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@Matsu: Sigarda is probably better at killing Blade decks b/c she can't be answered by StP, so that's a poor reason to keep Dromoka. Dromoka is just ridiculously big and therefor hard to deal with for mostly any deck (most importantly non-white!), that's all.
I disagree, Sigarda cannot be answered by StP that is true. But she cannot block a creature with Batterskull attached and you still have to pass through counter spells. Dromoka can easily block equipped creatures and pass through counter spells. Most of the blade decks try to gain advantage at the beginning of the game and use StP to remove your Deathrite/veteran expolorer. Most of the time they have to dig for a StP. It takes approx 2/3 turn til they find and answer for Dromoka, this give you enough time to reset the board or play more creatures because their counter spells are useless from this point. From my experience Dromoka is better in this match up, if they are not on Black you can easily go Dromoka, then Sigarda and finish the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
It is great when they go Toxic for 7 and you just play Siege Rhino :laugh:
Meh, anyBlade is a fine MU without Dromoka. As for Batterskull, that's why I run a MD QPM. Works just fine. No need for Dromoka in the slightest.
Has anyone tried brewing with Nahiri, the Harbinger? I played Sneak Fit a little, but without Sensei's Divining Top, the deck felt too inconsistent for my tastes. Redundant Sneak Attacks were horrendous draws and the interactive elements of a straight Jund deck without Punishing Fire felt insufficient. I feel like adding a white splash for Nahiri can fix some of these issues. We're already playing the Emrakul to fetch with her ultimate. Her card selection ability allows us to pitch Sneak Attacks when they're bad. Her removal ability can answer hard to answer threats like Gurmag Angler or Mirran Crusader. The white splash also gives us access to a few powerful sideboard options and the ability to play Path to Exile, either main or sideboard. People can make the red splash in Junk Rhino lists work, so I figure we can do the same for a white splash in Jund.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_WZRD
I dug up the posts where Nahiri splash first showed up in SneakFit.
First discussion
List
Seems like a bad idea. 4 color rhino decks haven't really been popular or high performing. You're going to run into similar issues with Sneak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_WZRD
I think the better way to approach it would be to use Cathartic Reunion. It digs deep so it replicates SDT in some aspect, it's in color, and it gives you some card filtering. I don't follow Sneak all that closely so I don't know if it's been seriously tried, but that's where I would start.
Did bring bob fit to the geneva legacy 10 , 97 players and I scrubbed a 3-3 result before dropping.
won VS manaless dredge, grixis delver and D&T lost to ANT, S&S and helm fit (yeah 2 nic fit players in the room they got to play against each other)
report will follow, highlights are : manabase was unstable, unfair decks are unfair, crop rotation was splendid every time I draw it, chamelon colossus won me every game I played it.
Was very interested in the GB helm fit I faced, combo kill is so nice and the deck was pure control (and I was so wrecked by those deeds).
edit : helm fit in top 8 ! Will post his decklist has soon as I lay my hands on it.
I'm assuming you played something similar to what you posted before? With a lower curve you need more colored sources, that probably lead to mana instability. That's one of the reasons I like playing just two colors. Colossus and Rotation are always all stars for me (though I'm not currently playing Colossus).Quote:
Originally Posted by Plm
I too am interested in helm fit.
Yeah I played the same list but with the second tracker instead of the second witness.
My manabase problems are because I was so greedy with the utility lands (shouldn't have played cavern and ghost quarter in the main, but who knows maybe it's just my pairing that were unfavorable for those lands to shine).
Helm fit currently in top 4 !
Very interested in this helm fit list!!!
What I can summarize from that helm list (that top4ed in a field ripe with combo) is :
Green black no splash.
4 ley line 3 helm 2 intent.
2 hymn 2 brutality .
Decay and deed as removal.
At least 2 sylvan library and ob nixilis reignited.
I saw the usual suspects : witness and tracker. No big fat monster.
He told me that the helm kill accounted for 50% of his win.
I'll dig for the exact decklist.
Cool!
Hi all,
I am new to this thread ... this deck ... and Legacy in general. I have played MTG for many years now, but just never could afford to get into legacy (dual lands mainly!!!)
I love this style of deck and have most of the cards (apart from duals at the moment) ... but have really struggled to find (apart from this excellent thread/discussion) much resource or information elsewhere on the web. I look out for streamed competitions, but very rarely is there anyone playing a Nic Fit style deck.
After this long introduction, my question is ... why is Nic Fit such a niche (code for unpopular) deck choice and why do none of the known/pro magic players (apart from Andrea Mengucci) play it? Is it more of a fun deck to play, rather than a consistently 'good' deck when it comes to competitive play?
Nic Fit is a metagame predator that needs a specific meta to flourish. The biggest reason why competitive players tend to shy away from Nic Fit is b/c it has some horrible MUs. In a tournament setting it's better to run a deck that's mostly 50/50 across the board with a couple of very good MUs than to run a deck that's 60/40 (if that) against a part of the meta and like 20/80 against another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed4570
Another thing is that Nic Fit has the label of being an anything-goes deck where you can play whatever tickles your fancy. This is far from true though, as most lists are very deliberately configured the way they are. Every card plays some particular role. Nic Fit is also far more difficult to play well (consistently) than one might imagine. The lists that are constructed under the "anything goes"-mantra usually don't do very well. The most common pitfalls are running an unstable manabase and/or not respecting any form of a manacurve. The former causes the deck to crap itself by missing colours (and/or a sufficient quantity of mana), the latter clunks up hands resulting in death before being able to act b/c you're either too slow or get bit in the ass by mana denial.
Echelon already hit most of the salient points, but I'll reinforce a couple of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed4570
For one, a lot of the discussion has moved to the discord -- which has slowed this thread down a bit and the subreddit down to a crawl.
There isn't really a 'general purpose' Nic Fit in the way that Echelon noted, one that's good vs both fair decks and combo decks. It's theorized that if it exists, it's likely somewhere in the bug wedge, but it's evaded us for a long, long time. Instead, we have a Batman's Toolbelt of options which requires proper metagaming skill to navigate. Nyx is great vs Elves and Lands, for example, which are two matchups that something like Scapewish struggles with...whereas Scape mows down Czech Pile and is favored vs Sneak/Show but has issues with fast combo. That's just two of the options -- when you consider all of Nicfitdom, it becomes very complex to know what deck you're supposed to play.
It also means you have to be deep in Nic Fit. You need to know what versions exist and how to play all of them. Knowing how to play even one version of Nic Fit can take quite a while to figure out, although luckily most of them overlap in skillsets. A lot of people, the majority, I think, who are serious competitive players that try this deck eventually get frustrated and fed up, and put the deck down after a brief honeymoon period. They don't have the requisite patience to sit and jam and learn. It takes months for most, years for some -- whereas people can go and learn something easier / more linearly powerful like Delver or Lands or whatever instead. Nic Fit takes a certain level of finesse that can't ultimately be taught.
These issues compound at their confluence. It's not enjoyable to grind and learn a deck that you don't like or feel like you can win with -- and while there is likely a Nic Fit for almost everyone, it can take a while to work through the huge variation in our decklists to find one that you like.
I mean, I obviously think that it's worth it, but I'm also the wise old sage sitting atop the mountain, not Sisyphus rolling the boulder, so my bias has to be taken into consideration. We are actually fairly well positioned at the moment in general, which makes it a decent time to learn, at least.
When starting to learn NicFit i would most defenitly advice to start with a fair NicFit list. This because i believe that most comboesque versions like Scapeshift some what distract you from playing a decend Veteran Explorer / Cabal Therapy / Pernicious Deed attrition game. Mastering this means Mastering the core of NicFit. Splashing whatever combo on top of it means you know how the combo supplements the NicFit game. Not doing so might put you to much on focus on the combo. The most important benefit from playing NicFit is the ability to pull negative boardstate back into your advantage.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Thanks all for the excellent advice. As you've each identified, there is no one list to rule them all, just local meta considerations, or personal preference.
As a BGx player, Nic Fit suits my style of play, allowing a tool box of creatures that can be used as silver bullets. Having absorbed the comments on this forum, I've gone the value root with a Sultai build, using two Pods and come into play or leave battlefield triggers to out value the opposition. Whilst this may not be the optimal build for competitive play, it is fun. My experience so far has been that I either win comfortably, or die horribly. I think I need help making a deck less polarised. (I'd rather lose a good, close match, than a one sided drubbing either way!! I play for fun first, winning second.)
I'll list my deck below, but be gentle, as I said, I'm a total noob with Legacy and my local meta isn't very competitive. Happy to consider suggestions ... and upgrades (dual lands!!!).
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pools
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
I've considered Diabolic Intent and Toxic Deluge MB, but not sure what to cut. Otherwise, open to suggestions. Cheers.
Hi !Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed4570
I think your curve is a bit to high. 4 x 4 drop and 5 x 5+ drop... Would cut Thrun, Redcap and Tyrant first in your build. Would had Meren (quite an EtB effect and buy back at least your 3 drop on pod).
Also a few pages ago, a lot of people were saying that baleful stri was not that great in Nic Fit. You could try to cut 1 or 2 of them.
I know that Leovold is becoming more and more expensive but get at least 1 !!! ;)
So for me
-Thrun
-Redcap
-Tyrant
-1/2 Strix
+Leo
+Meren
Then 3 slots where you can put either discard/remove all that manage early game for exemple.
@Jed4570
When I build a classic Nic Fit list I build it like that:
Creature:
4 GSZ
1 Arbor to increase the amount of one drop to 10
6 one drop
2 two drop
2 three drop
2 four drop
2 five drop
1 six drop
2 PW
4 Therapy
10 removals including discard spells
3 flavour
21 lands
I start with this, then I adjust the curve depends on the metagame.
Lots of small blue creature more Abrupt decay. Lots of reanimator, S&S more Path to exile/discard. Lots of blades more Pernicious deed. Lots of elves & True name nemesis & Young pyro more toxic deluge.
Then you move your creature & PW for example to be more aggressive, cheap plainswalker 4CC max 5CC you choose PW that produce creaure (Vital Force, Lord of Innistrad).
Remove 6CC + 1CC creature, you now have 7CC creature points to divide for example for a 3CC + a 4CC drop.
Wants more controlish version, play more six drops, more removals and ramp.
I go for the mathematical way.
Then is just test test test.
When I stopped playing years ago, Survival of the Fittest was legal. I restarted in Khans and I lost around 20/30 matchs before I won the first one with the same cards. Now I know the metagame and how to play against it. I know when to sandbag a therapy or take more damage to remove a bigger board with deeds when your opponent over extend.
Nic Fit is a mind play deck. You can win lots of games if you have experience with the deck.
Playing against Nic Fit is pain in the ass. Your opponent has to precisely evaluate your threats. For Delver most of the time you know you have to deal with Delver, YP, TNN, Gunrmag, some Shamans. Against Nic Fit, they remove you Rhino, you play Sigarda, tey remove sigarda, you play Vital Force. Most of people do not like playing against Nic Fit because you play only Veteran explorer and Therapy the rest is commander cards. Then they die to Grave titan, sun titan, Consecrated sphinx, Sigarda, rhino and other fringe cards. That is why I play it, to see their face when you play a Dinosaur or Sandwurm convergence :)
And I was just wishing going under the radarQuote:
Originally Posted by Plm
I guess that's not gonna work this time. Thanks Plm ^__^;...
For those interested, the list is coming on mtgtop8, but I guess I can spoil it here:
It's inspired from a list I am sure having seen on the thread here, in the range of pages 13x. But I can't spot it anymore for some reasons...Quote:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Cabal Therapy
1 go for the throat
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
side:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Choke
1 Tsunami
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic edict
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pithing needle
There's also an earlier variant on Reddit. Credits to its original author.
I can try a report some time later. I am not sure about the ratio of Helm winning games, but if I have to ballpark it, it's above 50%. (I know I am not taking risks here :p)
Quickly I went 5-1-1 in the Swiss, won the 1/4 to Burn, and lost to Turbo Depth in the semi.
Congrats on the result!
Very nice! Glad it ran well for you. I experimented with a Helm list for a few online leagues. Was quite nice hitting storm and dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by vilnico
How did you like the Ob Nixilis? I enjoyed Nissa, Vital Force in my versions since it could buy back both Deed and Helm. Turning a land into a creature was also helpful in order to Intent for Helm. Nissa also provides for a faster clock in case you have pivoted that way in a game with Trackers. I could see Ob Nix killing some creatures that otherwise would be problematic though.
Love some of your sideboard choices.
Ah was it your list? It's your name coming up on Reddit?Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Why can't I find the list anymore on this thread? :frown:
I'll answer later on Nixilis vs Nissa, and sideboard. I guess all with the report.
@Nyx Fit: i'm really struggling to find the final 2-3 slots of my build: Ground Seal is very good only if you know your meta, otherwise it slows down the deck.
I've found a 4c nyx player on MTGO who was playing brainstorm in a deck like this, i really would like to know how his tests are going ^^
// 11 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Academy Rector
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
// 14 Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sandwurm Convergence
1 Overwhelming Splendor
4 Mirri's Guile
3 Ground Seal
// 21 Land
// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
I remember the list you're talking about, but forget who made it. It seemed good. I like most things your list is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by vilnico
How well did Diabolic Intent work for you with just 10 creatures to sacrifice?
@ nico : Sorry about the outing but your deck was the only one I played against that was exciting, the games were good and lot of fun (even if deed raped me).
That ob nixilis plus 2 library was a fast kill that I never saw before:tongue:
Congrats on top4ing, did you escape the unfair decks or does the 8 maindeck discard disrupt them enough?
I'm not sure Tracker is the card you want here. Trackers value accrues slowly and a 9 creature list is really weak to removal. Something with a faster return is likely better. That's why I like the 2 Eternal Witness in this list. If you're willing to go all in on the combo, maybe some other strong vs removal cards like Sakura Tribe Elder.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Actually, that might be an interesting thought experiment, combining Scapeshift+Helm combo in one deck with a Nic Fit mana ramp engine to play either one.
Any thoughts? Feedback? Who all is playing BUG lists these days?Quote:
Originally Posted by caseyc
How is the list working for you? You said you have been testing it. It seems a bit unfocused, probably that's why you don't get feedback, also stuff just drowns here sometimes. And if a list doesn't have a clear focus then it's just a BUG good stuff list, that can be interesting too, anything that works is interesting, but will get less comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by caseyc
4 Ponders seems a lot but they are of course good cards, it's just that they can slow down a mana intensive deck (or that's been a recent hypothesis in this thread) . With all that blue why are there no FoW's, at least in the board? Carnage Tyrant looks like overkill to me, you already have a few good finishers with synergy, settle for that; I'd try Tireless Tracker instead, comes down earlier and must be dealt with while providing card advantage and being relevant in all matchups. You could consider Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Library in the list too, maybe over two Ponders, they work very well together and can be very powerful in certain matchups, Courser adds lifegain to the deck and synergizes with your finishing package. It also seems like a mistake to only play a single Deed in the maindeck, it's a very powerful card and usually works very well in the deck and you have a couple of planeswalkers that really benefit from it.
Force of Will, even in blue decks is a mistake in Nic Fit. It waters down your threat consistency too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
In the maindeck it can be hard to fit, I get the same feeling usually. In the sideboard however I think it can be quite valuable, do you think it's bad there too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Yes. I think there's better options. The problem with FoW isn't just that it waters down your creature count, but that it also forces you into a bunch of blue cards. As a result your GSZ's take a double hit. I think a handful of cheap counterspells like Flusterstorm works better if you're going to play counters, but that discard like Therapy and Brutality is far more effective overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Thanks to Matsu and Ulysse95 for the guidance/suggestions.
I've dropped 1 Strix, Thrun and Redcap, adding 1 Leovold, Meren AND ... still have one space ...
I'd love to keep Carnage Tyrant, but appreciate he's (or she's) maybe a win more card ... do I drop him and add Diabolic Intent & Toxic Deluge MB?
Keep the comments coming ... whilst there is no 'one deck' (BUG, Junk, Jund variations all with different focus) the core as described by Ulysse95 makes perfect sense for a core to build around.
Also, I enjoyed the discussion re counters v hand disruption ... I think I'd always err on proactive threat extraction rather than a counterspell, seems cleaner and more targeted.
Intent is only really good if you have single cards that literally end the game immediately when case, and are low in mana cost. I wouldn't run it outside of a combo style build, and even then it's not the most reliable option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed4570
Are you specifically trying to build around Pod? Birthing Pod is pretty awfully positioned right now because, like Stoneforge, it has real issues dealing with Kolaghan's Command decks which are otherwise pretty good matchups.
I get the point about Diabolic Intent, although, if I make tweaks (see below) I would have options for tutor worthy answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
That was the thought to use POD for silver bullets ... but as you say, with Kolaghan's Command being used more, POD is susceptible. Without it, I'd certainly have more slots for Diabolic Intent bullets. Another PW might be an idea ... Nissa is great, is two too many? Or Garruck Relentless?
You already have Zenith for silver bullets. If you want a tutorable planeswalker, Nissa Vastwood Seer is pretty great against a lot of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed4570
I don't think more than one Nissa VF is a good idea just because she is both expensive in mana and not tutorable. I'd run 0-1 Nissa VF, 1 Nissa VS, 0-1 Garruk Relentless, and 1-2 Jace the Mind Sculptor for planeswalkers. Possible a 6cmc Vraska in the sideboard for grindy games if you want to spend the slot.
Played Wurmmachine last night to a 0-1-3 finnish. I faced 3 controldecks (4c Leo, grixis kess and UW blade) and rhinofit and had serious problems closing the games. If i had more time i think i would have gone 3-1. I dont think i played slow. Problem was stuff like multiple swords on wurms prolonging the inevitable.
Anyone else having this issue?
I think I'm gonna try Misfortunes and starfield in main to add more ways to overload opponent with multiple enchantments. Any comments or suggestions?
If i were to play an agressive bugfit list with 15+ creatures i would play the playset of chart a course over ponder. I think brainstorm is fine as it makes your starting 7 best of 10 which kan be very beneficial in a clunky deck. Chart kan give you the punch you need to overload opponent with threats. Even the 'no attack mode' is fine in the lage game when you draw unwanted fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
What was your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by JackaBo
Sometimes, finish is indeed the problem. But between Dovescape, lingering souls and wurmcoil, it should be ok, no? What was the issue apart from removals on your wurms?
I really liked misfortunes, just need a particular build to have enought good targets.
Starfield can be good again since it seems that the meta became a bit slowler, no?
I've added a Sigarda and she's been great, absolutely =)