[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Personally in my local environment, there are a large number of unfair decks. Once a Jace is resolved and then keeping +2, the game is nearly over. Therefore it can be a way to improve BUG Delver's solution towards unfair decks. But yes, "A 4 mana threats is countered by a 1 mana trick" is ridiculous and make me upset. (There are really not too much Czech Pile in my environment. They are all destroyed by unfair players. LOL)

Unless the environment become fair decks' leading, I would still prefer to sideboard Jace at least one(I'm considering 2 in SB now actually)

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

What are everyone's thoughts on Jace in the board?

While being a ridiculous card and extremely powerful, I find that the spots I want him (notably 4c Leo and UWr miracles) the decks already pack several Pyroblast/REBs and it just feels like a terrible spot to have what's supposed to be your big-time card get answered cleanly by a 1-mana instant. Maybe there are other grindy matchups (the Mirror, Lands?) which they dont have access to Pyroblast/REB, but I feel like cards like Loam, Sylvan Library, Veils/Last Hopes, and recently Ive played some with a Tireless Tracker in the board can just as well grind out the game and provide tons of CA while dodging more clean answers.

This is also a SB space issue, and while I don't easily cut Jace, I'm not sure I can really justify him right now. Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by ReinhardtGao

Personally in my local environment, there are a large number of unfair decks. Once a Jace is resolved and then keeping +2, the game is nearly over. Therefore it can be a way to improve BUG Delver's solution towards unfair decks. But yes, "A 4 mana threats is countered by a 1 mana trick" is ridiculous and make me upset. (There are really not too much Czech Pile in my environment. They are all destroyed by unfair players. LOL)

Unless the environment become fair decks' leading, I would still prefer to sideboard Jace at least one(I'm considering 2 in SB now actually)

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I've always thought Jace was good in the grindy matchups and NOT against the unfair decks. T3 at best off a Deathrite (while also not using a daze along the way) I don't think is ever doing anything against BR Reanimator, most likely not Sneak and Show, mayyybe against a very slow Storm hand, and obviously not against real degenerate stuff like Moon Stompy or Belcher/Dredge.

Does it somehow not work out like this in practice and you're able to land Jace T3-4 against these unfair decks and you're actually in a good position? I could kind of see it if you've previously Hymn'ed or Thoughtseized, but keeping Jace in against the unfair decks seems counter-intuitive to me.

I'm interested to hear people's actual experiences, though.

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

What are everyone's thoughts on Jace in the board?

Lands

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Well, JTMS seems not to be a great tool vs Lands. Good luck resolving a four mana spell while you're costantly under Port activations and / or Wasteland - GQ recursion. Moreover, you can't unleash its full potential (-1 ability is pretty useless against an EOT Marit Lage).

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Originally Posted by meffeo

Well, JTMS seems not to be a great tool vs Lands. Good luck resolving a four mana spell while you're costantly under Port activations and / or Wasteland - GQ recursion. Moreover, you can't unleash its full potential (-1 ability is pretty useless against an EOT Marit Lage).

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Well, with fetchlands and DRS it certainly can be done. I remember Liliana being pretty sick against Marit Lage because they're in a weird position: Do they make the 20/20 on their turn and risk a liliana or do they wait until our turn, but risk us finding another wasteland? You can also force them to make the 20/20 by wastelanding their depths and the play the Lili afterwards.

Now I'm talking about Lili here and not Jace, they're the same though in that they kill a Lage with their minus-effect. I think the fact that she doesn't die to Pyroblast and the fact that she's cheaper makes her a much better additional angle of attack against fair decks since soo many of them play Pyroblast (Czech Pile, Grixis, Miracles).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absolutflipz

What are everyone's thoughts on Jace in the board?

While being a ridiculous card and extremely powerful, I find that the spots I want him (notably 4c Leo and UWr miracles) the decks already pack several Pyroblast/REBs and it just feels like a terrible spot to have what's supposed to be your big-time card get answered cleanly by a 1-mana instant. Maybe there are other grindy matchups (the Mirror, Lands?) which they dont have access to Pyroblast/REB, but I feel like cards like Loam, Sylvan Library, Veils/Last Hopes, and recently Ive played some with a Tireless Tracker in the board can just as well grind out the game and provide tons of CA while dodging more clean answers.

This is also a SB space issue, and while I don't easily cut Jace, I'm not sure I can really justify him right now. Am I wrong?

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I have the same issues with Jace that you do. The way I deal with it is overloading on blue threats. Between 2 Jace, 2 TNN (I have them in the board and like 2 Tombstalker better in the main) and then delver it can tax their red blasts enough. Not having DRS to effect the snap -> red blast feels really bad though. A resolved Jace is just so powerful that I personally think he is worth the pain a 1 mana counter/kill spell brings to us. Plus he is just a house in the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Kion

I have the same issues with Jace that you do. The way I deal with it is overloading on blue threats. Between 2 Jace, 2 TNN (I have them in the board and like 2 Tombstalker better in the main) and then delver it can tax their red blasts enough. Not having DRS to effect the snap -> red blast feels really bad though. A resolved Jace is just so powerful that I personally think he is worth the pain a 1 mana counter/kill spell brings to us. Plus he is just a house in the mirror.

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I agree in regards to JTMS' power level outweighing the risk to Pyroblast/REB, which remains frustratingly effective against us. I've been testing a single Hydroblast (in the sb obviously), and am considering a second copy. Most notably, Hydroblast/BEB is useful against the decks that are giving me trouble, which are blood moon (including stoneblade), degenerate pile kommand decks, and burn.

I apologize if this has been covered, I switched from Reanimator, to maverick, then Junk/Jund, and finally to BUG delver. I think this is my deck. It seems to have game against just about everything. I was wondering if anyone could share some insight regarding the Dragon Stompy matchup?

Top 8'd the monthly local undefeated in swiss with the following:

Land (20)
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Creature (16)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x Tombstalker

Sorcery (8)
4x Ponder
4x Hymn to Tourach

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Fatal Push
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

Sideboard (15)
2x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Golgari Charm
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Toxic Deluge
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Maxing out on Leovold was an experiment that played out very well for me.

Rd 1 (W 2-1) - UR Delver - Won Game 1 with Tombstalker dominating the board stabilizing at 7 life. Lost game 2 relatively quickly to a Young Pyro that made way more tokens than I could handle. Game 3 came down to surviving 3 turns at 3 Life while goyf went to town, very close, gg Flusterstorm.

Rd 2 (W 2-1) - UW Standstill Miracles - Lost Game 1 to a resolved Jace after multiple Swords + Snapcaster. Game 2 I win off back-to-back Tombstalkers that he can't find another answer for. Game 3 showed the power of turn 2 Leovold with Force backup really shutting off their cantrips and taking over the game with a 2nd copy after the first was Terminus'd away.

Rd 3 (W 2-0) - Food Chain - Not particularly memorable games as I had timely FoWs/Decay for Food Chain never allowing my opponent to do anything 'broken'. I was able to maintain DRS superiority in both games and grind my opponent out with a faster clock.

Rd 4 (W 2-0) - Storm - Game 1 turn 2 Leovold basically locks my opponent out. Game 2 was much more interactive with Duress and Therapy from my opponent. I was able to eventually stick Leovold and beat down. He was able to Decay Leovold on my end step for a 1-turn window to go off but Brainstorm found Flusterstorm to shut him out of the match.

Rd 5 - ID into 1st place

T8 (L 0-2) - Grixis Control - G1 mull to 5 and my t1 DRS dies to bolt; I die quickly to an unchecked YP. Game 2 I barely play magic as my opponent resolves 3 Cabal Therapy with a T1 probe to completely demolish my entire hand which included Liliana and Toxic Deluge. I die quickly to YP + Zombie Fish.
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Very happy with Leovold and a higher density of both threats and blue cards for FoW. Tombstalker was great, as usual.

Congrats on the top 8, and with an interesting list no less.

I'm curious about how integral Delvers were in your matches or towards your overall record. With so many midgame threats, would you think to play -4 Delver, +1 land +2 JTMS +1 Snap (for example) and just play a control route? Or is Delver just that efficient a threat that you always want them?

I've found in general that dropping Delver ends up lowering my overall win percentage. I think you want a proactive turn 1 threat regardless. The only other option I would consider in these colors is using Noble Hierarch to power out TNN/Leo/Jace a turn early.

Hey, y'all. I'm strongly considering playing BUG Delver in an upcoming Team Unified tournament. I figure that it's a slight favorite against Grixis Delver, which I anticipate being the most-represented blue deck; it has Hymn for the combo matchups (although Hymn might be too slow against Belcher); Tarmogoyf is a better threat than Pyromancer against Eldrazi (which I expect); and it has Abrupt Decay for any Chalice or Blood Moon shenanigans. Plus I think my Elves matchup is better than Grixis because I have access to Golgari Charms out of the sideboard. Expecting a faster metagame with less grinding, I'm thinking about registering this list and would love feedback on it:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

1 Liliana of the Veil

1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Snapcaster Mage

Some notes about choices:

- One of my teammates is on BR Reanimator, so I can't play Thoughtseize in the sideboard, hence the Duresses.
- Snapcaster comes in when Tombstalkers are bad so I have another piece of disruption and a body. Plus it's blue and can pitch to Force in the combo matchups.
- The maindeck Spell Pierce is a hedge against game 1 combo (which there should be a fair bit of). It replaces the 20th land because I'm not running Jace.
- No Library and no Jace is just a meta call. I feel like they'll be too slow against fast combo, Eldrazi, and Stompy.
- The Dismember instead of the second Fatal Push is for Eldrazi mostly, but I can be convinced that the second Push is better. There can only be one Deathrite player per team, so I'd rather have removal that can kill a more diverse suite of threats. I'm also considering playing Dead Weight instead of the Fatal Push so that my BR Reanimator teammate could have Pushes if he wants them.
- The card I'm least sure about is the maindeck Liliana of the Veil. My thinking is that combo and "big threat" decks will be more prevalent than grindy decks, so in theory Lili 1.0 should be better maindeck. But maybe I don't want that effect at all and would prefer a second Leovold or something. I'd have to go back to my sideboard maps and see if that would radically affect any of my plans.
- The second Flusterstorm might be better as either a second Spell Pierce or something like Hydroblast, but I'm not sure.

I'm open to any and all feedback.

Thanks!

Hey guys,

What is the sideboarding strat for Czech Pile, using HJ's list from EW for reference?

Cheers

I would personally just focus 100% on controlling the board and expect a long, grindy game:

-4 Daze
-4 FoW
-2 Decay

+2 Jace
+1 Spell Pierce
+2 Surgical (exiling USea or Jace can be game winning)
+1 Loam
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Toxic Deluge (killing multiple strixes + snapcaster is where u want to be)

Jace is the real card which you can't beat which is why I love Leovold so much in this shell, but with HJs list you can hopefully keep the board clear of strixes and keep applying pressure.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Hey guys,

What is the sideboarding strat for Czech Pile, using HJ's list from EW for reference?

Cheers

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I agree that You should expect To Face a long, grindy game, But i guess You should Not forget your aggressor role in The matchup. The advantage You have by playing TA is that You have a better late game in comparison To other delver decks, But You also have a couple of back-breaking opening Moves ( Which imply The use of free counterspells ) that You should Not preclude.
That being Said, those are My boarding plans Vs 4c:

Otp:
-4 Force of Will
+2 jace, The mind sculptor
+1 spell Pierce
+1 Life from The loam

Otd:
-2 daze
- 3 Force of Will
+2 jace, The mind sculptor
+1 Life from The loam
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 abrupt decay

Since we already have access To Liliana, The Last Hope in our mainboard, we don't need other ways To Deal with x-1 critters like strixes or snapcasters ( Who have already performed their Main role if They could touch The battlefield anyway ).
Regarding surgical in grindy matchups,that card is simply bad, since You can't reliably Take advantage with that or, To Say It better, There isn't a key card To exile above any other .
My cc2 cents

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Totally reasonable keep Daze in over cards like Thoughtseize/Surgical. Can I ask why you'd want to bring in more Abrupt Decay vs Pile?

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Originally Posted by eldub

Totally reasonable keep Daze in over cards like Thoughtseize/Surgical. Can I ask why you'd want to bring in more Abrupt Decay vs Pile?

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In My Last post i wrote abrupt decay, but even dismember would be fine- And, depending on The context , it could Be even better- since it's another cc1 removal spell for answering opposing shamans or singleton fatties like tasigur or gurmag. By The Way, i opted for this choice since You still need ways To Deal with your opponent's threats (be it shaman, leovold,lilianas or strixes when you're starting To beat him down), especially when You are on The draw And you shouldn't let your opponent go too far with his/Her gameplan.


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Hello all,

Dunno if this has been asked already but here it goes:

Do you guys leave the hymns against reanimator in games 2 and 3? It feels so bad when you givem them a free entomb but it feels great when you hit reanimation spells... So, what do you do, leave them or ship them?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by harroxelas

Hello all,

Dunno if this has been asked already but here it goes:

Do you guys leave the hymns against reanimator in games 2 and 3? It feels so bad when you givem them a free entomb but it feels great when you hit reanimation spells... So, what do you do, leave them or ship them?

Thanks

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I sometimes leave in 1 or 2, but if I have cards in my SB that I'd rather have, they can all go. It is a dangerous card here, but it can be useful in the right situation. If you do keep it in, I'd be careful about when I fire it off.

Hey guys, I am getting ready for SCG Philly and trying to put together my sideboard plan. I haven't played BUG Delver in a tournament since last summer, so I want to make sure I'm coming in with a solid gameplan. The deck that worries me the most right now is D&T. It was very popular last week and put up good results.

Right now I am considering the following for my sideboard:

2x Thoughtseize
1x Jace
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Golgari Charm
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the last hope
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Dread of Night
1x Hydroblast

My mainboard is standard for the most part, but I am running 2x Leovold, 1x Tombstalker, 1x LoTV, and 1x Sylvan Library.

In each match-up I generally know what I want to bring in from the SB, but have had a tough time deciding what to cut.

The most popular decks now appear to be: Grixis Delver, 4c control, D&T (with red variants). I'm curious how people would approach sideboarding for these matches.

My current thoughts for D&T:

IN: Pithing Needle, Toxic Deluge, Dread of Night, Edict x2, Last Hope, Golgari Charm
Out: 4x Force on the play, 4x daze on the draw. Maybe tombstalker because of RIP - but I'm not sure of the other cuts.

Grixis Delver:

In: Golgari Charm, Diabolic Edict, Last Hope, Deluge, Flusterstorm x2
Out: 4x Force on the play (on the draw 2 and 2 daze), Hymn, Sylvan Library

4c control:

In: 2x Flusterstorm, Last Hope, Jace
Out: 4x Force

Sneak and Show:
In: 2x Diabolic Edict, 2x Flusterstorm, 2x Surgical, 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Pithing Needle
Out: 3x Fatal Push, 2x Abrupt Decay, 1x Tombstalker, 1x LoTV - and I need 2 more cuts

Elves:

In: 2x Thoughtseize, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Toxic Deluge, 2x Surgical
Out: 4x Delver, 1x LoTV, need 1 more cut


Any input or feedback is very appreciated.

Thanks!

I'm surprised you aren't boarding in Hydroblast vs Sneak (Blood Moon / Sneak Attack) or Pile (K-Command). I do really like Fluster vs Pile though: resolving that 3-mana instant, or 5-mana with Snapcaster, is manageable for us with Wasteland and Fluster.

I find that I cut some of my countermagic against Elves. Post-board, they bring in some level of disruption and go for a beatdown game with creatures. I wouldn't bring in Surgical, but wraths and removal. Last Hope is really good here in my experience.

Elves - Agree that Daze is pretty bad, and when I'm cutting threats it's definitely Goyf with all their chump blockers and shenanigans.

Sneak n Show - You can cut some Goyf here as well and I also like Hydroblast.

This thread has died lately, but the deck continues to put up results worldwide. I also believe there is room to improve moving forward. I've had a few opportunities to play and keep detailed statistics for various configurations in the last month and I've noted a few things:

1) My game 1 win% was lower than I would like (44%), but bolstered by very solid post-board win%. Lots of matches won in three games. Poor G1 win% specifically vs control (Miracles, Pile, anything winning with JTMS) and fast Combo (OmniShow, Storm, Burn). The deck also felt too clunky vs Grixis Delver.

2) The games I lost, especially game 1, were with spells in my hand I was unable to cast. Typically this would be an over-abundance of 2+CMC cards, or FoW in hand with no pitch.

3) Statistically poor Delver flip% and FoW fuel with the traditional 20 land + CA-focused top-end (Lili's, Sylvan Library, Jace, etc).

I started on a mission to find a configuration that was the most proactive, disruptive, and aggressive for G1:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Leovold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

Stats:
Blue cards: 23
Flips for Delver: 26
Lands: 19
0/1CMC: 30
2 CMC: 8 (including 2x Tombstalker)
3 CMC: 3

I know this list looks a bit odd, and the majority of users here consider it blasphemy to play less then 2 Abrupt Decay in the main, but the card has honestly under-performed for me in general since the Top ban and leads to clunky draws. I consider them a 'necessary evil' to have in the 75 to answer problematic non-creature permanents and have been happy with 2x in the SB.

3x Leovold is probably the most dramatic departure from traditional lists, but they continue to overperform. He provides a few key elements to the strategy:
- An additional beater as Tarmogoyf's power has dwindled a bit
- An additional FoW pitch
- A strong and impactful top-end threat vs Combo & Control
- More "nut-draw" potential (multiple seize/hymn early into Leovold is simply unbeatable for many decks)

Feel free to give this a whirl if you're looking for a slightly different take on the archetype.

Compared to the BUG-Leo decks which have the heinous plan of Discard -> Leovold -> True-Name-Nemesis, instead of Discard -> Leovold -> Delver, what does this version do better and why should we play Delver instead of just more abortion-esque 3 mana creatures like TNN and Leo?

Just playing devil's advocate here, your list seems sweet - though 19 lands does seem a tad greedy.

I tested with BUG Leo (Jacob Wilson's list), but it was still pretty slow vs combo for my taste and if you drew the push/decay/TNN half of your deck you simply couldn't close games quick enough. It definitely has a strong G1 vs blue/fair decks which I liked. Post-board your entire gameplan revolves around threats which are answered by Pyroblast which became a real challenge.

That deck opened my eyes to Mindbreak Trap + Flusterstorm which really helped a ton post-board in your tougher matchups.

Long live Tombstalker/Goyf. Sometimes you just gotta beat 'em down.

I've been comfortable with 19 land in this version. Lower avg cmc, no 4-drops, no UU spells.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Compared to the BUG-Leo decks which have the heinous plan of Discard -> Leovold -> True-Name-Nemesis, instead of Discard -> Leovold -> Delver, what does this version do better and why should we play Delver instead of just more abortion-esque 3 mana creatures like TNN and Leo?

Just playing devil's advocate here, your list seems sweet - though 19 lands does seem a tad greedy.

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I can’t speak to “eldub’s” list but I have been jamming a 4 delver 4 deathrite 4 goyf 2 leovold threat package for a little over a month. Previous to this I ran Grixis delver for numerous years (Around the time Treasure Cruise got banned and deathrite got added). So most of my perspective will be comparing it to Grixis because I have not played BUG midrange.
BUG delver’s strength comes from very strong and straightforward lines that quickly outpace our opponent with intensity that’s comparable to being hit by a dump truck.
- Let’s start with Goyf, yes; he is susceptible to removal but it brings something to the table that other threats in its category (Gurmag, Tombstalker, Batterskull, Reality smasher) can’t easily replicate, its ease to cast. There is a significant number of games were I’ve won the game because I had multiple Goyfs that I’ve consecutively cast. BUG Delvers 0-60 times are incredible; the only threats that rival its speed are young pyromancer and reality smasher. So why play Goyf when the reach of bolt and young pyro is combined in a hyper aggressive package or you can consistently come in turn 3 with a hasty 5/5? The hate that’s best suited for this age of legacy hits these strategies hard, in fact we are equipped with the best of it. To defend against control strategies -1/-1 effects are readily used. They hit true-name, strix, snapcaster and the majority of white-based control. This has little to no bearing on Goyf but fortunately decimates Pyromancer. We commonly have multiple variants of this effect on our board. Reality Smasher requires a more premeditated solution from BUG Delever but a very manageable solution of mana denial from a large portion of the format. When designing our deck we can increase our percentages of creating a 5/6 Goyf to outclass Smasher. The notable ways are main boarding planswalkers and enchantments and start early with lines that get them to the yard (I currently have successful results bringing in “dead weight” from the board). The other is putting an emphasis on disrupting an artifact on there side of the board. Instant, Sorcery, Land and Creature will naturally be in the graveyard for this matchup. Another method of beating smasher is to pinch their mana with wasteland and get far enough ahead you can out pace them. If we can identify our opponent’s strategy turn 1-2 with the use of filtering we can out threat most aggressive matchups in the format. That strategy is very effective right now, to a point where jund looks appealing.
- Leovold is incredible. He is always relevant. Mainly my strategy is to go as fast as possible in the first 5 turns then lean on Leovold to keep your opponents from pulling ahead. You thrive in a deficient environment so against midrange/control in the later stages of the game Leovold will shore up a matchup that plays more resource heavy, higher quality cards. Against combo he comes in after you have effectively handicapped their hand quality with Hymn and Thoughtsieze. Leovold keeps them from can-tripping into their outs. Leovold also pitch’s to FOW, I found this to be a big con to Stalker and Gurmag. In the combo matchup when FOW is most important loosing a cantrip or delver to force is backbreaking so having the option to choose Leovold is significant.
- Delver compliments this list perfectly. There’s not as much emphasis put on it as previous Delver variants as this list doesn’t have the “protect the queen” mentality but in general it lets us do everything we want in our build. It provides a fast clock so our low CMC cards stay relevant over the duration of the game. It punishes decks that have stretched its removal to the point they loose consistency. If a delver is unanswered by turn 5-6 the game is likely over. It priorities our most important land in underground sea, come in play turn 1. It ups the blue count by 4 so running Goyf isn’t such a liability. It adds to our total number of game closing threats. Although our creatures can be killed by spot removal we run enough to naturally draw threats in a timely manner so games don’t go to long and fall out of reach. Without bolt to finish games this is incredibly important.

True name has a ligament argument in the right build but by my estimation its relatively slow as a clock and moves us slightly out of the our wheel house. True-name is great at forcing through the last few points of damage if we let the opponent stabilize and establish but BUG delver doesn’t want to be in that position. Its choice of disruption reinforces this concept but that’s for another night.

To “eldub” I see you went with thoughtsieze main. In your testing have you ran into these potential problems. 1) what I call the stifle dilemma. That is have to high of a percentage of playing two copies of a card that is most effective turn one. For example having a deathrite/delver and a thoughtsieze turn one. 2) To many times my thoughtsieze has run into a brainstorm. Is that where we want to be game 1? Trying to cast a timely thoughtseize?


I apologize for the poor grammar, poor writing and for mostly stating the obvious. Cheers!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blink

To “eldub” I see you went with thoughtsieze main. In your testing have you ran into these potential problems. 1) what I call the stifle dilemma. That is have to high of a percentage of playing two copies of a card that is most effective turn one. For example having a deathrite/delver and a thoughtsieze turn one. 2) To many times my thoughtsieze has run into a brainstorm. Is that where we want to be game 1? Trying to cast a timely thoughtseize?

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Thoughtseize is not a card I want to cast turn 1 in BUG Delver. I'm looking to generate tempo early. Best T1 plays are DRS > Delver > Pass with Fatal Push available > Wasteland > Thoughtseize > Ponder. I'm using TS more as a 'universal answer' that I cast to disrupt my opponent before their "critical turn". If I'm playing a JTMS deck, I'm trying to cast Thoughtseize right before they get to untap and play their 4th land (having Daze in hand may push this back a whole turn). Think of it as a proactive Abrupt Decay.

The other obvious use is to pave a path for something like Tombstaker or Leo. I' generally tend to cast Thoughtseize starting on turn 2 or 3.

Deathrite is generally the correct play if both are in your hand, but thoughtseize does generate tempo. A turn 1 thoughtseize taking their next turn's best play is how it does that. It is definitely a better play on the play than the draw, however.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Deathrite is generally the correct play if both are in your hand, but thoughtseize does generate tempo. A turn 1 thoughtseize taking their next turn's best play is how it does that. It is definitely a better play on the play than the draw, however.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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That was the conflict I was referring to.. Turn 1 deathrite is a reality that should be expected in any meta. So in that case would you thoughtseize the potential 3 mana threat ( leovold, true name, etc) there laying turn 2 or do we lay our own deathrite (being in the draw).

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Originally Posted by eldub

This thread has died lately, but the deck continues to put up results worldwide. I also believe there is room to improve moving forward. I've had a few opportunities to play and keep detailed statistics for various configurations in the last month and I've noted a few things:

1) My game 1 win% was lower than I would like (44%), but bolstered by very solid post-board win%. Lots of matches won in three games. Poor G1 win% specifically vs control (Miracles, Pile, anything winning with JTMS) and fast Combo (OmniShow, Storm, Burn). The deck also felt too clunky vs Grixis Delver.

2) The games I lost, especially game 1, were with spells in my hand I was unable to cast. Typically this would be an over-abundance of 2+CMC cards, or FoW in hand with no pitch.

3) Statistically poor Delver flip% and FoW fuel with the traditional 20 land + CA-focused top-end (Lili's, Sylvan Library, Jace, etc).

I started on a mission to find a configuration that was the most proactive, disruptive, and aggressive for G1:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Leovold

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

Stats:
Blue cards: 23
Flips for Delver: 26
Lands: 19
0/1CMC: 30
2 CMC: 8 (including 2x Tombstalker)
3 CMC: 3

I know this list looks a bit odd, and the majority of users here consider it blasphemy to play less then 2 Abrupt Decay in the main, but the card has honestly under-performed for me in general since the Top ban and leads to clunky draws. I consider them a 'necessary evil' to have in the 75 to answer problematic non-creature permanents and have been happy with 2x in the SB.

3x Leovold is probably the most dramatic departure from traditional lists, but they continue to overperform. He provides a few key elements to the strategy:
- An additional beater as Tarmogoyf's power has dwindled a bit
- An additional FoW pitch
- A strong and impactful top-end threat vs Combo & Control
- More "nut-draw" potential (multiple seize/hymn early into Leovold is simply unbeatable for many decks)

Feel free to give this a whirl if you're looking for a slightly different take on the archetype.

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How has Bitterblossom been in the SB? What matches are you bringing it in against? I expect Miracles, but have you noticed it performing well anywhere else?

I have been testing a few decks for SCG Worcester and am down to two: BUG Delver or Grixis Delver.

I've been looking at Hans Jacob Goddik's list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18312&d=313628&f=LE with maybe -1 Liliana, -1 Sea and +1 Leovold (or Goyf), +1 Ponder

Hey guys,
Been playing bug midrange for a while, and decided to go delver. Went with hj's eternal list, -1 tombstalker -1 LTLH, +1 ponder, +1 LOTV. I've had both tombstalkers in my hand way too many times. Thinking about trying to find room for another leo. I've always been pretty sketchy about the low number of blue cards and Leo would up that ideally. Thoughts?

Also, anyone know any good streamers or matches to watch? Hope to get this thread active again!

Edit:

Here are some cool matches. Funny enough I had a hard time finding BUG vs anything besides Storm:

Saito vs Paul Cheon (BUG vs ANT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YjTRcWlUyA

Javier Dominguez vs Martin Muller (BUG Vs ANT)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/153904442?t=01m12s

Bryant Cook vs Hans Jacob Goddick (TES vs BUG)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5c-lmAG5F8

Bruce Chau vs Hans Jacob Goddick (D&T vs BUG)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vIeb9cNg7I

Javier Dominguez vs Maxime Gilles (BUG vs Miracles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvbDNxbb14

Three Team America lists in the latest challenge, all with a bit of a different take on the top-end.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2018-03-05

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bam Bam

I've had both tombstalkers in my hand way too many times.

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LTLH helps facilitate Tombstalker by clearing the way of Strixes and annoying stuff (+1) and increasing your delve (-2) so you can cast them reliably. It is a big deckbuilding investment for the payoff of a really big, and hard to remove, beater. I've been pretty meh on Tombstalker lately, but I play against Pile and DnT more often than other decks.

Also, I've been playing without maindeck planeswalkers for a bit and trying to go under control decks rather than fighting for mid-lategame. It's been pretty okay, but it might be more of a reflection on my local meta rather than what's actually a good choice of cards.

EDIT: Also, those vids are good---it's hard to find recent stuff since SCG stopped weekly Legacy weekends 3 (?) years ago.

Yeah I experiment with cutting the planeswalkers too but I am always conflicted about the slots. Lili has always been my out to True-Name, so it's like do I put edict there? Do I just run my own True-name and rework the mana? I always give up and go back to the stock config.

I've been pretty happy with 2 Leo, 1 tombstalker and 1 LOTV. Im at 22 blue cards now for fow.

I'm pondering going down to 19 lands. Does anyone run 19 and feel good about it?

Also thank you for the videos!

It depends on the number of 3+ cmc cards you have main and side. I think the best land setup is 20 lands, especially if you really want to land Leo on 3. If you have sideboard Jace, playing 20 is probably necessary.

3 Misty // 3 Delta // 3 Verdant
4 USea // 2 Bayou // 1 Trop
4 Waste.

19 if you have a lower curve of threats, or if you're greedy.

Hi mates, I'm new with Team America / BUG Midrange and I'm playing this decklist in Italy, with some top8 in my local tournaments.

4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island

4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker

2 liliana of the veil

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push

SIDEBOARD
3 bitterblossom
2 thoughtseize
2 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 liliana, the last hope
1 golgari charm
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge

3x bitterblossom: this is an awesome card...the reason why to play 3of is the best possibility to play it in the early game, and win the game...
2x tombstalker: I want to have an high possibility to play it in the mid-game...1of isn't too much.
2x llveil MD and 1x llhope SB: I think that llveil is better maindeck against a lot of matchups, instead of llhope. But I would ask to you the reasons to split 1/1 maindeck...I've never tested together MD yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toffee

Hi mates, I'm new with Team America / BUG Midrange and I'm playing this decklist in Italy, with some top8 in my local tournaments.

2x llveil MD and 1x llhope SB: I think that llveil is better maindeck against a lot of matchups, instead of llhope. But I would ask to you the reasons to split 1/1 maindeck...I've never tested together MD yet.

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I've felt the opposite lately, to be honest.

Veil is great against critical mass combo decks (Storm, Sneak, etc.), and decent in creature matches, whereas Last Hope is better against the matches where we face difficulty (Pile at times, DnT, Elves). Last Hope has a lot of merits as a sideboard card, but Legacy has become really creature-oriented with a bunch of annoying x-1s.

Veil is really synergistic with the Hymn game-plan, but how much added help does TA need for combo match-ups? Hymn + Goyf is a lot to overcome, almost every sideboard has Surgical + Fluster.

It's a meta call which you prefer, and having played Veil for the past few years, I've been unimpressed and I like how Last Hope clears blockers and lets you push damage in a deck with no reach.

Top 8 at GP Madrid, interesting choices of adding in Dead Weight as a way to boost goyfs while offering cheap removal.

Thoughts on this build?

2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

1 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dead Weight
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Dead Weight
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

Certainly an excellent build to maximize Tarmogoyf. This is likely very strong against the fair matchups and specifically seems strong vs Eldrazi. It’s always an interesting line to walk between diversifying card types for Goyf and keeping your Instant/Sorceries maximized for Delver.

A total of 1 Abrupt Decay in the 75 is something to note. With the full play set of Goyf you need to be cognizant of your curve and overloading two drops. I’m guessing that’s why a Thoughtseize made its way into the main as well.

Which three drops to run to run between both Lilis and Leo is always a tough choice.

Hi guys,

Last weekend I attended the french legacy nationals with Team America and the list below :

9 fetchs
4 waste
3 u sea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 swamp

4 drs
4 delver
3 tarmo
2 tombstalker
1 leovold

4 HTT
4 BS
4 ponder
4 fow
3 daze
1 spell pierce
3 fatal push
2 decay

1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana the last hope

-- side --

2 surgical
2 thoughtseize
2 fluster
2 diabolic edict
2 golgari charm
1 sylvan library
1 jace TMS
1 bitterblossom
1 loam
1 maelstrom pulse

On friday, I went 5-0 (facing Grixis Delver, BUG Natural Order, Miracles, Punishing Maverick and Burn), and got the qualification for next year's finals.
On saturday (97 players) I 3-3 droped but this tournament is not really relevant since I played it for fun, I had to leave early to go to a party.
Then for the main event on sunday I finished 14h out of 85 players with a 5-2 record.

If I would change something, it would try to include invasive surgery in the sideboard to help against Lands for instance.
I would also cut a fetchland, since I did some fulls during the weekend.
The swamp is imho mandatory to compete vs Lands (hello Ghost Quarter) and Bloodmoon stompy, very popular over here in Paris, France.

What do you guys think about the pile matchup? Specifically I'd like to know how good you find lotv, leovold, tnn and delve creatures md. What about the sideboard? Do you think Bitterblossom is better than library?