop rotation in the 75 and cards to go with it in the sideboard, outside of the ususl draw land and wastelands... wouldnt elvish reclaimer be a good addition?

3 lands in graveyard is not very hard and you got yourself a 1 mana minigoyf. Not having to tap two lands in delver is a big deal, right? And the deck could use more 1 cmc threats.

She can also tutor for draw-land or wasteland with or without active wren. Post board she can tutor up karakas, perhabs bog... perhabs even nacle. I’m thinking something like a two-off? Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

I have a question for you all. As some players have started tinkering with crop rotation in the 75 and cards to go with it in the sideboard, outside of the ususl draw land and wastelands... wouldnt elvish reclaimer be a good addition?

3 lands in graveyard is not very hard and you got yourself a 1 mana minigoyf. Not having to tap two lands in delver is a big deal, right? And the deck could use more 1 cmc threats.

She can also tutor for draw-land or wasteland with or without active wren. Post board she can tutor up karakas, perhabs bog... perhabs even nacle. I’m thinking something like a two-off? Thoughts?

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I don't think the deck needs more threats. The combination of Arcanist/Delver/TNN/Tarmo is enough and adding more creature will make Delver less threatening.

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

I don't think the deck needs more threats. The combination of Arcanist/Delver/TNN/Tarmo is enough and adding more creature will make Delver less threatening.

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I meant by cutting other threats. IE goyfs

To expand. The deck have a pretty bad curve. Your threats is 4 1 cmc, 9 2 cmc and 2 3 cmc.

If you add sorcery speed cantrips you have 10 plays T1. That compared to 8 threats and 4 ponder from the old grixis D.

Playing nothing on T1 is pretty bad in this deck tbh. You only have 2 one-mana-counters and 4 instant speed removal (6) compared to the old canadian with 4 one-mana-counters, stifles and bolts (12) and the tap-out grixis D (6 or 7 if you ran wild slash).

So cutting two 2-drops for more 1-drop threats seem reasonable. It’s pretty discouraging to waste the trop if your opponent went T1 Elf of a fetch. That’s two lands in the grave.

I’m gonna try 2 Elves :D

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

I meant by cutting other threats. IE goyfs

To expand. The deck have a pretty bad curve. Your threats is 4 1 cmc, 9 2 cmc and 2 3 cmc.

If you add sorcery speed cantrips you have 10 plays T1. That compared to 8 threats and 4 ponder from the old grixis D.

Playing nothing on T1 is pretty bad in this deck tbh. You only have 2 one-mana-counters and 4 instant speed removal (6) compared to the old canadian with 4 one-mana-counters, stifles and bolts (12) and the tap-out grixis D (6 or 7 if you ran wild slash).

So cutting two 2-drops for more 1-drop threats seem reasonable. It’s pretty discouraging to waste the trop if your opponent went T1 Elf of a fetch. That’s two lands in the grave.

I’m gonna try 2 Elves :D

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This seems fine. I will try it too !

Isnt goyf better to have for the midrange and stompy matchups? Angler and reality smasher will rejoice, I think.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Isnt goyf better to have for the midrange and stompy matchups? Angler and reality smasher will rejoice, I think.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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That is probably true.

Hi all, if any of you know me, I usually play either UW blade or MUD. I'm not a happy delver player during the grixis era, and promised that the only delver I'd ever play is RUG Threshold. If it ever got good again. Lol. And here we are. I'm interested in confering on deck choices ahead of ew. First I'll post my current build, then I'll post my questions. Happy to discuss and defend mybdeck choices as they are.

Deck: Legacy Temur Delver w 6 9-8-19.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Sorceries:7
1 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

Instants:20
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
1 Dead // Gone
4 Force of Will

Enchantments:1
1 Sylvan Library

Others:3
3 Wrenn and Six

Lands:18
1 Fiery Islet
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damping Sphere
1 Blazing Volley
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shenanigans
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vapor Snag
1 Veil of Summer
1 Echoing Truth

First question: what's the consensus on arcanist vs a stifle package? I love some stifle and miss it horribly playing arcanist. Who likes which?

The sb is in no way locked in. I do feel like it needs a second sphere and a second surgical. Need to figure out what to cut for each.

The consensus is pretty much not to play stifle anymore. It doesn't fit with the new cards and style of the deck (which is much more powerful than before). Stifle might get you some free wins occasionally, but it's not worth it in the grand scheme of things. It's too often a semi dead card, and even where it's good, the deck doesn't have to extend the early game that much now that it has much more raw power to go toe to toe with midrange and control in the late game.

A few more observations from testing:
- I didn't like arcanist initially and refused to test it for the longest time, but it's a house. Just make sure you're playing the fifth bolt along it to clear out those tarmogoyfs.

- although it was initially hastily dismissed because of its anti tempo, w6 vulnerable nature, hexdrinker might actually have some merit, as both tournament results and personal testing show. I wouldn't play more than 1 copy though since you don't usually want multiples. Currently slotting it in place of the fourth tarmo

With w6 filling our hand with extra lands in the grinder matchups and our slightly higher mana curve, it seems
Jtms is replacing winter orb as the new anti-control bomb of choice. Can't go wrong with that one, I guess...

- the crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

EDIT: looking at the playoff results, the real issue seems to be a looming Wrenn and Six ban... Variety in large tournament results has always been the main criteria for bans, and Rug seems to be taking over legacy, plus the card is also present in other lists like 4c control, lands, and aggro loam. 5/8 top 8 decks are playing it, and I don't see the trend reversing anytime soon

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

The consensus is pretty much not to play stifle anymore. It doesn't fit with the new cards and style of the deck (which is much more powerful than before). Stifle might get you some free wins occasionally, but it's not worth it in the grand scheme of things. It's too often a semi dead card, and even where it's good, the deck doesn't have to extend the early game that much now that it has much more raw power to go toe to toe with midrange and control in the late game.

A few more observations from testing:
- I didn't like arcanist initially and refused to test it for the longest time, but it's a house. Just make sure you're playing the fifth bolt along it to clear out those tarmogoyfs.

- although it was initially hastily dismissed because of its anti tempo, w6 vulnerable nature, hexdrinker might actually have some merit, as both tournament results and personal testing show. I wouldn't play more than 1 copy though since you don't usually want multiples. Currently slotting it in place of the fourth tarmo

With w6 filling our hand with extra lands in the grinder matchups and our slightly higher mana curve, it seems
Jtms is replacing winter orb as the new anti-control bomb of choice. Can't go wrong with that one, I guess...

- the crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

EDIT: looking at the playoff results, the real issue seems to be a looming Wrenn and Six ban... Variety in large tournament results has always been the main criteria for bans, and Rug seems to be taking over legacy, plus the card is also present in other lists like 4c control, lands, and aggro loam. 5/8 top 8 decks are playing it, and I don't see the trend reversing anytime soon

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Stifle has been dead for me. And w6 needs the fastest ban for this deck.

In the mirror, its whoever drops w6 in first and protects it

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

The crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

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Crop rot, really? That IS pretty spicey. My backup deck is always gx lands. This somehow super appeals to me as a thought. Is it being run mb or sb?



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Mostly as a 1 or 2 of in the side, along with karakas and sometimes bojuka big. Some have tried it main though, not sure that makes sense, since the silver bullet lands are still in the side

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Mostly as a 1 or 2 of in the side, along with karakas and sometimes bojuka big. Some have tried it main though, not sure that makes sense, since the silver bullet lands are still in the side

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Usually these are decks with 3 Wrenn and Fiery Islet so there is at least one spicy land maindeck, and just as a way to access wasteland it's not totally awful

If you were going to run a singleton of one of the following in the main 60, which would you rather choose:
Sylvan Library
Narset, Parter of Veils

Library only costing 2 is a very relevant difference, however given the deck’s relative mana stability granted by W&6 ramping to 3 mana isn’t all that difficult. Narset is great in that she provides a form of draw disruption against plenty of the format, and at worst she’ll provide 1 or 2 impulses. Is blue, pitches to Force.

Library is really great in a Miracles-heavy metagame, however nowadays that deck sees less play. However, it is somewhat hard to lose a game where you resolve an early Library, as it fixes your draw steps every turn and can be used to get ahead on cards if you aren’t up against a particularly aggressive deck. It’s such a powerful effect that any Green deck needs to justify a reason to not be running 1-2 somewhere in the 75.

In both cases, either getting countered/destroyed will grow Tarmogoyf so that’s a somewhat relevant bonus.

Another question: what do you prefer to run as your 5th removal spell?
Chain Lightning is the closest to Bolt #5.
Magmatic Sinkhole is better at killing bigger creatures and planeswalkers.
Abrade is good at dealing with the various artifacts that are somewhat ubiquitous.
Fire // Ice can be really amazing in certain narrow cases, and I think the utility makes it more worthy of consideration than Forked Bolt these days.
Engineered Explosives is a potentially amazing sweeper that can deal with stuff that you might otherwise be unable to deal with — and also grows Goyfs.
Dismember kills off X/5s and can be cast from any land. The 4 life and inability to hit planeswalkers are relevant downsides though.
Any other spells that people like running?

Also, has anyone tested running a main deck copy of Cindervines? Artifacts are fairly common enough to warrant at least considering Abrade, but CV also doubles as a sort of threat if landed early enough

Final question for now: has anyone had much success with running Winter Orb in the sideboard? Is it justified given the current metagame?

Between the two, I would probably choose library because it grows goyf, although I think neither is necessary in the current meta (not enough uw control).

If you're playing arcanist (you should) then you'll want chain lightning as your 5th removal. You'll face a lot of w6/tarmo mirrors, and Arcanist can be very good or very bad against tarmo depending on whether you have a bolt or not. Also, it kills opposing arcanists cleanly. Sinkhole is a nice upgrade to dismember and being able to clip opposing pws is nice,but tarmo is too often a 5/6 these days for it to reliably answer it (or for us to really need it against angler). Also, it's another gy card that increases your vulnerability to rip (minor but not irrelevant). I like abrade for its versatility and as an answer to prelate, but DNT has been beaten down enough by wrenn that I don't feel the need to edge against it anymore. Still, it kills arcanist and chalice, so it might be the best alternative to chain lightning.

I have tested vines and i don't really like it. The extra Mana feels like a pretty big downside when you want to destroy that equipment or chalice asap. The damage is nice but when you board it in your really want it for the disenchant effect, and instant speed is much better for obvious reasons. I've gone back to revelry since.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Between the two, I would probably choose library because it grows goyf, although I think neither is necessary in the current meta (not enough uw control).

If you're playing arcanist (you should) then you'll want chain lightning as your 5th removal. You'll face a lot of w6/tarmo mirrors, and Arcanist can be very good or very bad against tarmo depending on whether you have a bolt or not. Also, it kills opposing arcanists cleanly. Sinkhole is a nice upgrade to dismember and being able to clip opposing pws is nice,but tarmo is too often a 5/6 these days for it to reliably answer it (or for us to really need it against angler). Also, it's another gy card that increases your vulnerability to rip (minor but not irrelevant). I like abrade for its versatility and as an answer to prelate, but DNT has been beaten down enough by wrenn that I don't feel the need to edge against it anymore. Still, it kills arcanist and chalice, so it might be the best alternative to chain lightning.

I have tested vines and i don't really like it. The extra Mana feels like a pretty big downside when you want to destroy that equipment or chalice asap. The damage is nice but when you board it in your really want it for the disenchant effect, and instant speed is much better for obvious reasons. I've gone back to revelry since.

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Thanks to W6, goyfs are usually pretty big already. its at least 5/6

Let’s talk tertiary creature options. Let’s assume that Delver, Goyf, and to some extent 2 copies of TNN are a given.

Dreadhorde Arcanist is really powerful if he gets going, but you also want to add a critical number of spells (e.g. 2 Preordain) to ensure you always have something worth re-casting. However, it dies to everything.

Nimble Mongoose got sidelined due to the relative speed of the format, as well as the seeming decline of Miracles. However, I could potentially see it continuing to see play if UWx decks return.

Hooting Mandrills is an interesting alternative creature, which can be easily supported by running some number of Thought Scour. It has the advantage of dodging Bolt and Decay, as well as ignoring graveyard hate if already deployed. Being a 4/4 enables it to brickwall a lot of the format, including opposing Arcanists. Finally, trample enables it to cut through a board stall, even against a TNN or Mother of Runes.

Young Pyromancer typically only sees play in straight UR Delver, but it’s not impossible to consider RUG running some number of these guys to allow for a go-wide strategy. I’m actually strongly considering adding 1-2 copies to my list for the sake of variety and potential blowouts.

Then there’s some other more obscure options, such as Pteramander, Grim Lavamancer, etc. A significant problem a lot of these face is having 1-toughness, which is a huge liability in a format with W&6 (and a strike against Y. Pyromancer). Plus, there’s no guarantee that hate-bears like Scavenging Ooze or Collector Ouphe will line up well against your opponent, hence making them better sideboard fits.

Anyways, what’re you guys testing? Does Hooting Mandrills deserve the slot over Arcanist, or is Arcanist just so good on a stalled board that nothing else really compares?

Why not a 4th W6 and & GSZ to have a 5th Tarmogoyf ?

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Originally Posted by MinosSnt

Why not a 4th W6 and & GSZ to have a 5th Tarmogoyf ?

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As good as W6 is, too many copies can get flooded. The general rule of thumb for legacy blue decks is:
4 copies if you don’t mind frequently seeing multiples every game
3 copies if you want to reliably see at least one copy the majority of games
2 copies if it’s a spell you’d like to cast once in a game but typically no more than that
1 copy if it’s something you only want to see rarely; is a unique effect that’s weak in multiples (e.g. Sylvan Library), or is functioning as a “5th” copy of an existing card (e.g. Force of Negation as the 5th Force of Will)

It’s not super common, but there *are* some decks against which you may consider siding out W6.

Anyways, GSZ is an interesting idea to function as Goyf #5, and it opens the door also to running some utility creatures in the SB (e.g. Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze). I recall back in the day, that in tempo mirrors you never wanted to cut actual copies of Goyf for GSZ though, as you’d often get outnumbered eventually and the 3-mana aspect of GSZ makes it more vulnerable to the various counterspells.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

It’s not super common, but there *are* some decks against which you may consider siding out W6.

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Isn't it super common to side out W6 against unfair decks like Rakdos Reanimator, TES and other decks that can kill you on the 3rd turn?

I side w6 out a lot. Sometimes 2, sometimes all 3. I rather keep tnn because it pitches to fow and bolt because it can reduce the clock or get cheap wins vs ad naus or griselbrand draw 14.

I dont think GSZ has a spot. It’s too slow. I dont think you want to flood on 2 mana dumb beaters neither.
I’ve been testing a ScOz as it’s a hatebear in addition to beater. Mixed results.
I actually would add like to try another 1drop beater, be it either hexdrinker or reclaimer.
Reclaimer could further a crop rotation plan post board and finds wasteland for a wren lock. That’s not bad for a 1 mana mini-goyf

I honestly thought Hexdrinker was completely unplayable but actually the first copy of that card has been quite good so far. I do recommend 1 copy. I've never tried Reclaimer but that card has been a house in Depths lately.

Agree with JackaBo about taking out W6 quite a bit vs fast combo. I'm actually playing 4x Wrenn main but I take them all out vs Reanimator, Storm, etc.

Both RUG decks in the top 8 of the latest GP were running 2 copies of Hexdrinker. If ever there were evidence for the card being a worthy inclusion, here it is.

Also in the top 8 list was the return of multiple copies of Submerge in the sideboard. A well timed casting of this spell can function as a brutal form of Timewalk, and it’s great in both the mirror and generally deals with Marit Lage (and even better, it gets through a Chalice on 1 like you may occasionally encounter against Lands.dec). Finally, it provides a potential out against a resolved Knight of the Reliquary.

Hi guys. If I may. I've been running a rug shell for a while now, and I'm wondering why the deck has added up to 19 lands instead of the 18 we used to run? W6 seems to usually dictate fewer lands than usual, not more. I kinds wanna cut a fetch for another preordain. I'm on 19 currently with a basic island owing to btb basics decks, the mirror, and ghost quarter / assassin's trophy if it gets through.

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Also, what ceature do you cut for a hexdrinker? A goyf or a tnn or what? I'm on 4 delver, 3 tnn, 3 goyf, and 2 arcanist

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I will also add that reclaimed is very gross and a 3x4 beater with a cool backup ability is very good...probably not in this deck tho. Doesnt feel right. Hexdrinker is best ok, bc for the cc of tnn you get to activate the first ability. I'm still not super sold on it, bc it's a full tapout turn, usually.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malfeischylde

Also, what ceature do you cut for a hexdrinker? A goyf or a tnn or what? I'm on 4 delver, 3 tnn, 3 goyf, and 2 arcanist

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Arcanist is not for this deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malfeischylde

Hi guys. If I may. I've been running a rug shell for a while now, and I'm wondering why the deck has added up to 19 lands instead of the 18 we used to run? W6 seems to usually dictate fewer lands than usual, not more. I kinds wanna cut a fetch for another preordain. I'm on 19 currently with a basic island owing to btb basics decks, the mirror, and ghost quarter / assassin's trophy if it gets through.

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The 19th land is either Lonely Sandbar or (more commonly) Fiery Islet, both of which function more like a spell than a land since they're being run for the sake of drawing cards, especially with Wrenn's +1 recursion ability. These are both very powerful in tandem with W6's ability, and Islet in particular is good at giving you a bit more mana accessibility when necessary. However, Sandbar is better at drawing cards since it's an instant-speed ability that you can do at the end of your opponent's turn and doesn't require a land drop. It's completely reasonable to run the UG version instead of Fiery Islet too.

After more testing, many players (myself included) have come to the overall conclusion that right now, Hexdrinker is the superior option over Dreadhorde Arcanist. This deck wants creatures that can close out games, and Hexdrinker is essentially a modernized form of Nimble Mongoose. It's not difficult to get him leveled up in the midgame, which will protect him as the vast majority of Legacy removal spells are Instants. And if you're at a point in the game where you're facing down a Jace, you very well might be able to get him to ultimate size, and thus dodge Jace's -1 Unsummon ability. Hexdrinker is great at breaking eventual board stalls, as well as dodging graveyard hate like Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void or Relic of Progenitus -- which cause problems for Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Hooting Mandrills and Dreadhorde Arcanist.

It's true that a well-timed Arcanist can easily run away with a game, but he's not so great against decks that play creatures of their own which seems to be where RUG can struggle the most.

Also, I agree with a lot of the suggestions from Jarvis Yu after top-8ing the latest Grand Prix. Here's a link to his report: http://llarack.blogspot.com/2019/09/...x-atlanta.html

The decklist he recommends going forward:

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Wrenn and Six
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Fiery Islet
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crop Rotation
1 Force of Negation
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Karakas
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library

I think this is a good starting point, with minor changes in the sideboard made based on your expected metagame. 3 copies of Submerge seems right if you expect to see a fair number of big Green creature decks; if you instead expect to run into a fair amount of Reanimator and/or Dark Depths, running Vapor Snag instead is probably the right call.

Thanks for the link to Jarvis' post. Yea I trust him a bunch. I have the islet as land 19 as well. Like it more than sandbar bc it comes in untapped although I understand the utility of sandbar. Hoping to figure out the list before scg. Think I may play it there. Gotta see. Currently still a bit up in the air about hexdrinker although a lot of people have been loving it

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