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When was the last time you saw somebody play City of Solitude, Zur's Weirding and Suppression Field? :really: Winter Orb is fringe, but maybe New Thalia might change that. Even if you build a deck to beat Miracles, you probably die to a good chunk of the rest of the field. And it's not like Miracles can't adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Besides, people do try to dedicate SB slots mainly for Miracles, e.g. Cataclysm/Armageddon or various Walkers. Success with that varies.
Made the "You can adapt" argument in Vintage myself when everyone was playing MM and Flusterstorm main. Still lost Lodestone.
The point is that a lot of those cards aren't being played and probably should be. Winter Orb is hardly fringe, it's a pretty common sideboard card in Delver variants, especially ones with Deathrite Shaman. Finally, there's a world of difference between bringing in a card that's good in a matchup (Garruk Relentless, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Sylvan Library, or Bitterblossom against Miracles or Shardless, for example) and actual hate like Blood Moon, Choke, Dread of Night, or Rest in Peace. You see very little of the latter aimed at Miracles, and a lot of the former.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
EDIT:
WotC definitely feels differently about a blue control deck than about a prison deck. That also doesn't mean that restricting Lodestone (at least, restricting Lodestone without also restricting Gush) wasn't a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Also, for the record, I'm not convinced that Miracles needs to be nerfed, nor am I sure that it's fine. Lossett made his argument for hate on his stream last week, and it's a pretty reasonable argument (Miracles really does face less hate than basically any other Tier 1 deck). I think not addressing it here is silly if you're arguing for anything to go. I continue to stand by my earlier position that if something absolutely must be banned from Miracles it should be Entreat.
A lot of Miracles lists don't even play Entreat.
It's still something that informs how decks with favorable Miracles matchups have to play their games, and most lists that are all in on Mentor main have the singleton Entreat in the board. Without having to hedge against Entreat, Shardless and Loam (for instance) would be much better against Miracles than they already are (once you account for the fact that Shardless players probably tend to skew lower playskill than other blue players).Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
But where do we draw the line between dedicated hate for a single deck and a presence warping the meta around it? Some people also argued MD REBs/Pyroblasts were healthy adaptions to the metagame during the Delve spell era.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I also think Miracles is too versatile to get truely hated out between counters/Counterbalance, Council's Judgment, Wear/Tear, etc.
How would an actual Miracle slayer deck look like? At least one that doesn't die like a bitch to the rest of the metagame? Eldrazi is still good, but already losing ground due to adaptions on the Miracle side (like more Blood Moons, B2B and Moats).
As for Entreat, I would rather see Terminus gone. It holds the format back in a way that Miracles tears you a new one as a creature deck unless you have ways to make your shit uncounterable (Vial, Cavern) or have counters for Terminus itself. Terminus breaks the unspoken rule of actual Wrath effects (not Pyroclasm, Toxic Deluge and the like) costing 4+ mana by alot and the potential to fire it off at instant speed is just the icing on the shit sundae. With no Wrath effects before turn 4 and at instant speed, early aggression, flash & haste creatures actually become way more viable. Wraths costing 4 mana would also open up mana denial as an actual route to prevent the board wipe instead of helplessly watching them still fire it off for 2-3 mana.
The creatures not going to the graveyard is the icing on the cake about Terminus. It means graveyard recursion is a waste of time without a sacrifice outlet. That being said banning a 6 mana sorcery that is a giant Turd (tm) without Brainstorm would be up there with Kird Ape as the most laughable bannings in DCI history.
Well, they just banned two cards with CMCs of eight a piece, so doing it to a six-mana spell shouldn't be a deal-breaker on Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Especially when each of those cards have cheat-costs that swing games in a ridiculous way.
Drawing that line is definitely a judgement call, but there are significant qualitative differences between hate and ordinary sideboard cards. Red Blasts are the archetypical example of the latter, and seeing them maindeck was a major sign that something was going wrong. Cruise and Dig also dramatically altered not just what decks were good and bad, but also how matchups played out between decks running them. Games simply became about resolving the most Delve draw spells; anything else was incidental. If I recall correctly, the number of successful decks running genuine maindeck hate cards (again, stuff like Boil and Choke) was pretty small.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I don't think you need a single "Miracle-slayer" deck. We have lots of decks, even good ones, that have favorable Miracles matchups; Eldrazi and Shardless are in the DtB forum largely on the back of strong Miracles matchups, and 4c Loam is another deck that doesn't mind sitting across from Miracles and is strong against the rest of the field. Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Moat are excellent examples of hate that Miracles runs; if the deck is that much of a problem, why aren't we seeing more cards that are comparably strong against it, especially from decks like Delver that are slightly unfavored against it preboard and have lots of space to bring in haymakers once they trim on bad cards?Quote:
How would an actual Miracle slayer deck look like? At least one that doesn't die like a bitch to the rest of the metagame? Eldrazi is still good, but already losing ground due to adaptions on the Miracle side (like more Blood Moons, B2B and Moats).
I'm pretty skeptical that even Supreme Verdict is good enough to support a control deck right now. Four mana spread among two colors and requiring double non-blue mana probably leaves any deck running it a serious dog to Eldrazi and with an uphill battle against Delver, even with CounterTop, unless it also has so much spot removal tgat it has serious problems with combo. Three mana sorcrry-speed Wraths for 2X (X = W, R, or B) are likely what would be needed for control to exist in a world without Terminus.Quote:
As for Entreat, I would rather see Terminus gone. It holds the format back in a way that Miracles tears you a new one as a creature deck unless you have ways to make your shit uncounterable (Vial, Cavern) or have counters for Terminus itself. Terminus breaks the unspoken rule of actual Wrath effects (not Pyroclasm, Toxic Deluge and the like) costing 4+ mana by alot and the potential to fire it off at instant speed is just the icing on the shit sundae. With no Wrath effects before turn 4 and at instant speed, early aggression, flash & haste creatures actually become way more viable. Wraths costing 4 mana would also open up mana denial as an actual route to prevent the board wipe instead of helplessly watching them still fire it off for 2-3 mana.
I assume I'm on your ignore list, but for everyone else: what's the point of making this argument over and over again when you know WotC doesn't consider a Brainstorm ban an option worth discussing?Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
What cards do have a true "I win, fuck you!" factor against Miracles? There's a big difference between strong cards and downright game enders - and Miracles has too many tools available to be truely blown the fuck out. E.g. Pithing Needle is great and all - until they blow it up Wear, CJ or even Engineered Explosives, depending on the lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Boseiju+Boil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
But I think Miracles has really gotten too strong at this point and the writing is on the wall that it will be hit with a ban soon. I hope it won't be top because that would kill it most likely, CB seems reasonable but we shall see.
You can say the exact same thing about Blood Moon against Shardless or Lands. It's extremely powerful while it's in play, but they're quite capable of removing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Blood Moon not the most effective card against a deck that has basic Swamp and Forest and then DRS...and then 4x Decay maindeck. Blood Moon (or Winter Orb) though, that is a hate card that lands can't really win through without removing.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
That doesn't stop people from bringing it in (it's typically part of an 'overload Abrupt Decay' plan) and the basics are there specifically to fight Moon. Even with the basics, winning is an uphill battle since you're cut off from Blue mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Agreed and well said. To add to that the last Legacy SCG classic had 202 players with 8 brainstorms-and 0 miracles in the top8. Most of the decks have a good matchup on miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12863&f=LE
1. Does anyone have data on averages of players entering with deck accompanied by how many are winning?
2. Should there not be a best deck in Legacy?
Personally, I feel like Legacy is very healthy right now.
It actually had 8 Brainstorms (4 from Reanimator, 4 from Doomsday). Your point still stands though.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymnyou
Edited, thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by btm10
What if they printed a version of Grafdigger's that worked with exiled cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
Miracles is a prison deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
This is at least a reasonable argument. I don't agree with it, and I doubt that WotC sees it that way, but it's not crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie