Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I think you're conflating Deathblade (which is definitely a controlling midrange deck) with UW, Jeskai, and Esper Stoneblade, which are control decks.
Nope, I mean UWx Stoneblade. Deck taxonomy is not an exact science. I consider midrange a very wide category ranging from fairly aggressive to more grindy. Others (like Lord McDs) apparently don't even consider Shardless BUG to be an "actual midrange deck".
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...193#post956193
I don't want to debate the semantics, and I'm sure you don't either! Let's instead look specifically at the decks in question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
Running creatures doesn't make them not control decks; some Miracles lists run 7 or 8 creatures MD, as compared to ~10 in most Stoneblade lists.
The point is that the Lists which run 5, 3, or fewer creatures are still tier one decks! A ban which suplants Miracles with Stoneblade would kill those decks too.
I'm not saying creatures = not control. I'm talking about a decks potential to put up a clock and take the "beatdown" path when the mu/game-state requires it. A (non-mentor) Miracles deck has a much harder time playing this role - it runs fewer creatures, no equipment for them, and the creatures themselves are less efficiently costed for aggression (tending to be there for their CIP spell-like utility).
This is what people are talking about when they say "pure control deck". Just as linear aggro like Zoo struggles to play the controlling role, so does a "true" control deck struggle to play the aggressive role.
★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★
Assume please (for the sake of argument) we agree that (some) Miracles lists are significantly less aggressive than other control decks (like Blade, BUG, or D&T). Does this mean Miracles should have a sort of banned list immunity? Not at all! But it does at least make a case for the following:
- Miracles can be allowed a higher meta share than if there were other "true" control decks competing for that space.
- If Miracles does get a ban, it is preferable to ban in such a way that the deck's core and style are preserved.
Some people might disagree, but I think that comes down to banned list principles; which are subjective. It's not my intention to push this argument - only to clarify this position.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noctalor
Saying that the community isn't trying sounds rude to me.
Maverik fanatics tryed their best since Terminus happened, they are still doing it actually, but a 20 creature deck with no vials or chalice isn't going to work.
I've seen list packing insane amount of good cards against miracles, multiple library, plainswalkers, krosan grip, multiple gaddock paired with sylvan safekeeper, those lists still were unable to win even half the times, and had way worse mu all around.
The answer green based deck had to this metagame was maindeck a playset of chalice, hoping to deal with both combo and miracles locking them out of the game.
Also there arent many brand new decks possible in legacy, the base power level is so high that from a 16k card pool the only real playable ones are less than 500 most likely, gimmick decks such as sylvan plug can spawn, but there is no way that a non hate deck is going to rise without any new print/ban/unban involved.
And i guess its not unreasonable to have no non-blue midrange deck at all in the format, but i would rather have some, i find pretty boring to have just chalice decks as the non-blue side of the format
Having to play MD answers to even have a chance is in fact format warping, sure there are plenty of main deckable answers to top and cb, but the only answer to terminus is to not play creature based decks or you're going to have troubles
OK so the set of decks that we have right now, from blue to non blue decks.
What cards would you suggest to unban to help them against miracles but won't help miracles?
I'd love more of the "tier 1.5-2" decks get help but obviously the "t1" decks will get a boost as we are back to square one on "ban this".
I hate bans but wotc don't want t2 to be good(mistakes my ass).
I hate modern because once I finish a deck that interests me they ban a card and now the deck is not even a viable option to play.
We need more good cards and less bans, I'd love to see a few cards unbanned but I know that won't happen because 1-2 decks everyone and their dog plays.
I'm fairly certain that there are a few gems no one has used because on paper(pun) its useless so they write it off.
I dont dare mention much around here because of many people have a set ideology of what's good and don't even think twice because vacuum.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Terminus just bricks creature-based strategies. It doesn't matter what your dude has: hexproof, indestructible, a giant fat butt that is un-Toxic Delugeable, protection from everything, the ability to be recast from the yard or exile, they all fold to Terminus. It does this at instant speed for one mana. The card is terribly designed because there's no defense against it. There is no creature in Magic that can survive a Terminus.
Top is not the ban. Banning Top would ruin DDFT, which is arguably the most skill-intensive deck ever made- the community flocks to watch whenever it appears on stream. It would seriously damage Painter, a unique archetype that contributes to format diversity. We've had CounterTop for years and it's been well-balanced. Terminus is the ban: it nerfs Miracles back down to Tier 1 by giving it some actual bad matchups.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Arschmann
Top is not the ban. Banning Top would ruin DDFT, which is arguably the most skill-intensive deck ever made- the community flocks to watch whenever it appears on stream. It would seriously damage Painter, a unique archetype that contributes to format diversity. We've had CounterTop for years and it's been well-balanced. Terminus is the ban: it nerfs Miracles back down to Tier 1 by giving it some actual bad matchups.
Lol. Nice troll
Re: All B/R update speculation.
DDFT is a pillar of the format and must be protected from heretics whom wish to destroy it #MakeAmericaGreatAgain
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Arschmann
There is no creature in Magic that can survive a Terminus.
Just being pedantic here, but Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage (naming Terminus) prevent it from being cast. But of course then the miracles player just handles them via StP/Karakas etc.
There's also a small subset of creatures that can avoid it: Rainbow Efreet and Aetherling and a few others can hide from it.
Perhaps they could put an ability like that on some new creature that's both aggressive and lower-CMC to help fight Miracles. But if said creature were Blue, White or even Red, it'd potentially just end up being played in Miracles itself :(
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord_Mcdonalds
DDFT is a pillar of the format and must be protected from heretics whom wish to destroy it #MakeAmericaGreat
Unban Necropotence, so Black Weenie is good again like in '97! #MakeTier3DecksPlayableAtAnyPrice
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Arschmann
Terminus just bricks creature-based strategies. It doesn't matter what your dude has: hexproof, indestructible, a giant fat butt that is un-Toxic Delugeable, protection from everything, the ability to be recast from the yard or exile, they all fold to Terminus. It does this at instant speed for one mana. The card is terribly designed because there's no defense against it. There is no creature in Magic that can survive a Terminus.
Top is not the ban. Banning Top would ruin DDFT, which is arguably the most skill-intensive deck ever made- the community flocks to watch whenever it appears on stream. It would seriously damage Painter, a unique archetype that contributes to format diversity. We've had CounterTop for years and it's been well-balanced. Terminus is the ban: it nerfs Miracles back down to Tier 1 by giving it some actual bad matchups.
I own a full foil japanese doomsday.
I haven't even bought foil tops, because i hope the card gets hammered
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Noctalor
I own a full foil japanese doomsday.
I haven't even bought foil tops, because i hope the card gets hammered
Foil Japanese Doomsday.. Only if those were real.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l33twash0r
Foil Japanese Doomsday.. Only if those were real.
He is referring to his deck...I'm assuming.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
>yfw something from Miracles will be banned because of Reddit shitposters that don't even play Legacy
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
>yfw something from Miracles will be banned because of Reddit shitposters that don't even play Legacy
Omg, I think I'm going to cry :/
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
>yfw something from Miracles will be banned because of Reddit shitposters that don't even play Legacy
In two weeks' time:
Legacy
Monastery Mentor is banned.
Maximum troll value, minimum of fuss.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
>yfw something from Miracles will be banned because of Reddit shitposters that don't even play Legacy
And nothing of value was lost...
Miracles deserves some nerfes after 3 years of consistent dominance, including times where it outperformed decks that were later banned. Just look at the DtB section - it either was the top dog or on a close second place each month for God knows how long now.
That said, if they want to weaken the deck without actually killing it right off the bat, Terminus is probably the right call. Supreme Verdict is still a good spell - and more fair at 4 mana while more reasonable counterplay exists compared to 1-mana instant speed Super Wraths.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
At this point, having played it plenty and played against it so much I can't stand it, I'd be fine with it being gone.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
And nothing of value was lost...
Miracles deserves some nerfes after 3 years of consistent dominance, including times where it outperformed decks that were later banned. Just look at the DtB section - it either was the top dog or on a close second place each month for God knows how long now.
That said, if they want to weaken the deck without actually killing it right off the bat, Terminus is probably the right call. Supreme Verdict is still a good spell - and more fair at 4 mana while more reasonable counterplay exists compared to 1-mana instant speed Super Wraths.
Most played =! Most dominant
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
Most played =! Most dominant
Unless it is the most played deck due to dominance.
Edit: To add to that, e.g. if we look at Day 2 numbers, then we have evidence that Miracles puts up results unproportional to its field numbers.
One can argue that all the good players flock around Miracles. But then you have ask yourself what's the reason behind that, and power certainly is an aspect of that.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Edit: To add to that, e.g. if we look at Day 2 numbers, then we have evidence that Miracles puts up results unproportional to its field numbers.
You are talking to Columbus, right? At GP Prauge Miracles put up results bellow it's field numbers. Same with SCG Dallas.
These major events had one top eight Miracles list each:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12433&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12443&f=LE
And these three saw no top eight Miracles at all:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12215&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11998&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11945&f=LE
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
One can argue that all the good players flock around Miracles. But then you have ask yourself what's the reason behind that, and power certainly is an aspect of that.
Power is certainly relevant. If Miracles were obviously less powerful than other tier one decks, the good players would be hard pressed to play it.
But given a choice between two (or more) decks with similar power levels, we can only assume players lean towards:
- The deck they are more competent/experienced with.
- The deck that suits their play-style (even professionals have to balance profitability with job satisfaction - this is true in every field).
- The decks they have cards for. $1000.00+ is a lot of money to everyone. A professional is not likely to want to dump that kind of money for a lateral move into a deck of similar power that fits thier play-style less and is less satasfying to play. Most MTG pros make less money than I do working in a manufacturing plant.
But speculating as to how and why players select thier decks is just that - speculating. The data speaks pretty clearly, Miracles is not putting up overly impressive numbers in major events - both overall and in proportion to its feild numbers.
Online is a different story, but I understand Those numbers come from a lot of 5-0's in small events where you play random decks instead of the winning decks having to play the other winning decks. I put more stock into the large Swiss events myself.
Personally I play Lands and only Lands (both R/G and RUG). If Miracles plays Verdict over Terminus because the latter is banned, that helps me. If Mentor is banned, that helps me. If CB is banned and Miracles players switch to Stoneblade, that also helps me (though I'll lose my only non-combo match where creature control isn't a big part of my game plan). But the data from major events collectively does not support the idea that the deck is actually dominant.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
You are talking to Columbus, right? At
GP Prauge Miracles put up results bellow it's field numbers. Same with
SCG Dallas.
These major events had one top eight Miracles list each:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12433&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12443&f=LE
And these three saw no top eight Miracles at all:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12215&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11998&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11945&f=LE
Power is certainly relevant. If Miracles were obviously less powerful than other tier one decks, the good players would be hard pressed to play it.
But given a choice between two (or more) decks with similar power levels, we can only assume players lean towards:
- The deck they are more competent/experienced with.
- The deck that suits their play-style (even professionals have to balance profitability with job satisfaction - this is true in every field).
- The decks they have cards for. $1000.00+ is a lot of money to everyone. A professional is not likely to want to dump that kind of money for a lateral move into a deck of similar power that fits thier play-style less and is less satasfying to play. Most MTG pros make less money than I do working in a manufacturing plant.
But speculating as to how and why players select thier decks is just that - speculating. The data speaks pretty clearly, Miracles is not putting up overly impressive numbers in major events - both overall and in proportion to its feild numbers.
Online is a different story, but I understand Those numbers come from a lot of 5-0's in small events where you play random decks instead of the winning decks having to play the other winning decks. I put more stock into the large Swiss events myself.
Personally I play Lands and only Lands (both R/G and RUG). If Miracles plays Verdict over Terminus because the latter is banned, that helps me. If Mentor is banned, that helps me. If CB is banned and Miracles players switch to Stoneblade, that also helps me (though I'll lose my only non-combo match where creature control isn't a big part of my game plan). But the data from major events collectively does not support the idea that the deck is actually dominant.
If you want to argue with GPs, at least get your numbers straight and link the right events (instead of SCG Dallas in place of GP Prague):
GP Prague - Miracles coming second, 5 other decks in the Top 32 (18.75% of the Top 32) - which means 50% of the Miracles players played in the Top 32, based on the Top 100 meta - how is that performance below the field?
GP Columbus - 4 (!) Miracles in the Top 8 (50%), another 4 in the Top 16 (50% of the Top 16), and another 4 in the Top 32 (37.5%)- out of 13 Miracle decks in the Top 100 (placing 92.3% in the Top 32).
And yet you're arguing that Miracles somehow isn't overperforming, especially when those findings scale with event size, as you've also proven with your linked events.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
The relevant question to ask about Miracles isn't whether it's performing well, it's whether Joe Lossett is right and people just need to start showing up with dedicated hate the way they do for graveyard decks and anyone packing too many nonbasic lands. It's not like Winter Orb, City of Solitude, Zur's Weirding, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, and Suppression Field are bad across the board.
