It's in the top 8 thread from an event on 8/22. Sorry I don't know how to put links to different pages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
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It's in the top 8 thread from an event on 8/22. Sorry I don't know how to put links to different pages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
Quote:
Geoff's Board:
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Snare
2 Preacher
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Path to Exile
3 Negate
When I tested a build with Tops, I have 3 in the maindeck and 4 Counterbalances in the sideboard. I think for the maindeck, I might throw in the 4th copy of Top. Just such a savage card. But lately, I've been playing Negate, it's really the way to go if you want to pack combo hate in the sideboard. It's a more consistent card to have compared to that of Counterbalance because it always counters something. With Counterbalance at times, your opponent probably boarded in ways to fight Counterbalance like how ANT at times boards in 4 REBs and 1-3 Krosan Grips. For example, against TES, on your 2nd Turn, if you attempt to drop a Counterbalance and it gets REB'd, you're in a bit of a pickle on your opponent gets his untap step. Whereas of you had Negate and your opponent attempts to combo off on his main phase, you probably slow your opponent down if he spends that one Red mana just to cast his REB to counter your negate. Keep in mind, this is his Turn 3, and he just wasted a mana on a 2c spell. Might not seem a lot, but on Turn 3, it's still pretty hard for a combo player to function well in that position.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimoman
How do you guys deal with the 1-2 knock out which is shusher into price in the zoo/goyf sly MU?
Is pulse your only plan of attack in this MU?
I don't run wish or pulse and I'm doing fine vs. zoo but shusher/price usually sings gg.
U/W Manabase and StP/BEB, with my version.
Run enough basics so that you're not sitting there with 10 pts of damage staring at you when they go off?
Seriously, if I'm playing Zoo or Goyf Sligh or anything else that looks likely to be packing PoP I'm very careful how I deploy land as I'm getting setup. It's really not that hard to land an island and a couple of plains if that's what you think you need to do early on to avoid problems. I'll also keep a wasteland on the board if I'm sitting there with 2 or 3 duals just to make sure I can limit the damage if they go off all of a sudden.
Landstill should be able to run off of 5 mana without missing a beat. You can make three of those basics when you have to and suddenly you're not looking at an insta-loss when an uncounterable PoP comes through, even if they also have Fireblast backing it up and can make that good too.
I run 2 islands 2 plains and a swamp.
I am very away fetching for basics is the right play because I'm not fucking retarded.
But trying to survive and stabilize at as high as possible usually ends with 3 or 4 non-basics in play in the first 6-8 turn.
Idk if I really like CoP as a sb card because I usually like to play the offense as fast as possible to try to keep them off of shusher/PoP.
My board now is:
2BeB
3Negate
2PTE
2S.S
1Crypt
2E.P
3 flex spot
I want to test preacher or moat as a 2 of in the board vs. mefolk I'm leaning towards preacher due to the increase in Ug merfolk at resent torns.
I just felt like posting this cause I had no else to talk to. I just played two matches on MWS. Yeah, I know, MWS... but hear me out. My first matchup was against Burn w/ MD Marauders and Lavamancers, SB Shusher. My second matchup was against RGb Aggro Loam. I 2-0'd Burn, 2-1'd Aggro Loam. 2 horrible matchups, won both of them. Made me feel like a pimp.
I must admit, both matchups were won with CounterTop.
Against Burn game 1, I landed Counterbalance but no Top, only countered 2 spells with it via Brainstorm and 1 blind reveal, but he was mana flooded and I raced him with Factory + Elspeth beats. Standstills are so amazing vs Burn, it kept chaining me into lands, Counterspells, and FoW's. Game 2, I early BEB'd his Shusher and proceeded to CounterTop lock him for an easy win.
Against Aggro Loam game 1, he didn't get his Loam engine online and I didn't get CounterTop online. He drops Chalice@1 and proceeds to drop a Goyf a turn for 2 turns. I O Ring the Chalice, StP a Goyf, I drop Top, he E Witness's Chalice and redrops it. I attempt to stabalize, finally do with Factory + Elspeth (making 1 token a turn). Eventually I drop a Standstill, he breaks it, I WoG, proceed to win. Game 2 was a horrible beating. I mulligan to 5, I'm stuck on a low land count, he Chalices@1, and beats me out quickly with Loam + Seismic Assault. Game 3, I drop a turn 1 Top to his turn 1 Chalice. I'm a little land light and he Wastes my Tundra, but Top does the dirty and digs me up some lands, and I O Ring the Chalice. StP meets his Goyf, and he doesn't draw another creature for awhile, while he does his Loam engine. I assemble CounterTop, keep a 2cc spell on top at all times, drop Elspeth, and slowly lock him out of the game and win via Elspeth's dirtyness.
Anyway, long story short, I decided to post that cause it made me feel awesome to go 2-0 against two of the worst matchups possible. I could see that happening in a tournament and then going on to dominate the rest of my matchups off of pure confidence.
Anyway, here's my list:
U/W KaezurStill (Counterbalance Landstill)
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
The only mainstays of my SB are the BEB's, Mages, and O Rings. Other than that, the WoG and Relics can be whatever, I haven't done enough testing to figure that out.
Board plan for Burn was:
-3 WoG
-2 DoJ
-2 O Ring
-1 StP
+4 BEB
+4 Mage
Board plan for Aggro Loam was:
-2 DoJ
+2 O Ring
Anyway, most of my list is standardized minus the Counterbalances, which are the only real eyesore/controversy, which I tried to discuss way back when before my internet got shut off. Before tackling that issue, there are a few things I'd like to address.
The U/W Manabase is awesome. I've toyed around with splashes many times in the past, but staying strictly U/W solves so many issues with this deck. All sorts of bad matchups (like Aggro Loam) are improved by it, and I feel comfortable with only 23 lands with it (that, and the 4 Brainstorm/4 Top). I feel like all the spells I need are neatly contained in U/W, and while I loved Vindicate in UWb for a while, I feel like O Rings easily replace them given the smoother manabase and ease of casting. I know that UWb CunningStill gets big weapons with Black, but I feel that Top is the direct replacement for Cunning Wish. Which leads me to my next point.
I don't see why every list isn't running 4 Tops. Top is, hands down, the best card in the deck. There is only 1 card I want to see in every opening hand and have in play ASAP every single game. That is Top. Top wins games; the deck's already consistent shell makes Top's increased consistency turn the deck into a repetitive machine. I see the exact same cards I want to see every single game when I want to see them, and that's why I win. Multiple Top's shuffle themselves away, so it's not like it's even dead in multiples. Seriously, every list needs 4.
It also doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever to go below 4 Brainstorm, but I'm not gonna argue that animal.
Now, onto Counterbalance. Everyone says, "you don't have the curve to use Counterbalance, therefore it sucks in Landstill." Wrong. 12 2cc and 12 1cc spells is more than enough for its application in the deck. It's not used here the same way it is in Threshold. Threshold depends on its lock in games where it needs to go control and survive the late game. In here, it's not a crutch (except against a few certain matchups, like Burn and Aggro Loam). All it does is synergize with the fact I'm already running 4 Brainstorm/4 Top and give me additional control. I'm not worried about what blind CB can do for me. Countering even 1 spell with it is card parity, countering 2 is +1 CA. That's what this deck is about is CA, and given that this is a lategame deck, I almost always assembles CT at some point. I do mean that literally. Not only does it generate CA, it adds another level of control to the deck that a deck like Landstill absolutely loves: why the hell would the deck not run it? Don't give me the curve crap; the point isn't blind CB to save lives. With the current spell config, it is very simple to get 1cc and 2cc spells on top via Top and Brainstorm. It improves problematic matchups drastically, improves already good matchups, and only slightly weakens a very few matchups. I don't think I can explain any better why its so good... besides saying to simply playtest it before bashing it. I garuntee you'll see the same results I've been seeing.
Anyways, /rant.
@Hanni:
How is your Merfolk matchup? A turn 1 Vial looks almost impossible to overcome with your list. Also, I imagine that comfortably laying down a Standstill in that matchup is difficult to do as they have 4 Mutavault + 4 Wasteland to your 4 Factory + 2 DoJ.
Otherwise I'm digging the CB/Top Landstill.
Little OT
WHY ?!
WHY ?!
Why no more [DTB], but just [DTW] ???
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Merfolk is one of the few matchups that is not greatly improved by Counterbalance. It can still hit some of their stuff, but for the most part, I'd rather be packing more removal spells.
The matchup itself isn't that bad. If they land Vial it can get bad, though O Ring helps there a bit. Otherwise, their Wastes and Mutavaults against my Factories and Decrees is fairly similar, with them having the slight edge. However, they are a fairly slow aggro deck and I pack plenty of countermagic and removal for them. As long as you play around Daze and Cursecatcher effectively, it's not so bad. Preboard, the matchup could be a little rough if they get a solid draw. Postboard, I'd side out Standstills and 2 Counterbalances for the 2 O Rings, 1 WoG, and 3 Meddling Mage (for now). If the matchup is very popular and I struggle with it, I'd just cut some amount of Relics (as long as Ichorid isn't also popular) and add some Path to Exile or maybe even the new WoG effect (I don't remember what it's called).
I haven't had enough testing against Merfolk yet, though, to be honest.
Still though, for everything else that Counterbalance does improve, I don't mind it being hit or miss with a few matchups. And honestly, in alot of the matchups that CT doesn't improve, the UW manabase tends to improve (like vs Dragon Stompy, for example).
Why do all of you want to play Preacher all of a sudden? What if the opponents just drops a lord of atlantis or some irrelivent cursescratcher that he can "give" you without a problem? I´m sure that he isnt that bad but he´s only good against ONE deck while beeing horrible against the rest of the meta.
I just don´t understand it...
DTW instead of DTB: Told ya, LS has to strech too much nowadays to cover all matchups..
I tried to play Walkerstill yesterday and it was quite funny but that pile can NEVER be better than uwb ls since it just lacks removal for the bigger guys.
I even lost one game(not match) against urb extended madness cause he had 3 guys with power 3+ and 3 different cc :S
Preacher is good against Aggro Loam as well... but other than those two decks, I really have no idea what else Preacher can be good against.Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
For the Mirror or against Dreadstill perhaps
Preacher can come in vs. goyf.dec also.
How many time has countertop ever agg'd you out with more than 2 creatures?
Game 2/3 nassif.dec usually sides out stp and brassman doesn't side in removal + they side out sower(maybe, I have kept it in before to flip for four)
Unless they side in firespout fearing a wrongly played decree.
In the mirror he´s no more than a 1/1 unless you´re playing against a retard.
Againts Dreadstill he´s also pretty bad since he will never steal a nought and most likely not eve a factory...And @jimirynk: Are you serious? You really want to board a 1/1 for 3 that dies to mostly every spell the deck plays and leaves you completly open for anything on turn 3(if played later, there should be no creatures anymore or you should already be dead).
Actually, I won against Loam yesterday at a small tourney with +3 relic +3 vendilion Clique<- they seem to be nutz if they come from the SB.
I believe they are the anti-control SB card I was looking for, since I´ve never liked them MD.
I'm still not sold on CB, I may need to make room for a 3rd top by taking out FoF but I'd hate to lower my blue count to 17. I could take out the lone Vindicate, but it just has so many uses.
On another note...
Mindbreak Trap
2UU
Instant - Trap
If an opponent casts 3 or more spells this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Mindbreak Trap's mana cost.
Exile any number of target spells.
Another answer for storm? They can still get around it but this could win a few matches against them, plus it can get rid of Volcanic Fallout if needed.
Mindbreak Trap is good for a wish target against ANT/TES, but in all honesty and reminding myself not to hype up new "powerful" cards, you have to understand that Landstill's only reason why its matches against ANT/TES aren't super favorable is because of Chants. Countertop trumps ANT/TES since chant does nothing against the engine. If Chant resolves against us, FOW, Mindbreak Trap becomes useless.
So in asking yourself again whether Mindbreak Trap improves the ANT matches? I'd say yes if they don't run Chants or if you can counter multiple Chant/Silences, and no if they run Chant since it is useless and takes a slot.
After much thinking, Countertop in Landstill might be feasibly viable. It's a slower strategy and the lack of removal to fit the engine in is a drawback. The main reason why Countertop is bad in Landstill is the lack of 2cc spells to flip. You can potentially play 3 CB and 4 Spell Snare with 4 FOW and 3 Top. That is as far as I would go to squeeze it in. What would you cut? Countertop Landstill would be more focused on 3cc/1cc spells, and using Snares and EE to stop the 2cc spells from resolving. That would be my direction to Countertop Landstill
3-4 Counterbalance
3 Top
4 Spell Snare (this is absolutely needed to make up for the lack of 2cc).
I've sorta been working in the same direction with SB CB. It's the only reliable way I've found to beat up on the chant-heavy storm lists. Almost makes it a matchup I want to see, at least post board.
4 STP
3 EE
2 WOG
1 Humility (love this removal package)
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 FOW (love this counter package too)
3 Brainstorm
3 SDT (upped to 3 for CB, would rather have #3 be a jace or FoF or something but it's necessary)
3 Standstill
2 DoJ
2 Elsbitch
2 Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
3 island
2 plains
2 waste
3 factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
SB:
3 CB
3 E. Plague
2 Relic
2 P2E
1 Negate (<= still wanted the hard counter off wish)
1 E. Tutor
1 FoF
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
The way I've been boarding gives me the 3 tops, 3 CB, 10 counterspell package with the 1/2 CMC looking like
1cc: 12
2cc: 10
Which is generally good enough alongside the brainstorms and super-heavy counter suite to handle combo. The only problem I have with the list is a lack of a heavy duty draw engine MB (jace or FoF) but that really hasn't seemed to affect actual matchup percentages at all against what I've tested against, mostly thresh, zoo, thrash, and combo. Given the lack, wish=>FoF becomes a necessary possibility and sees some play.
CB with the curve is also nice against zoo, makes the burn reach a lot less scary even without pulse.
@MB Crucible: Have you guys tried it recently? I've waste-locked thrash and zoo out of so many games just randomly pulling it and recurring ruins against thrash. I'm 100% happy thus far.
[Snip. Full warning for flaming. - Bardo]Quote:
Originally Posted by NQN
Game 2/3 nassif.dec usually sides out stp and brassman doesn't side in removal + they side out sower(maybe, I have kept it in before to flip for four)
Unless they side in firespout fearing a wrongly played decree.
Counter top won't agg out on you.
They won't play a goyf untill they answer it I.E needle or E.E.
2 goyfs dont help..
Catch my drift?
Feasbily vialble... I don't get why it's not standardized yet. I've had my deck designed for 4 months and just finally got the internet and still no one uses Counterbalance in Landstill.Quote:
After much thinking, Countertop in Landstill might be feasibly viable. It's a slower strategy and the lack of removal to fit the engine in is a drawback. The main reason why Countertop is bad in Landstill is the lack of 2cc spells to flip. You can potentially play 3 CB and 4 Spell Snare with 4 FOW and 3 Top. That is as far as I would go to squeeze it in. What would you cut? Countertop Landstill would be more focused on 3cc/1cc spells, and using Snares and EE to stop the 2cc spells from resolving. That would be my direction to Countertop Landstill
12 2cc spells is a lack thereof? You don't run CB to blind flip people. You run a ton of other powerhouse stuff that you don't need that. Brainstorm becomes a Counterspell, and Top can lock out 2cc spells like Loam.
I see what the meta looks like, but you don't run Spell Snare alongside CB. You run either or; do you want the tempo of SN, or the power of CB? Choose one, not both.
I still feel like O Ring (or Vindicate if you run Black) is > EE. Just my opinion.
@ Rsaunder
You and me are pretty cool, we've had some long dicsussions before about decks. Let us be honest with eachother: your decklist is too spread out. You need to focus on something. So many non-4 of's. Lots of 2's and 3's, quite a bit of 1's. I've been an avid NON-Cunning Wish correspondant for a long time, and many will hate on me with this. Top is the direct replacement for card quality, and completely dominates it in all aspects, IMO. Top needs to be a 4-of in every Landstill list. After the tighten, after looking at good and bad matchups, after looking at possibilities... Counterbalance should be an obvious shoe-in.
I'm probably short-sighted and single-track-minded, but I've been raping everyone continuously with my list. I just wish at least a handful of people would try it and let me know the results.
Oh, and I just wanna toss the e-peen around real quick. Counterbalance was never dismissed from ITF, while ITF was considered a good deck (and I feel that it is). Has anyone ever seen their Counterbalance curve? It's similar or worse to 12/12 1cc/2cc. Wtf? I call shenanigans.
I've considered vindicate over C. Wish as a catch all, but I've just been saved too many times by wish=>pulse or wish =>x to cut it at this point. I used to think of it as a crutch in certain matchups but with more and more thought on the subject I became more and more sure that it was a correct call that won games that I should not have won otherwise. It's not so much a crutch as a built-in silver bullet and utility slot that can win games or matches by it's self. I'm not opposed to trying out builds without it, but wish has proven it's self time and time again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
As for top, I agree it's excellent. I disagree though, that it's a 4-of. It's terrible in multiples game one (and arguably dead games 2/3 when CB is sided in) and I was reluctant to include copy#3 even, because 2 worked so well when counterbalance wasn't included. At this point though, I also disagree that my list is too spread out. It follows the same theory as Nassif's SB from the GP (highlander with redundant effects); 10 removal spells (counting humility), 10 counterspells, 9 draw/card quality, 25 mana, 4 kill conditions, and 2 catch-all answers. I appreciate how clean your list is, but I think the balance in my list at the moment is right. All of the effects are either redundant or complementary and all of the 1-ofs are tutorable through one method or another.
I hope none of this makes me less cool in your book, I'm kinda under the influence and probably shouldn't be posting in the DTB forum atm :eek:
@ Rsaunder
Catch all is catch all. What all does it do for you? Pulse of the Fields is negated by CounterTop, which answers all that. The best reponse I see is CWish into Extirpate, since I clearly don't have that answer. Dredge is a bad mathcup for me MD. Is that common?
I completely agree with you on redunancy. It doesn't matter what you do. X of certain spell equals equivilants. It's the overall numbers that really count. However, I'm strongly opinionated that 4 Top is the way to go. After lots of playtesting and consideration, that's how I feel. In multiples, it shuffles itself away. I'll repeat what I said earlier: Top is, hands down, the best card in the deck. There is only 1 card I want to see in every opening hand and have in play ASAP every single game. That is Top. Top wins games; the deck's already consistent shell makes Top's increased consistency turn the deck into a repetitive machine. I see the exact same cards I want to see every single game when I want to see them, and that's why I win.
There's no less coolnesss, don't feel that way. I haven't been able to post in months. Just consider what I've said and don't dismiss it right away, particularly about Top and either MD or SB Counterbalance. I promise I would never steer anyone wrong. Not like I'm holding out secret tech; I don't get to play in big events. Top is the best card in the deck, hands down. No reason to not run Counterbalance if that's the case, which actually does improve sooooooo many matchups.
Goodstuff land still guys.
Also
Hypothesis:
Counterbalance> Mindbreak Trap.
FYP. I think CB's the way that the deck HAS to go to compete now, since to combat Mindbreak combo's going to be packing even more chant effects to combat the aggro decks packing mindbreak. It's really unsafe for combo to go off against anything post-board now without a duress or chant effect first.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
@Hanni: Of course, I consider every piece of advice I receive. I think though, where our builds differ is that you have CB main. Wish is a great game 1 card that fixes problem matchups while allowing greater utility in favorable ones. If I ran CB MB I'd consider going wish-less, but as it is right now I'm not ready to make that step.
The way I see it, Top does the same thing. Both CW and Top create card quality. Those are the purposes of them. CW gives versatility with the wishboard, Top does it with the MD. Obviously, CW is more pinpoint, but Top's effect is everlasting. CW can grab a few things not found in the MD: Extirpate being the biggest effect. Other than that, every answer is found in the MD. I find Top to be the better card, by far, and I think that both Top and CW compete for the same spot. Since I find Top to be lightyears better, I run 4 Top 0 CW. Just the way I feel, I guess. CB MD has nothing to do with it, though I think CB MD is the way to go due to the 4 Top's that I do run.Quote:
@Hanni: Of course, I consider every piece of advice I receive. I think though, where our builds differ is that you have CB main. Wish is a great game 1 card that fixes problem matchups while allowing greater utility in favorable ones. If I ran CB MB I'd consider going wish-less, but as it is right now I'm not ready to make that step.
I tested CB main/sb and I was never really satisfied. Since we really lack pressure without Elspeth it´s not that hard for the opponent to resolve some stuff if we don´t have cc2-3 permanently on top. And it makes you even more vulnerable to grip postboard where I tend to take humilitys out.
@NQN:
I think you're missing the boat. As others have said, Counterbalance is not meant to be a hard-lock in Landstill like it is in "Thresh". Even if it's a one-sided Chalice of the Void for 1, it still improves many of your poor matchups. Landstill has the tools to answer whatever they're playing at CMC 2/3 even if you can't 'balance it.
How is Landstill with CounterTop not just going to turn into a slower and less nimble version of Dreadstill? You're using anywhere from 6 to 8 new permanents in the deck and something has to come out. That something is likely to be the majority of the removal that Landstill features. In turn that's going to make Landstill into a deck that doesn't do anything particularly impactful early on (except drop SDT or Counterbalance) and that also has many fewer ways to react to the opponent after the fact.
I'm looking at the discussion, and while I respect the people making the arguments and the arguments they are making, what it's boiling down to for me is the danger of cool things. In this case the addition of SDT as a stand-alone is now pushing people to morph the deck by adding Counterbalance also. I don't think the deck is getting better in the process, in fact I think it is losing some of the qualities that make it so good right now.
Here's the problem in a nutshell:
What Landstill does so well is to just drop land and prevent/react to the opponent's plays until it has reached critical mass on turn 4 to 7. At that point it grabs the opponent's plan, does one more flip to put it out of commission and then casts a 4cc spell and starts to win.
Counterbalance is going to come in for something else that makes the plan above work. It's going to lower removal to the point that things can begin to reliably slip through in the critical early midgame, and threats that were cast in the very early game will remain on the board when they should not.
Basically, the deck is going to look like a slower version of Dreadstill with no insta-win to cover up the fact that an opponent got a couple of significant assets landed early and they're sticking around.
This is just my opinion, but I think if the addition of SDT inevitably results in the inclusion of Counterbalance due to synergy then SDT is a bad idea. It may help the deck but CounterTop won't in the long run.
If you just want to put Counterbalance in the sideboard for the matches where it is clearly better then I think you need to ask yourself if the number of matches you have against those decks warrants taking up a fifth or more of the sideboard. Landstill has very good uses for the sideboard, more so than most other decks.
Chalice of the Void is also an option I would guess. Granted it can slow us down, it would still be better for us against the matches we'd board it in against. Storm and burn; and possibly Zoo but probably not since we'd need Swords. It works almost the same as Counterbalance but sacrifices versatility for a sure thing. Only problem is its not amazing against the mirror and some other matches.
I don't really like adding the countertop engine since it seems to detract from the redundancy that makes landstill good :)
@ FoolofaTook
I posted my list a page or so back, if you want to look at that as a reference. What is the deck dropping significant amounts of to add Counterbalance? I run 9 removal spells in total, with 3 additional removal spells in my sideboard. Looking at most Landstill lists, that's very similar to what everyone else is running, so I fail to see your point. Essentially, what I'm dropping for Counterbalances are what most seem to be running as Spell Snares. There is no major loss of early game via retooling the deck to fit it; you lose a minor amount of early game without Spell Snare and replace it with a much more powerful effect in Counterbalance, which is good not only in the early game, but throughout the games entirety. Rather than act as a tempo tool, it acts as a card advantage engine.
I also don't understand how it slows the deck down. I clearly see the speed difference between Spell Snare and Counterbalance, sure, but it's not so major of a difference that the deck now becomes slow. It's a one-time 2 mana investment; after that, you're using Top (or Brainstorm) like you normally would. With 9 removal effects and FoW, anything that lands before CounterTop is in effect is answerable. I fail to see how a 4 card change to the maindeck makes such a drastic change for the rest of the Landstill shell, as far as redundancy and consistency goes. If anything, Top itself as a 4-of greatly improves that. Even Counterbalance adds to the redundancy by being a reusable Counterspell, which the last time I checked, is an important effect to the Landstill shell.
The deck doesn't need Dreadnought to cover it's ass for an insta-win. The deck has 9 removal spells. The point of Dreadstill is that removal is replaced with an I-win combo. I haven't replaced any removal. Once I clear the board, I either drop CounterTop or Elspeth and win the game.
What needs to be looked at moreso than these arguments are what actual matchups improve and which ones don't. Two of our worst matchups, Burn and Aggro Loam, are both won off the back of Counterbalance. It improves the Thresh/CounterTop match some, it improves the Zoo matchup some, it basically improves every matchup to some degree. The few matchups where it is not fantastic would be decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Dragon Stompy, where it's still mildly useful... and funny enough, Spell Snare runs into the same issues against those matchups.
For reference, I'll repost my list. Use this to highlight what I'm sorely lacking from every other Landstill list by adding Counterbalance.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
Also, rather than discussing why it would or would not work, and for what reasons, it's also helpful to try something before knocking it. Sometimes, ideas in theory sound bad but end up being good and vice versa, and what something looks like on paper also does not dictate the actual strength of a deck. I've been playing this exact version for some time now and I very rarely lose with it, no bullshit. I'm not asking everyone to conform to it, I just hope that some of the community at least respects the fact that Counterbalance Landstill is in fact a great version of the deck.
Maybe you answered it before... but why don't you play any Humilities? I really loved them against nearly every deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I'll start out by saying that your list *does* look solid, Hanni, just that I think you're building a different deck which shares some of the things that make landstill good.
Landstill, in my opinion, is about drawing alot of cards and answering your opponent's threats with those cards. Once you reach a certain point in the game, you're so far ahead of your opponent through x-for-1 plays and carddraw that he has no hopes of ever getting back into the game, simply because you've drawn so many all-purpose answers to whatever he might be up to (vindicate, EE, plow, counterspell) that he won't even be able to play.
What this list seems to be lacking, in my opinion, is first and foremost the 'big' carddraw which allows you to comfortably cruise into the endgame and just reload your hand and win from there, I'm talking about fact or fiction and jace mostly. The deck's redundancy allows you to dig 5 with a FoF or keep filling your hand with a jace and know you're getting any answers you'd ever need to keep your opponent out of the game.
This brings me to the second point: the answers. While CB/Top could be viewed as an answer by itself, once you get into the lategame, even when resolving multiple standstills, you're going to draw into shit you can't use (like extra tops/balances) instead of stuff you could, such as engineered explosives, disks etc.
It *does* look like a strong deck, simply because the 'drop standstill, cycle decree/play factories and stall til the cows come home' strategy is a good one and you're still playing the bombs that everybody knows and loves, but I personally gotta say I prefer just playing the answers instead of asking cb/top to handle the situation.
I stopped running Humility a long time ago, before I even started using Counterbalance. It just wasn't doing it for me. Unlike WoG and other similar spells, Humility isn't an answer on its own. Even if you drop one against Goblins or Merfolk, they can still smack you in the face with several 1/1's. At the time I was still using it, I lost several matchups against aggro with Humility out cause I couldn't find an answer to the 1/1's. Of course, this was before Elspeth. I realize the power level of the card, it is in fact very powerful... I just didn't like the fact that it isn't a stand-alone answer like WoG and requires other spells to actually save your ass. Again, this was way back when, it is possible with my new configuration that it could be sensational. If anything though, I'd make it a SB card, not a MD one. I'm very content with my current removal package in the MD.Quote:
Maybe you answered it before... but why don't you play any Humilities? I really loved them against nearly every deck.
@ Ectoplasm
I agree with you that card advantage is a huge deal for Landstill, one of the most important strategies the deck uses. You have more answers than they have threats, therefore you win. I'm still packing card advantage. I tested FoF a long time ago and just wasn't satisfied with it. I'm not gonna go into huge detail why, since it's not a bad card. Jace on the other hand, I think is very solid, and in a different version I'd definitely run him.
For me, the deck has sufficient draw. Also, keep in mind that CounterTop itself actually is card advantage. If you counter 3 spells with Counterbalance, you're essentially looking at +2 CA.
Top itself is gold, while not creating actual CA, enables the deck to draw the cards that do. Of all the possible draw engines the deck could possibly have, Top is my favorite one.
Also, drawing extra Tops/Balances isn't as bad as you think. First of all, if you do have CounterTop assembled, you float CB on the top of library for your 2cc spell. Worst case scenario is that it ends up in your hand and you pitch it to FoW. Secondly, multiple Top's shuffle themselves away, if for whatever reason you do get two in hand/play (via a Fetchland). Also, don't forget that many opponent's will destroy either Counterbalance, Top, or both, if they can. Multiples are sometimes valuable for that reason.
Oh, and simply playing extra cards like Disk/EE is great, but those don't answer everything. By this, I mean Instants/Sorceries that hurt us, whether they be Life from the Loam or something else, where Counterbalance can act as a catch-all.
@Hanni - That's not a bad list but it is severely lacking in ways to remove non-creature permanents. You have two answers for those and both of them are grippable, leaving you potentially at a loss.
That list IS like a slower version of Dreadstill. It's much slower in fact, because it does not have Spell Snare and Daze to manage fast threats early on. It doesn't have any real answer to land-based recursion either. Academy Ruins is going to make it miserable.
I see what you're trying to do there. The question is whether the matchups that Counterbalance helps against, which are definitely there, were bad enough to justify opening up the kind of weakness that removing EE, Cunning Wish/Vindicate, Nevinyrral's Disk, and the overall concept of 10+ removal now creates.
That's a heavy hybrid list and I'm not sure it gets the best of both worlds.
BTW, it occurs to me in looking at it again that one of the big problems is that you're relying on removal, yet at a lower density than normal and with only slow ways to dig it out. It's really got elements of Ugw Threshold in it as well but minus the Ponders that make that work somewhat well. The archetype problem you'll run into is the one where you are loaded for bear on creature removal in the early game but the permanent you need to deal with is not a creature. That's where the cracks in the concept will come in because your dig for your O-rings is going to be slow and painful and probably not successful often enough.
I will agree with you on the non-creature permanent thing. I tend to rely on my countermagic for those particular spells. Counterbalance can still help against unresolved non-creature permanents too, but yes, there are times when an early resolved Chalice@1 or something can be annoying. I tend to bring the 2 O Rings in from the SB quite often, usually for DoJ, but it does vary.
I wasn't saying that this deck isn't slower than Dreadstill, I know it is. However, you cannot directly compare the two. Dreadstill is more closely related to an aggro/control deck than a board control deck, and my deck is clearly not aggro/control. You need to compare how much slower it is to other Landstill decks, not Dreadstill. In that comparison, the speed difference is negligible.
I'm also not really worried about Academy Ruins. If they get recurring EE going, that's fine. There are ways to play around that... and if they are wasting their draw step each turn to try and stop Elspeth tokens, let 'em. Worst thing it does is neuter DoJ.
I run 9 removal spells. The average lists I've been seeing run 10. Not much difference there, at least to me. Plus I can just as easily toss more removal into my SB if needed. I mean honestly, we're only discussing 4 card spots here. Top's would be in there as a 4-of regardless, since it's the best spell in the deck. I'm not sacrificing large amounts of removal, large amounts of draw, etc to fit it. Like I've said, in comparison to many lists, Counterbalance in my deck is just a replacement for Spell Snare... not removal, and not draw.
Additionally, I prefer the stability of the U/W manabase. But just as easily, you could splash black and swap O Rings for Vindicates. I just choose stability and consistency over power.
@ CB:
I have tinkered with CB as a 4-of SB addition for a shell with 3 MD Tops (thanks for the inspiration, Marius).
CB was meant to improve the following MUs in particular: Combo, Burn, Control.
Those SB slots were formerly occupied by T. Scullers (improving the Control as well as the Combo MU).
After some testing, I have to say that CB not only is more versatile (also golden VS Burn), it is also better at fighting Combo (kinda obvious) and less vulnerable and still oftentimes more efficient VS Control than my still beloved Scullers, or any similar substitue, while boasting a more convenient casting cost.
That being said, I'm positive CB is not fit for MD material.
The main goal of my MD (read: G1s) is to have as many efficient answers to a maximum of relevant archetpyes, and also as few bad topdecks as possible. Unfortunately, about 50% of the decks that one faces in a diverse meta are not properly answered by Counterbalance: Against Aggro strategies (a big chunk of most metas) it can be a neat tool, but only AFTER you have aquired board control*, at which point it tends to be win more.
* Sadly, it's a bad topdeck before that.
How is that any different from, say, Spell Snare? Regardless, how is that relevant when Landstill tends to have a good aggro matchup anyway? Counterbalance is actually really good at improving the Goyf Sligh matchup, and while less attractive against Zoo, still pulls its weight. It definitely doesn't weaken the Zoo matchup, that's for sure. I can see it being arguable for both Goblins and Merfolk, which Counterbalance is mediocre against. The thing is that most decks do, in fact, fall into CB range. If they didn't, why would CounterTop be so successful in the other decks its played in?Quote:
Against Aggro strategies (a big chunk of most metas) it can be a neat tool, but only AFTER you have aquired board control*, at which point it tends to be win more.
* Sadly, it's a bad topdeck before that.
I think it's more a matter of people not being used to it. Landstill has been around forever, and most lists haven't adapted the shell enough to use it. Yet when a new deck emerges, like ITF, Counterbalance is not argued about whether it's effective or not in a board control strategy. Counterbalance is a reusable Counterspell, which at some point, is going to advance the decks gameplan. Obviously it doesn't change the board state when the opponent has a few guys on the ground: that's what WoG is for. Does that mean we should drop Counterspell too?
The best reason to not run it that I've heard is the metagame: if you have alot of decks in the metagame that are either only minorly improved or not improved at all by it, then obviously don't run it. However, it does improve matchups against the majority of decks out there, with several of them being very bad matchups for us in the first place (like Aggro Loam).
Maybe going in the SB is the right call for some. Either way, it should be within the decks 75. I have yet to see a great enough reason why I wouldn't run it MD, though.
As klaus mentioned Counterbalance comes in against the following:
Burn, Combo, Control
Apparently marius mentioned it comes in against zoo as well, which is going to take some testing to get used to.