[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

The first is an updated Scapewish:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Painful Truths

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//sb
3 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cabal Therapy

It's debatable if the 3rd Huntmaster should instead be a Meren of Clan Nel Toth -- testing has been inconclusive so far.

What has not been inconclusive is the fact that, at least in Scapewish, Painful Truths is unfuckingbelievable. The card is everything Scapewish ever wanted -- not just maindeck, but also by being a bridge "go-to" wish target in the board for when you're not ready to Scapeshift someone yet, but you also don't need to answer a problem, which was a hole that existed in Scape for a very long time and caused a number of problems.

This version of Scape feels very, very good. If you want to win tournaments with Nic Fit, I strongly recommend this list (or one very close to it).

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Alternatively, you could be me, and prefer to have fun (slash have sold off a lot of scapewish pieces in the last couple of months because unemployment sucks).

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

IT'S ALIVE!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPmVhyHBRAM

-Matt :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

To be honest, he also runs a Sigarda

But that doesn't have to be a problem. You just need to play enough spot removal to clear the road or some more beef. I'd switch Courser #2 for Rhino #4 and Sylvan Library for Path to Exile #3.

---

I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

---

I've been playing BUG Pod since Meren came out, and while I've been impressed with the deck's ability to generate value I have been missing the prevalence of combat-relevant bodies (coughcoughSiegeRhinocoughcough). The idea of a 4+ color shell has definitely been kicking around in my head too. No list to share (yet), but I wanted to endorse the mad-scientist deck approach.

My only specific feedback for your list is that 1 Savannah feels like too few fetchable white sources and that a full 8 fetch lands would be helpful for grabbing the Taiga too. I'd be inclined to cut a Bayou, 2 basics and the Mana Confluence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

The first is an updated Scapewish:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Painful Truths

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//sb
3 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cabal Therapy


I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

---

Few questions:

1) Is Nissa really better than the second Sakura/Wood Elves ? For sure, it gives you more lategame power but is likely more detrimental against MU where speed is key, because it doesn't ramp (also basic forest could be a liability...)

2) In my fuck..g world, Scapeshift is always in my starting hand or when I don't need it/dead card. Have you tested going down to 2, especially since you have included Painful Truth ?

3) I am a proponent for the 3 MD / 1 SB Therapy as I have won multiple games on the backfoot of a wished + flashbacked CT.
Still, only 3 discard spells MD makes me shiver like a naked baby.
Reducing our combo hate + our own combo speed (less ramp) is asking for troubles and Nic Fit is not known for being really efficient against combo decks. If this is the path you are taking, going down to 2 Scape makes even more sense (threat heavier / less combo..y)

4) I feel like Boseiju is heavily redundant (CITP is something I really dislike). 3 Pyro / 3 SLG should be enough to push through a wall of countermagic.

5) No gravehate SB ?
From my point of view pyro is very weak in a proactive deck like Scapeshift. I would take any chance to discard + surgical before playing pyro. And I'm speaking about personal experience here; as having to hold one mana (red, here) has been eventually detrimental:
a) If you play pyro you have to assess whether holding one mana for pyro is better than advancing your game (which you would do anyway 98 % time, because we all know about the risk aversion's theory). Not to mention that this is an easy move to read for a competent opponent.
b) If you don't play pyro, you can still pretend/bluffing playing it if you don't need to tap out.

6) No Toxic SB ?
I'm not a ferocious proponent for Toxic as a wish target but still we do have to respect aggro strategies (elfes, merfolk, tokens etc...).
You were complaining about not having a clear out to Elves and I feel like the mini recurring loop (Pyro or Deed/E.W/Meren) can be as nasty as it gets and difficult to break for an elves player if you get to that point (actually getting to pyro the board once should give you enough time to GSZ+E.W pyro again or deed which should give you enough time to assemble the aforementioned loop).

7) What if you cut Primeval Titan for Meren ?

I have never tried Nissa, but I feel like it could be your lategame bomb (freeing up one slot MD). It gives you space for Meren which provides you a lot of recurring options.
Still one has to assess whether games won by Titan would have been won with Meren/Nissa

Anyway, as usual thank for sharing your ideas and let's discuss.

Ralf

@Ralf:

1) The card's power is definitely worth it imo. The 2nd Wood Elves was always kind of an awkward slot, so I'm glad to upgrade it to something a bit less embarrassing in the mid-to-late game. Basic Forest could be an issue, and is something I have my eye on. The deck might need an 8th basic, likely a 4th Forest. It would probably come at the cost of the 3rd Bayou, which is a little steep of a cost, but it's either that or the 3rd Verdant, which I think is more important. Maybe the 2nd Swamp? I dunno yet.

2) I didn't build the list for myself; I built it for my roommate, who is primarily a combo player. I personally would probably just run it as a 2-of, but he really wants to be able to kill people, so, your mileage (should) vary.

3) This is a sideeffect of the Painful Truths. Painful Truths is too crazy in this deck to not run, and there are a very limited number of spots -- you'll note that there wasn't enough room for maindeck Decays, either, which is something that has been good and likely still is. On the flip side, Truths helps you draw into more Wishes, more Therapies, and more gas to drown out counter protection. This build of the deck leans a little more on Scapeshift density than on clearing the way first and then resolving. I could see cutting 1 Scapeshift for 1 Thoughtseize, but I just don't think that the slots exist for 2 copies maindeck without some serious sacrifices.

4) It could be. I respect Miracles as a deck and want to be able to push through that matchup. I personally think that the degree of improvement in the Miracles matchup when you have a land (which they have no way of removing) which makes your kill card uninteractable is worth one space. If you want to skate without it, I'm certainly not going to fault you for that opinion.

5) Graveyard decks have always been Scape's achilles heel -- reanimator is unwinnable, and dredge is close. I have said in the past that trying to beat graveyard-based combo decks with Scapewish is not worth the space you need to sacrifice to accomplish it, and I maintain that opinion. You beat Reanimator and friends by dodging it, not by junking up your sideboard with a couple Tormod's Crypts that you'll never draw / resolve anyway.

6) I actually thought about Deluge long and hard when I was assembling the list. I came to the conclusion that you don't actually need it. Deluge was always primarily for True-Name Nemesis, which is a card that doesn't have a lot of market share at the moment. It's not awful to board in vs Elves, but I'm of the opinion that it's too slow most of the time. If you want to beat Elves, you really need to sideboard ~3 Pyroclasms to make it happen, which then cuts into your Slaughter Games slots. If you cut the 3rd Scape maindeck for a Thoughtseize, and then cut Thoughtseize 2 and Boseiju from the sideboard for 2x Pyroclasm, Elves probably becomes a much better matchup -- but, again, I don't think it really becomes favorable at any point, and I'd still rather have the Boseiju to make Miracles strongly favored.

7) I learned a long time ago to never cut Primeval Titan in Scape. The card wins you so many games that you have no right winning. If the choice was between Primeval and Nissa, and I could somehow only have one of them, I would still choose Primeval in this deck. Some games you'll stare at it and be like, why is this piece of shit in my deck -- and those games feel bad, sure, but they're a trap, because Primetime is a bro and he'll pull your ass out of the fire when you need him to.

---------------

@LordOMJ:

You don't need fetchable white sources, really. You have Brainstorm, Jacestorm, and Green Suns if Bad Shit (tm) happens to your white sources. More often than not, your plan is to Zenith out Rhinos, not cast them. You also have 2 Deathrites that can assist, and if you know you're on the cast-a-rhino plan, you can always Zenith up a Deathrite a turn or two earlier to be ready just in case.

There's already 6 fetches, so if you wanted to go up to 8, you'd only need two cuts, which likely means the Bayou and the Confluence. I like the idea of the Confluence, but agree that it needs testing to see actual relevance. Going fewer than 7 basics is not something I am going to do -- 7 has always worked well for me, going back many, many years now.

I'll note that I'm basing the manabase off of my white list's manabase, which has never had a problem supporting Slaughter Games in combo matchups with 6 fetch 1 taiga 2 deathrite as the only red sources -- in that light, this version is already ahead on sources since it also has the confluence.

After playing the deck a lot and having read this thread pretty much daily, I can say I have my decent share of experience on how this archetype works. I have to say thanks to all the wonderful people that contribute to this thread daily and respond in a very educated and thoughtful manner. So let's see the list I'm currently working with at the moment; I only play junk so I won't consider Jund and BUG. One last thing: the Painful Truths are still there because I simply want to play a little bit more with them to allow myself to form a definite opinion about them. I don't like Painful Truths to be honest, but I hate to admit that against Miracles I want to have a constant flow of threats to cast, especially when both we and the opponent are in top deck mode with 1-2 cards in hand. I find that in this frequent situation we can only play 1 dumb dude that's pretty much gonna be forced or counterspelled; as it is clear to everyone top helps our draws but doesn't give us raw power to put on the table.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile

1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heaths*
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
(don't watch my manabase, I know it isn't optimal but that's for budget reasons)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg


My considerations:
-I like the sideboard, I have followed your ideas and I'm happy with how it plays. After G1 I feel we have a shot against storm, and to me that alone is surprising considering we are playing Rhino.dec. Carpet is a must, I'd never play without them.

-Teeg in the sideboard. I have played with him in the main for a long time but he really is the key part of our survival plan only against storm (and elves, right?); occasionally he would prevent my opponent to cast Jace (in my opinion people in this thread generally underestimate how Jace can destroy us) but that was only situational, and I think that in these kind of Jace matchups he is just gonna bait a Stp and/or is not gonna stay on the table very much.

-Volrath Stronghold. I know. I'll have fun with it for a bit and I will eventually take it out.

-Elspeth, Garruk, Thrun and Tsunami are the bombs for the blue.dec matchups. Thrun and Elspeth have been amazing for me and have won me games; I still don't know if I wanna 100% keep Tsunami but I like to force the opponent to have a counterspell or die to this kind of cards. We want to drop bombs after durdling, after all.

-I have decided I want to treat Meren as a value-bomb, but I am not willing to warp my main plan to accomodate for her. I don't like intents anyways, and I have chosen to not play Qasali Pridemage.

-No Courser of Kruphix for the reasons I have posted a couple of days ago.

-Judgement is coming in the planeswalkers matchups, where WW is not going to be a problem. I could, maybe should, play Vindicate because of the easier cost.

-3 Rhino: he is our best friend but 4 is too much. In my opinion 2 is too few because the helix attached to him has won me a lot of games, and this lead me to think that I wanna see him more often just to be able to win off the drain 3 effect, even in otherwise desperate/unwinnable situations (Ricardio, I'm sure you can confirm that winning vs Miracles with the helix is one of the best feelings ever).

That is all. I'm still learning from all the people here, but I wanted to post to get some feedback and to say what I have gathered during my testing sessions. Excuse me again for my english, I'm sure I have made some mistake somewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Ralf:

1) The card's power is definitely worth it imo. The 2nd Wood Elves was always kind of an awkward slot, so I'm glad to upgrade it to something a bit less embarrassing in the mid-to-late game. Basic Forest could be an issue, and is something I have my eye on. The deck might need an 8th basic, likely a 4th Forest. It would probably come at the cost of the 3rd Bayou, which is a little steep of a cost, but it's either that or the 3rd Verdant, which I think is more important. Maybe the 2nd Swamp? I dunno yet.

2) I didn't build the list for myself; I built it for my roommate, who is primarily a combo player. I personally would probably just run it as a 2-of, but he really wants to be able to kill people, so, your mileage (should) vary.

3) This is a sideeffect of the Painful Truths. Painful Truths is too crazy in this deck to not run, and there are a very limited number of spots -- you'll note that there wasn't enough room for maindeck Decays, either, which is something that has been good and likely still is. On the flip side, Truths helps you draw into more Wishes, more Therapies, and more gas to drown out counter protection. This build of the deck leans a little more on Scapeshift density than on clearing the way first and then resolving. I could see cutting 1 Scapeshift for 1 Thoughtseize, but I just don't think that the slots exist for 2 copies maindeck without some serious sacrifices.

4) It could be. I respect Miracles as a deck and want to be able to push through that matchup. I personally think that the degree of improvement in the Miracles matchup when you have a land (which they have no way of removing) which makes your kill card uninteractable is worth one space. If you want to skate without it, I'm certainly not going to fault you for that opinion.

5) Graveyard decks have always been Scape's achilles heel -- reanimator is unwinnable, and dredge is close. I have said in the past that trying to beat graveyard-based combo decks with Scapewish is not worth the space you need to sacrifice to accomplish it, and I maintain that opinion. You beat Reanimator and friends by dodging it, not by junking up your sideboard with a couple Tormod's Crypts that you'll never draw / resolve anyway.

6) I actually thought about Deluge long and hard when I was assembling the list. I came to the conclusion that you don't actually need it. Deluge was always primarily for True-Name Nemesis, which is a card that doesn't have a lot of market share at the moment. It's not awful to board in vs Elves, but I'm of the opinion that it's too slow most of the time. If you want to beat Elves, you really need to sideboard ~3 Pyroclasms to make it happen, which then cuts into your Slaughter Games slots. If you cut the 3rd Scape maindeck for a Thoughtseize, and then cut Thoughtseize 2 and Boseiju from the sideboard for 2x Pyroclasm, Elves probably becomes a much better matchup -- but, again, I don't think it really becomes favorable at any point, and I'd still rather have the Boseiju to make Miracles strongly favored.

7) I learned a long time ago to never cut Primeval Titan in Scape. The card wins you so many games that you have no right winning. If the choice was between Primeval and Nissa, and I could somehow only have one of them, I would still choose Primeval in this deck. Some games you'll stare at it and be like, why is this piece of shit in my deck -- and those games feel bad, sure, but they're a trap, because Primetime is a bro and he'll pull your ass out of the fire when you need him to.

---

Thanks for your thoughts, here are some additional comments:

1) Boseiju does not help you casting Pernicious Deed, Creatures, Pyro. Aside from GSZ and Scape, the card is too narrow to my taste. Miracle is all about resolving a Pernicious & some SLG(s).
Furthermore, boseiju is a dead sideboard card in too many MU(s) (every non blue MU to be honest).

2) I was not talking about Tormod Crypt. Surgical extraction is a card I have learnt to respect. It has a wider application than Pyro and can mess up pretty big time with Miracle as well. I wouldn't focus on Dredge, Rea only. Any combo deck should also respect the card as it can give you way more free wins than Pyro. Coupled with CT and TS you can really shred a hand or take out a major combo piece. The fact that it has collateral damage against Rea, Dredge, ANT, Miracle just to name a few (miracle card, tops, FOW, snapcaster) is just cherry on the cake.
If I had really wanted to speak about gravehate against dredge or Rea, I would have named Scavenging Ooze (Dryad Militant to a lesser extend) and I already know your position about it.
And if you wonder I'm not routing for Surgical at any costs. If we find a better card than those, we shall play it.

3) Don't get me wrong. I don't criticize your list. Choices have to be made and I'm just trying to weight the pros and cons of each slot.
My point about Primeval is that I can see him as a very costly slot. Cannot we win against as many MU as without him (with cheaper card) ? That is the question I am asking (and that has to be addressed somehow).
The fact that it saved your (and mine) ass several times by the past should not prevent us from weighting its impact on the current metagame.

- Where did Primetime shine above all ? From experience, it shined mainly in grindy MU (mainly against BSK.deck to be honest). I truly think Meren and Nissa could do the same work (but it has to be assessed). Why ?

For example, against D&T, you would be able to trick your opponent once with Meren (when karakas is tapped out). Here, Meren is low.
What about Nissa ? It could be a gamebreaker, here. G1 D&T has no way to deal with eight 6/6 if you can reach the ulti. But Nissa can also be bounced by Karakas in response to the land trigger.
When you have both Meren and Nissa in hand, 7 mana untapped mana is all what you need to play around a karakas.
Is it enough ? Or is Primeval better ?

- What are the other MU(s) where Primeval could have shined (is shining):
a) Miracle (killing a Jace is nice)
b) Jund / Shardless (killing a liliana, bob, some creature)
c) S&T (giving you enough permanents to survive a sneaked Emrakul)
d) I might forget a few other but its main other application is to get use of the valakut triggers without playing Scape.

Do you truly think that Nissa + Meren cannot do the same or bring other winning lines of play?
Maybe or maybe not.

But I'm pretty sure I'm not looking at any card in my deck like a "bro" that can pull my ass out of nowhere. I want a clear pattern (lines of play) of what to do against any MU. If Primeval is better than Meren+Nissa in just one more MU than the pair, Primeval will be played. That's all.

I also might be wrong about Primetime and maybe (as you wrote) a huntmaster has to go to make room for Meren.
Although in legacy, I usually start by cutting the top of the curve. Because I want to have the maximum impact in the very first turns.
Dying with an almighty Primetime in hand happens (and more likely than with a Huntmaster or a Meren).

4) You have reduced the mana ramp amount of your scape list (at some point, you were playing 2 sakura 2 Wood elves). I was not suggesting that you have cut a Wood Elves for a Nissa. It could have been Wood or Sakura. I'm just stating that your list has 1 less ramp creature and thus that the list is less about ramping as fast as possible to get a Scape kill. The "basic forest" thing might not be a cute trap at all.
I learnt that fixing mana is key in Scape and having access to the color you lack by T3 was maybe one of the strengh of the original list.

Well, these comments are just food for thoughts just to keep us alerted that any deck should evolve. What has worked in the past, may or may not work again or we might have better/cheaper solutions that lead us to the same goal: games win.

Or the Spike/Timmy, that live within me, cannot get along together and I should just let it go...

Hi guys,
today i was testing my junk version
i posted my list 2 or 3 pages back, only made some little changes, for example add Diabolic intent -oooh boy!
ok, at first i played against BUG
i play bad and made mistakes, games was long, but still 2:0 for nic fit
Only creeping tar pit was enoying

Next i was playing against mono blue faries with stand stills
This MU was much harder then i expect Stifling + wastelandings... and back to basic?! ....
veteran gave him his basics and he can cast and attach jitte to his delvers and faries
BUT stoneforge supporting us with Sword of fire and ice was often enough, especialy on Sigarda :D

Last MU i tried was mono red stompy with goblin packages
His silver bullets wasnt silver enough against nic fit...
Sweepers was just decimating

In every MU i drawed Diabolic intent .... and this card is huuuuge!!!
Toxic deluge, Sword of fire and ice... sigarda... whatever you want, whatever you need
When u r playing Intent, Dryad is must...
Funny combo is when u have intent and 2 veterans, or veteran + phyrexial tower...
sac veteran to intent, get two lands, fetch for tower, sac second vet, get 2 lands, get two mana from tower..
but its not often constalation... but opponents face is just WTF

And after today playing , iam glad for Stoneforge and his little tools
In early game you have presure..
When u have mana screw, you can still casting threats
In late game its 1/2 guy which can fetch for 5mana batterbomb or sword which is still key card in some MU
And finaly its next body for Intent when she did his job
EDIT:
i almost forget about Meren...
When i cast sigarda every turn, she ate daze, second time FoW .. and meren still put her back to my hand and opponent with faeriest desperatly try to get her out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

And after today playing , iam glad for Stoneforge and his little tools
In early game you have presure..
When u have mana screw, you can still casting threats
In late game its 1/2 guy which can fetch for 5mana batterbomb or sword which is still key card in some MU
And finaly its next body for Intent when she did his job

---

Yes.
SFM package is huge in Junk Nic Fit and you have perfectly summ'd the reasons to play it.
I would also add that SFM package might be the best tool (ever) against rogue deck in general.

T3 -> BSK/jitte is a hell of a deal for any fair deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

...

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

---

Dude, you need to run removal. Lifegain is fun and all, but you have to survive to the point where that lifegain actually starts to happen. I think you'd be better of with Rhino Fit + Brainstorm & Ponder, if you can get the manabase to work. The blue stuff just doesn't have enough impact to warrant its place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brael

I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

---

Meh, just durdle durdle, Rhino Rhino. Works perfectly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rubblekill

...

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile

1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heaths*
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
(don't watch my manabase, I know it isn't optimal but that's for budget reasons)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg

...

---

Your manabase is fine. I'd switch the Stronghold for a BW fetch and perhaps drop red & Taiga for a 2nd BW fetch. That'd leave you with the manabase I run and I can tell you it works just fine. No need to run more Bayous and friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

Hi guys,
today i was testing my junk version
i posted my list 2 or 3 pages back, only made some little changes, for example add Diabolic intent -oooh boy!

...

In every MU i drawed Diabolic intent .... and this card is huuuuge!!!
Toxic deluge, Sword of fire and ice... sigarda... whatever you want, whatever you need
When u r playing Intent, Dryad is must...

---

You're welcome & yep, it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

You're welcome & yep, it is.

---

Yep , thanks for advice :)

Aaand, now i know why you like slaughters game in side...
i lose 2:0 against loaming pox with Merit Lege... two times in a row i just warch this cheap combo and cant do enything ...
In game two:he played 2x crop rotation, slaughters game after the first one result would be cute :(

I'm not the Slaughtergames fanatic... I'm the guy with the endless supply of Path to Exiles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

I'm not the Slaughtergames fanatic... I'm the guy with the endless supply of Path to Exiles.

---

Yea i try to find Swords but when he played 2x crop rotation on the end of your turn... there is not much time for that ....

I can use from my SB:
1xNeedle
2xBlood moon
1x Vindicate - but sorcery speed is rly bad for this :/
and probably 1 piece of Slaughters game put to my SB, not sure yet...

In main i have:
1x Karakas
1x Diabolic Intent for Karakas

This games drive me back to idea of Knight of the Reliquary for fetch Karakas...

So... I've got a 16 man invitational coming up this saturday. I'm expecting at least the following opponents:
1 Grixis Delver w/ a minor green splash for his DRS
1 Lands
1/2 Miracles
1/2 BUG/Shardless Bug
3 ANT/TES
1 Maverick
1 fellow Abzan Nic Fit
1 Burn
and 3 players I don't know from the top of my head.

I reckon the biggest threats are Lands (unless I get my fancy Meren + sac outlet + Eternal Witness + PtE engine online quickly), Miracles and the Storm decks.

My regular SB is as follows:
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace

Does anyone have any tips on what changes to make to the SB? My main 60 are going to be the same as at the monthly, with the exception of switching a DRS for a Starved Rusalka (yes, I'm nuts). I'm also toying with the idea of switching a MB Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg to increase my chances of stealing game 1 vs. Storm. Thoughts on that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Does anyone have any tips on what changes to make to the SB? My main 60 are going to be the same as at the monthly, with the exception of switching a DRS for a Starved Rusalka (yes, I'm nuts). I'm also toying with the idea of switching a MB Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg to increase my chances of stealing game 1 vs. Storm. Thoughts on that?

---

Do you have your usual sideboard tables ready ?

Without them it would be difficult to give you any useful advice.

Gaddock is usually an auto-win vs Storm but chances you will be able to cast it are very low. Why ?

If you are not dead by T2, it means that the following sequence has took place (assuming you are on the play):

T1 -> land + cantrip (ponder for example)
T2 -> land + Cabal/Duress for a T3 kill.

If your opponent knows you are on NicFit, they will usually name/take GSZ.

So based on this scenario, your best bet might not be "Gaddock". I would pick any hatebear @ 1 CMC.

Dryad Militant might be a better choice given the number of Storm you are anticipating.
Sure, they still can get out of it, but it is a real pain in the ass.

Not to mention that Dryad has also a wider application against some of your MUs:
- Miracle -> Gaddock is better, but still Dryad has to be dealt with because it messes pretty hard with snapcaster shenanigans (in other words, your opponent HAS to STP it before any other creature if not STP will be exiled)
- Storm -> Gaddock is auto win G1. Dryad only makes sure the PIF plan is out of contention (not much use against TES but well you never know) and will give you a shit load of time to kill him (mess up with cabal ritual as well, etc...).
- Lands -> Dryad is an all star, Gaddock is useless. It will exile the first PF if dealt with or will completely shut up Loam if your opponent doesn't find a removal for it.
- BUG -> Dryad is not very strong, Gaddock is almost useless (save FOW). At least Goyf won't grow fast and there will be no/less food for DRS ping ability (and you are in the control seat here so the longer the game lasts, the better if you ask me)
- Burn -> I guess Dryad is slightly better. Gaddock will shut their biggest spell but also will prevent you from casting GSZ which is here very detrimental. Dryad will be able to block a turn faster and will mess with lavamancer.
- Maverick -> it depends of the Maverick version (straight GW or dark maverick or punish Mav etc...) none are really very useful here save the exile 1st PF thing.

My 2 cents

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralf

Do you have your usual sideboard tables ready ?

Without them it would be difficult to give you any useful advice.

---

I usually go with what feels right. For the mentioned MU's I'd probably SB as follows:

Miracles:
+ 2 Carpet of Flowers
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
- 2 Veteran Explorer
- 2 Path to Exile
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Deathrite Shaman

ANT:
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Dragonlord Dromoka

TES:
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Golgari Charm
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile
- 1 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Dragonlord Dromoka
- 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

Lands:
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Pithing Needle
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Deathrite Shaman
- 1 Veteran Explorer

For the other MU's I depend less heavily on the SB (ie. I'd almost be comfortable with playing G2 and/or G3 with the same 60 as I start with).

I have also edited my previous post.

1) Miracles:

+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
+ 1 Golgari charm
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile (-2 if monastery)
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

DRS is an all-star vs Snapcaster. Just be clever and use it on sorcery speed cards in your opponent's graveyard at his EOT.
If STP is in the grave, just use it anyway (not on STP, always on sorcery speed). It will give a window for your opponent to flashback the said STP but I truly believe that we have to be aggressive in this MU. It is also a play I like very much because your opponent might have to full tap for casting that Snap + STP, giving you a very nice window to cast something useful during your turn.

Cabal Therapy is bad in this MU. You will likely have very few creatures in play and you cannot really make card disadvantage if you don't hit. Duress is your must-go-to.

I won't be that much afraid by Monastery if I were you. But well, if you really want to keep some PTE...

Golgari is a card I have known to appreciate as a 1-of or 2-of. It can save you from an aggro hand (clique + snap / monastery aggro), lethal entreat, and can deal with CB. Just be sure to take the maximum value out of it. It is sometime a dead card but can be really helpful.

2) TES / ANT

No difference here.
ANT will likely bank his ass on Empty the Warren on G2. Golgari + Deed must stay in. I would go with TES sideboard.
Try to keep Dragonlord in. I know you have 0.0001 % to cast it but it races tokens and can put you out of reach really really fast.

3) Lands

I would keep every DRS. I know it dies to PF but it messes with its loam/PF engine. You will always almost want to start a hand with a DRS in it. It also bypasses the Glacial chasm thing (like Rhino).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

Iam little bit diaspointed cose of missing Pithing needle
This little thorn can be pretty anoying for lots of decks...
Miracle- lock Jace, ban Top if you dont have your own... but still he needs top more then u
Elves ban his symbiote is deadly in combination with sweepers... and disturb his glimpse combo hard, or Quirion or whatever he has on the table...
Kill Dark depth combo and this sort of stuffs..
Maverick is pretty enoying with his mothers... or wasteland cycle with Knight. his equipments and so on...
and there is much more...

For 1 mana, yes please :)

---

Read back !
Echelon is playing 2 Pithing.

Yup, they're too versatile not to.

@NagsOn: Why should I care about a KotR/Wasteland lock..? My 7 basics give me all the mana I need. As for Mother of Runes - PtE while it's still summoning sick works perfectly, as do Golgari Charm and Pernicious Deed. No need for Pithing Needle in that MU.

Also, as an Elves! player - Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote does not stop the Glimpse chain in the slightest and is very easily answered with GSZ -> Reclamation Sage. Seriously, it isn't even a speedbump.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Yup, they're too versatile not to.

@NagsOn: Why should I care about a KotR/Wasteland lock..? My 7 basics give me all the mana I need. As for Mother of Runes - PtE while it's still summoning sick works perfectly, as do Golgari Charm and Pernicious Deed. No need for Pithing Needle in that MU.

Also, as an Elves! player - Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote does not stop the Glimpse chain in the slightest and is very easily answered with GSZ -> Reclamation Sage. Seriously, it isn't even a speedbump.

---

Not just Lock... but KotR can overgrow your Rhino pretty quick and its main weapon of maverick, same the equipments..
Pernicious Deed, ok but dont forget that he has Abrupts and Quasali.. often you have to saf Deed in turn you play it , and not often u have 6 mana to kill all his dudes..
Deed is ofc the best what you can get against Maverick, but Needle can help... Maverick rly depend on activating abilites
and some version play dark depth combo... so again you can stop him with needle

Elves: very often elves keep in play only cose of symbiote
Its one of the best card of the deck....
I maybe dont understand nic fit, but i know elves very well... and needles pissed me off ...
And if he spent his GSZ... then it was a good deal for u

But i dont wanna tell you that in some situation Golgarys charm is better...
But in my oppinion needle has more use in more mu then golgarys charm... maybe just in my meta, maybe not..
but still needle is good card and you cant say that its not true

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

Not just Lock... but KotR can overgrow your Rhino pretty quick and its main weapon of maverick, same the equipments..
Pernicious Deed, ok but dont forget that he has Abrupts and Quasali.. often you have to saf Deed in turn you play it , and not often u have 6 mana to kill all his dudes..
Deed is ofc the best what you can get against Maverick, but Needle can help... Maverick rly depend on activating abilites

Elves: very often elves keep in play only cose of symbiote
Its one of the best card of the deck....
I maybe dont understand nic fit, but i know elves very well... and needles pissed me off ...
And if he spent his GSZ... then it was a good deal for u

---

We have DRS & Scavenging Ooze to keep KotR in check (if we're unable to PtE it in the first place) so we don't need to waste slots on Peedles there. And equipments need platforms to do anything. And die from our own (recurring) Qasali Pridemage. Deed you often blow for 1/2 mana. And who cares about wiping his entire board? As long as Deed is a 2 for 1 or better, it's fine by me. For any creatures remaining post-Deed we have other answers.

You're also not the only Elves! player here. And I seriously don't give a rats ass about Needle when wearing my Elves!-cap. Just keep building your board and NO right over it. Yeah, Symbiote is the best elf in the deck but also the one that dies the quickest. Its average lifespan is <1 turn so sorry if I'm not overly attached to it. I much more fear the Rhino that keeps coming my way b/c I can't answer it. If I start blocking, I'm pretty much fucked. I also fear my board getting Golgari Charm'd away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

We have DRS & Scavenging Ooze to keep KotR in check (if we're unable to PtE it in the first place) so we don't need to waste slots on Peedles there. And equipments need platforms to do anything. And die from our own (recurring) Qasali Pridemage. Deed you often blow for 1/2 mana. And who cares about wiping his entire board? As long as Deed is a 2 for 1 or better, it's fine by me. For any creatures remaining post-Deed we have other answers.

You're also not the only Elves! player here. And I seriously don't give a rats ass about Needle when wearing my Elves!-cap. Just keep building your board and NO right over it. Yeah, Symbiote is the best elf in the deck but also the one that dies the quickest. Its average lifespan is <1 turn so sorry if I'm not overly attached to it.

---

your choice...
you asked for advices, this is my advice , i like needle, you dont, you dont have to play it :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

your choice...
you asked for advices, this is my advice , i like needle, you dont, you dont have to play it :)

---

I run 2 Needles in my SB, learn to read. I'm just of the opinion that they're mostly wasted on Elves! and I'm better off keeping the threatcount as high as possible. The biggest threat Elves! poses is the turn 3 (or any other turn) NO -> Craterhoof. Needle does not answer that threat. Same goes for the Maverick MU - the threats Maverick pose are nothing I cannot answer so why dilute my 60 with Needles?

Also, there'll be no (known) Elves! pilots in the invitational the sideboarding discussion was about, so who cares about boarding in or not boarding in Peedles against it. In this case it's a non-argument to run Peedles. So, again, learn to read.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

I'm just of the opinion that they're mostly wasted on Elves! and I'm better off keeping the threatcount as high as possible. The biggest threat Elves! poses is the turn 3 (or any other turn) NO -> Craterhoof. Needle does not answer that threat.

---

I agree that if he had what he need u r screwed and no needle help you...
especialy t2...
but there are not much cards which rly does
Elves and other combo MU is just about hoping in good draw... in ideal situation discart his glimpse or NO , sweep his board and start with your bombs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

So, again, learn to read.

---

No need to be offense, iam writting here to discus with you your sideboard.

Needle is pretty poor against elves. The first few turns will need to be disruption, so TS, Duress, CT -> flashback when you are on a junk/jund deck because as @echelon said the way to lose against elves is the early NO. If you can stop that then you should have enough time to deploy a sweeper in the form of deed/decay and then leverage either pfire or trample + jitte to mop up.

Needle doesnt add to that game plan. This deck doesnt utilize (well except the new frankenstein-fit that was posted) brainstorm so you cant run cards that narrow in a matchup because you do not have a way to replace it. If you open on a needle that is a card you are down UNLESS you can craft the game to make needle valuable which is unlikely. I think this is reflective of the SB in general.

I played Nic Fit this past weekend. Didn't have all the cards for it but just wanted to have fun because IDGAF sometimes. It was refreshing to play a list "just for giggles". Ran into @Arianrhod, who was doing some interesting things.

I played Junk Nic Fit -- couldn't obtain Meren -- and felt Recurring Nightmare wasn't nearly as strong. I was stupid and forgot Teeg in the 75. I think Teeg is a maindeck necessity, based off this past experience.

Random thoughts:
1. Rhino

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brael

I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

---

I ran 3 Rhino, 1 Tusk and felt that was a strong combination. For all the good in the world Rhino is, you better have his colors in the opening hand.

2. Sigarda is ridiculous in this deck
3. I ran 3 deeds and felt I needed 4. Even against Burn.
4. Slaughtering Games, even when it connected, didn't win me games against Miracles.
5. Deathrite Shaman was "okay" but not as strong as I had hoped. I went 3:3 Explorers/DRS and felt I saw too many inopportune Shamans. I actually could have benefited from a Wall or Sakura instead of DRS. Sounds awful on paper, doesn't it?
6. Despite running 3 Sensei's Tops, I and barely saw them. Variance is a thing.
7. In Junk-Fit, you shouldn't run KotR. I love her to death, but she's just not enough in Nic Fit. Played 0 this past weekend and never missed her.
8. Grave Titan = unnecessary
9. Tasigur = overachieved all day
10. Singleton Maelstrom Pulse should have been Vindicate. Why do I still neglect Vindicate?

Tasigur seems meh. I feel 3 deeds is the sweet spot.

Personally, I run 4 rhino and a tusk. They are amazing and I wouldn't cut them for anything. Other than a boat.

Sadly sfm went up on mtgo and I'm wary of spending dollars to get her and equipment to test out a sfm fit list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ricardio

Tasigur seems meh. I feel 3 deeds is the sweet spot.

Personally, I run 4 rhino and a tusk. They are amazing and I wouldn't cut them for anything. Other than a boat.

Sadly sfm went up on mtgo and I'm wary of spending dollars to get her and equipment to test out a sfm fit list.

---

Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards

I've been on three deed main and one in the board for awhile. I feel like I always either want to bring the one in the board in or take the the main board ones out. That said I like the configuration as I feel 3 is the minimum you want when it's good, and the 4th can come in when it's really good while making main board space for a more versatile card.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rubblekill

Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards

---

Yesterday i was pondering with exactly the same question. Eventually i toyed around with the idea of cutting Siege Rhino of the deck. This, because i feel that Rhino does not work towards actual board control (similar to the control that Jund lists have). The flexibility the cards add that Rhino can't provide in bring the deck more to it's roots. What i came up with was (offcourse replacing Thrun, Tusk and STitan brings back Rhino action... completing the vicious circle):

Edit, tapatalk is not always the most clean way to post lists from memory:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Golgari charm
1 Pithing Needle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rubblekill

Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards

---

The way I've run a StoneFit list has been to cut my top end (2 Grave Titans), cut 1 Deed because of the lack of synergy with your equipment (and the fact that Jitte is usually decent removal on its own), cut one flex spot (tutor / draw effect, this could be a Truths or a Wish or a Top), and cut one of my Lilianas or a piece of spot removal. My "finishers" / top of the curve end up being: 3 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte, 2 Rhino, sometimes 1 Meren, and 1 Titania. You lose some synergy and gain the ability to grind almost any deck in the format and to function on as few as 2 mana. It's a fun configuration but I honestly haven't had any more or less success with it than with a standard Junk Nic Fit deck. My gut says that it's even better against fair decks than traditional Nic Fit but sacrifices even more to combo.

Hope that helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Yesterday i was pondering with exactly the same question. Eventually i toyed around with the idea of cutting Siege Rhino of the deck. This, because i feel that Rhino does not work towards actual board control (similar to the control that Jund lists have). The flexibility the cards add that Rhino can't provide in bring the deck more to it's roots. What i came up with was (offcourse replacing Thrun, Tusk and STitan brings back Rhino action... completing the vicious circle):

Edit, tapatalk is not always the most clean way to post lists from memory:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Golgari charm
1 Pithing Needle

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But..but..muh rhino
This resembles a pre-ktk list right? I don't know man I feel that rhino is the core of the junk deck, I can't abandon him. In all seriousness if you add bob and wasteland you basically have dga, a deck that can grind harder with hymns, liliana and souls + bob ca in my opinion. With sfm we gain an advantage vs fair creature decks, but I feel like we lose something in the other mus? Please correct me if I'm wrong. By the way, with sfm the urge to play souls would be strong for me
No s games?? Explain your thought process please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

But..but..muh rhino

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Rhino pleh!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

In all seriousness if you add bob and wasteland you basically have dga, a deck that can grind harder with hymns, liliana and souls + bob ca in my opinion. With sfm we gain an advantage vs fair creature decks, but I feel like we lose something in the other mus?

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Playing NicFit vs the non-NicFit variants i have always preferred the NicFit decks, because those play out much nicer. I can't say that you should play DGA over Jund or NicFit. What i can say, and i can't say this enough, NicFit is very META sensitive and NicFit does have MU's where you'd want Wasteland or more midgame tempo. Having that said, there is shitty low room for ALL the goodstuff.
I dont thunk we loose anything with SFM vs other MU's. Combo, MUD, Lands and Eldrazi remain a nightmare, but att leasr SFM adds more control in the fair MU's.
And Rhino is a choice, not a must. In a meta where you'd want to play creative Rhino is not what you want to be doing. But we are blinded to often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I don't know man I feel that rhino is the core of the junk deck, I can't abandon him.

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No, we limit ourselves to much thinking Rhino is the core of NicFit, because it is not. Siege Rhino is a choice and not THE choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

By the way, with sfm the urge to play souls would be strong for me

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In NicFit i'd prefer Elspeth+Garruk any time over Lingering Souls. But i can't deny the cards power. Having that said, i really wouldn't know what to cut for them. Also, there is little synergy with Meren and Sun Titan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

No s games?? Explain your thought process please.

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There are a couple of things that annoy me with SGames in Junk. 1. It pollutes my manabase. 2. It conflicts with Gaddock Teeg. 3. When not playing the card in jund it feels underwhelming. Now with point 3 i have no idea how that works, maybe it because SGames in jund has a more natural flow or just because there is no other stuff your focussing on, or because Liliana is there to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Rhino pleh!!



Playing NicFit vs the non-NicFit variants i have always preferred the NicFit decks, because those play out much nicer. I can't say that you should play DGA over Jund or NicFit. What i can say, and i can't say this enough, NicFit is very META sensitive and NicFit does have MU's where you'd want Wasteland or more midgame tempo. Having that said, there is shitty low room for ALL the goodstuff.
I dont thunk we loose anything with SFM vs other MU's. Combo, MUD, Lands and Eldrazi remain a nightmare, but att leasr SFM adds more control in the fair MU's.
And Rhino is a choice, not a must. In a meta where you'd want to play creative Rhino is not what you want to be doing. But we are blinded to often.



No, we limit ourselves to much thinking Rhino is the core of NicFit, because it is not. Siege Rhino is a choice and not THE choice.



In NicFit i'd prefer Elspeth+Garruk any time over Lingering Souls. But i can't deny the cards power. Having that said, i really wouldn't know what to cut for them. Also, there is little synergy with Meren and Sun Titan.





There are a couple of things that annoy me with SGames in Junk. 1. It pollutes my manabase. 2. It conflicts with Gaddock Teeg. 3. When not playing the card in jund it feels underwhelming. Now with point 3 i have no idea how that works, maybe it because SGames in jund has a more natural flow or just because there is no other stuff your focussing on, or because Liliana is there to.

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You Are probably right, we have so many options that limiting ourselves on a specific option (rhino) might be dumb, we have to be open minded I agree. I'll try different options and report back here my impressions.

Ask and ye shall receive

21/22 Land

2 Sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
1 diabolic intent
3 decay
3 Deed
1 Vindicate
1 painful truths
1 Flexy slot (2nd intent or 3rd top or 4th decay or whatever)

4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 GSun
1 dryad
4 vet
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 ewit
1 Troll Ascetic (He turns your gsuns into thruns! And he still gets to that magic 5 power with equipments)
1 Meren
1 Rhino/Thrun (Pretty fun running 3 hexproof creatures, but trample is relevant)
1 Sigarda

Disruption, removal, sweepers, card selection and advantage, early game threats, late game threats and resilient sword carrying creatures to go over the top. (You haven't lived until a pro black Sigarda is happily fending off a Marit Lage until you find your batterskull)

Sideboard starts as
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
6 combo hate cards, usually hatebears and graveyard interaction

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Ask and ye shall receive

21/22 Land

2 Sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
1 diabolic intent
3 decay
3 Deed
1 Vindicate
1 painful truths
1 Flexy slot (2nd intent or 3rd top or 4th decay or whatever)

4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 GSun
1 dryad
4 vet
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 ewit
1 Troll Ascetic (He turns your gsuns into thruns! And he still gets to that magic 5 power with equipments)
1 Meren
1 Rhino/Thrun (Pretty fun running 3 hexproof creatures, but trample is relevant)
1 Sigarda

Disruption, removal, sweepers, card selection and advantage, early game threats, late game threats and resilient sword carrying creatures to go over the top. (You haven't lived until a pro black Sigarda is happily fending off a Marit Lage until you find your batterskull)

Sideboard starts as
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
6 combo hate cards, usually hatebears and graveyard interaction

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I'm going to acquire the sfm package later, so I want to know what you and Bob think about the equipment selection and the number of squires. Once I decide to remove muh rhinos to play bsk and friends it seems weird to not play sofi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I'm going to acquire the sfm package later, so I want to know what you and Bob think about the equipment selection and the number of squires. Once I decide to remove muh rhinos to play bsk and friends it seems weird to not play sofi

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When working on those lists i always try to dedicate 5 slots on the SFM package. Adding SoFaI would make perfect sense. So that would make 2 SFM and 3 Equipment.

I find Troll Ascetic interesting, but Sigarda and Thrun plus the protection for SoFaI and SoFaF it may be unnessesary.
I might now be pushing it, but Glissa, the Traitor looks Equipment friendly, and First Strike plus Deathtouch is insane.

@Bob,

You're thinking about troll ascetic in the wrong way. Statistically speaking you get Thrun off of a Greensun zenith more than you naturally cast him and we have therapies to push through counter spells, so the fact that Thrun is uncounterable is rarely relevant. So in the end Ascetic is just a cheaper Thrun. If you don't run equipment then Thrun being a bigger clock is relevant, but they both carry swords in the same manner. So if Ascetic is a cheaper Thrun (and is a resilient threat at the three drop (unlike knight etc)) then you can cut Thrun and then play siege rhino as your 4 drop beater for the life gain and trample.

Thrun doesn't make Ascetic unnecessary, Ascetic can make Thrun unecessary :P

I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)

@rubble, I'm a man of consistency. If I'm playing Stoneforge mystic I'm building my deck around her and I'm playing 4. That's 8 creatures I'm happy to sac my turn 1 therapy to on turn 2.
That's 8 creatures that trade favourably with nearly all removal spells (only vet with a STP is a sad panda)
That's 8 creatures that transition me to the mid-late game (SFM is a great speed bump to keep your opponent occupied)

SFM mystic is also a green sun zenith of sorts, fitting in the curve at 2, 5, and 7 while fetching disruption, removal, card draw, life gain or a resilient threat.

Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet. SFM gives you a great way of mitigating that while still being a great card to top deck turn 29.

Regarding what equipment to run, when I run 4 SFM I run 3 equipment always. We don't have brainstorm to shuffle them back. I don't run Jitte cause it interferes with our Deeds and SoFaI is removal anyway. It's not like we are short of ways of dealing with small creatures..

It's important as well that the equipment isn't dead against combo because you're dedicating a lot of cards in your deck to SFM (that said the other cards you would have played instead would likely be just as useful against combo and SFM is cheaper and sacs to therapy and diabolic intent while fetching something at least slightly relevant)

I run SoFaI for the card advantage, removal and the pressure (I just raced a turn 2 reanimated Iona set on white through two force of will because my second diabolic intent resolved fetching my SoFaI to swing for the win)

I run SoFaF as gaining tempo while playing disruptive cards and attacking their in hand is the best way for us to combat combo, the protection from green is relevant against elves and the black against Marit Lage.

BSK because it's a resilient threat (notice a theme?) life gain and makes people swords to plowshares your SFM when you know you'll be hard casting your BSK in a few turns anyway.

So yea, I'm a huge advocate of her if you haven't noticed...

SFM sucks balls vs. anything running discard/Cabal Therapy though. If only I had a buck for every time I pulled that trick, lol.

For some reason noone ever sees it coming. Silly people.