[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Was second on 14 man tournament: http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...5&iddeck=44272

Few words about the build:

Its hybrid with LED/LED-less lists.

13 lands - enough to get 2 on draw and also not so annoying when dredging too many lands - I used Undiscovered Paradise as 13th land (don't like Citadel in some aggro MU like burn etc)

MD Angel of Despair - Hate losing vs random MD hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Moat, works good - good body and always useful (u can blow up chasm for etc)

Other targets for DR - Sphinx of the Lost Truths and FKZ - normal combo package.

Discard outlets - 4 Putrid Imps, 3 LEDs, 1 Tireless was very good in speed/stability compromise.
Drawing spells - 4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough and additional Deep Analysis to maximize stability and gold fishing with LED.

11 Dredges and here is something new - Life from the Loam - it works so good here that i couldn't imagine.

Trick: Hand: LED, Loam, Deep A, any land, Dredger

Play land, LED crack LED for green/blue (doesn't matter), Deep A, dredge both Loam and Dredger, cast Loam -> have nuts on hand (lands for example Cephalid Coliseum with ********).

Mostly it was used as Coliseum recurring with additional dredger, and avoiding wastelands mana disrupt.

SB:

In meta was Merfolks, U/R painter, Rocks, Zoo, storm combo + other blind meta.

vs merfolks:
2 Darkblast - very useful to blow up cursecatcher waiting for bridges
3 Firestorm - obv board cleaner

vs combo:
-Iona

vs Zoo:
Ancestor's Chosen

vs Painter:
4 Ancient Grundge

vs Hate:
- Terastodon (its needed additional to Angel in Lands MU)
2 Darkblast vs Gaddock Teeg
-2 Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim vs Leyline and Wheel
-4 Ancient Grudge vs Crypts/Relics

Last word about build:
Sometimes I miss 4th Therapy but didn't know what to take off anyway it was 61 cards already.

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That's a really cool list. I've been experimenting with a similar "hybrid" list. Loam is interesting, I've just heard so many bad things about it that I wrote it off as bad. Some more general thoughts:
I hate darkblast. Sure you can do some cute stuff in the upkeep but there's really no cards that should be scaring you. Mr. Teeg is a joke. Also, I would never not play 4 therapies they are likely the best cards in the deck. Same goes with Ichorid. Recurring Ichorids straight up wins a lot of otherwise tough matchups.

In terms of dr targets iona is trash. She isn't auto win and she doesn't improve any bad matchups. I wouldn't even play her in the board. I'd you're worried about combo get some leds and win faster. Cabal therapy is pro vs combo. Another card that I recently decided to bring back from yesteryear to try out was sadistic hypnotist. I'm not sure if I like him better than FKZ or not but he did win at least one game where fkz wouldn't have been enough vs spiral tides. I'm pretty psyched about elesh norn. However, she doesn't replace firestorm imo. The uncounterability is pretty essential vs. Fishies.

People who say cs is a bad card I think have never played the old led lists w/o it. Cs makes so many more hands keepable. On that same note however, I disagree about led lists being inconsistent and whatever. The last time Dredge was really a big thing everyone was packing leds. Remember when everyone had 8-10 slots of grave hate? Yeah those were led lists they were scared of. I think LEDless builds gained popularity because of budget considerations and its awesome consistency was beat into our heads so everyone believes its the best despite not putting up much in terms of tourney results. (btw didn't an led list recently top 8 an scg tourney?)

I think mm make led that much better. You thought a force on your pimp into a waste on your land was bad? Now everyone has mm and it hits you on the play unlike daze. On a related note I saw someone say something about a tempo deck holding back a waste. Are you shitting me? That's basically the best play ever. Even if they can't force your t1 outlet waste stops stuff like T2 breakthroughs which is generally gg. I think something similar to fatal's list has the most potential.

Mostly agree on all what u wrote - LED build are much better faster been able to discard and draw in first turn is huge impact. There is only one think when LEDs isn't good:

Situation: U have a lot of draw spells and didn't wanted to discard all hand, if you are playing on blind meta (don't know vs what you playing) just put LED on table and start with Careful Study without cracking LED - if he FoW nothing matter 2-of-1 and u still have your other draw spell.

I also think that 4th Cabal Therapy is needed, about loam its not the best way to with but I would never cut it - won me unwinable games mostly function as additional dredger, wastelands are everywhere and sometimes its hard when u get cursecatcher avoiding zombies recurring - loam win this games.

About Darkbast - it is good in all middle-aggro MU and merfolks keeping offboard cursecatchers, and hierarchs is very good in early game slowing opponent and building gy - take more tests and u also like it :) u can also take off own ichorids in respond to path/stp.

Few words about Iona - I also don't like it she don't stop mostly things which is painful for us, but it has auto win button vs some MU - naming black to avoid pernicous deed/maelstorm pulse is very useful - but it could be probably 4th cabal therapy in this slot.

Last thoughts about playstyle - u don't have to all in on start, build your position/hand/gy if u can and control the board with therapy/ancient grundge/darkblast after board - the worst what u can do is discard all hand and fizzle without knowing opponent hand - mostly time u get crypt/relic/bojuka and the game will be ended.

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Originally Posted by rupus

On that same note however, I disagree about led lists being inconsistent and whatever. The last time Dredge was really a big thing everyone was packing leds. Remember when everyone had 8-10 slots of grave hate? Yeah those were led lists they were scared of. I think LEDless builds gained popularity because of budget considerations and its awesome consistency was beat into our heads so everyone believes its the best despite not putting up much in terms of tourney results. (btw didn't an led list recently top 8 an scg tourney?)

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7th place, SCG Charlotte- Chris Piland playing a Non-LED list
12th place, SCG Boston- Justin Russell playing LED Dredge
2nd place, SCG Atlanta- David Thomas playing LED Dredge
6th place, SCG Atlanta- Kristopher Hackelman playing Non-LED,
4th place, SCG LA- Frankie Mach playing Non-LED
9th place, SCG LA- Devyn March playing Non-LED
12th place, SCG LA- Timothy Froehlig playing Non-LED
14th place, SCG LA- Kyle Duhne playing Non-LED Bloodghast
9th Place, SCG Dallas- Daniel Rude with Non-LED Bloodghast

Past 5 SCG tournament top 16's, those are Dredges placings. LED had the highest placing of 2nd, but the lowest number of placings.

I'd also just like to state that I play Non-LED and it isn't for budget concerns. I play Non-LED because I can still win turn 2-3 without it, I can still play from the hand anti-hate, I can still play therapy from hand turn 2 and then cast breakthrough same turn where I couldn't if I just nutted my hand to the yard. I don't like it's play style. I'm not saying it's worse, it is a different style for a different player, but I don't think it's necessarily better than Non-LED.

I also play non LED while owning a playset of LEDs. When the deck regularly goes off on turn 2 there is no need to play a more all in version. I play LEDless because permanent discard outlets give you much more options in how to play out the game. LED builds are good at what they do but I prefer discard outlets that remain on the board.

The LED version is much worse against merfolk which will indeed pick up popularity will mm in the picture.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

The LED version is much worse against merfolk which will indeed pick up popularity will mm in the picture.

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I agree with this. The hole discussion about which version should be played just got to something reasonable here. Instead of saying which is more consistant despite of being slower, just analyse match-ups.

Seriously, this discussion about LED being better is even worse than "will mental misstep rule the format" or "should we ban survival" or "are europeans a bunch of noobs because their results are not SCG". At least these discussions are held at their appropriated thread in which you can enter your flame-proof vest and burninate everyone with your personal flamethrower of choice, everyone is there for that reason...

IMO they are different decks that do the same thing, but the choice between one and the other should be kept as a meta call, as for someone choosing ANT over TES or UGw instead of UGRw countertop or <Insert two decks that looks a lot similar here>. If there's no other place to discuss it, fine, do it here, but at least state things as the above mentioned by Joe_C.

There's no way you can state that one is plain better than the other without a gigantic amount of data, and besides, noone will convice people to switch versions with simple arguments anyways (as for discussing religions or politics, or operational systems...)

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

The LED version is much worse against merfolk which will indeed pick up popularity will mm in the picture.

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That is arguable, I don't have much experience with fish vs. LED dredge but if you go turn 1 LED on the play the only possible answer is FOW. If you go turn 1 tribe/pimp/study/breakthrough/therapy MM and FOW can both halt your progress. On the draw LED can be countered by daze and FOW but so can all the other cards (+ being counterable by MM). In that sense it is more likely to have an LED hit the board, however wasteland on coliseum can make LED less good. All of this is rather moot though because you can just use firestorm.

i have a question about firestorm in the merfolk matchup. do you normally play it out turn 1 to get our engine going or do you wait to try to get value by killing a creature. i would think you play it turn one but it is pretty tempting to off their turn 2 play if they have one.

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Originally Posted by MMHMM

i have a question about firestorm in the merfolk matchup. do you normally play it out turn 1 to get our engine going or do you wait to try to get value by killing a creature. i would think you play it turn one but it is pretty tempting to off their turn 2 play if they have one.

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If I had no other way to get dredgers in my yard I might try to turn 1 it but I'm not sure, I might be willing to draw at least one card first. If I had a tribe or anything else in hand I'd honestly rather run them out first and let them get countered and then be able to wipe their board. Don't forget at the very least firestorm can target you and your opponent for 2 each so it always is giving some value.

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Originally Posted by chags

If I had no other way to get dredgers in my yard I might try to turn 1 it but I'm not sure, I might be willing to draw at least one card first. If I had a tribe or anything else in hand I'd honestly rather run them out first and let them get countered and then be able to wipe their board. Don't forget at the very least firestorm can target you and your opponent for 2 each so it always is giving some value.

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playing out tireless tribe sort of exposes us to wasteland if we only have one land in hand. also sometimes merfolk doesn't make a creature until turn 3 so its a tough call because we dont want to waste too much time getting started. we dont really want to get ourselves too far behind and depend on a firestorm to get us back in it because if it is backbreaking enough merfolk will counter it and we would be in a very rough spot when they do.

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Originally Posted by MMHMM

i have a question about firestorm in the merfolk matchup. do you normally play it out turn 1 to get our engine going or do you wait to try to get value by killing a creature. i would think you play it turn one but it is pretty tempting to off their turn 2 play if they have one.

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Well it is an instant and you don't really care if they counter it so you can easily just go "land, pass" on the play. If they play cursecatcher, You can kill it on their endstep, with X=2 or 3, depending on what you want to discard. Generally they will snap counter an X=3 with cursecatcher, them, you as the target, which is actually better, since against fish you want to preserve your life total while you build a board. Remember not to pitch bridges as they will be removed if you kill a creature.
If they waste your land, you obviously firestorm in response.
If they go Island go they almost certainly have FOW or daze(otherwise why did they keep, Most competent fish players are not going to keep a no-cursecatcher, no-counter, no-hate hand postboard against dredge). If they are holding up counters, just play firestorm, and start dredging ASAP, so you can get them with therapy. Basically firestorm is good because it kills creatures but its GREAT because your blue opponents will often be banking on simply countering your outlets.

As for LED being worse against merfolk: I don't understand this at all. LED is the card you want for sure against Daze: the sequence of Land, LED, Breakthrough, crack LED, is Daze-proof. LED also lets you sometimes play around spell pierce in the later turns. We will see in the coming weeks how the merfolk lists shake out but my expectation is 4fow, 4 MM, 3 daze + 2 spell pierce in the SB. Firestorm is critical for the fish match-up, but so is winning the first game. The final thing about LED is this: often your blue opponents simply Wont counter it g1 even if they have force, as long as they don't know what deck you are on. If you go on t1 on the play: LED that looks like belcher or storm, not dredge, and against either of those decks, LED is the wrong card to force for sure. I always run out my LED before my land on turn 1 that way even if they do counter it, if I don't have another outlet i can sandbag the land to DDD in 2 turns, which is still fast enough to beat Some of the blue decks(although probably not fish). The fact that you don't have to run out a land on t1 with LED means that if you do get your outlet countered you can get back in the game faster then a non-led version.

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Originally Posted by chags

That is arguable, I don't have much experience with fish vs. LED dredge but if you go turn 1 LED on the play the only possible answer is FOW. If you go turn 1 tribe/pimp/study/breakthrough/therapy MM and FOW can both halt your progress. On the draw LED can be countered by daze and FOW but so can all the other cards (+ being counterable by MM). In that sense it is more likely to have an LED hit the board, however wasteland on coliseum can make LED less good. All of this is rather moot though because you can just use firestorm.

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Most if not all LED lists run LED in place of tribe. Against merfolk, this decreases your turn 1 win percentage, maybe not by huge amounts, but it does. Winning game 1 is the big benefit of this deck, giving you game 2 to at least determine what hate they are playing if you don't just blow them out again, and allowing game 3 to be better for you once you have a clear cut idea of what to play around for hate. I'd rather win game 1 and not have an uphill battle to win 2 more when they do indeed have good answers for dredge. This deck is getting more and more representation at tournaments. People will be prepared

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Most if not all LED lists run LED in place of tribe. Against merfolk, this decreases your turn 1 win percentage, maybe not by huge amounts, but it does.

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This is a a baseless and totally unsubstantiated claim, How could you possibly know the g1 win% of LED / non-LED vs. Fish when the Fish deck is going from 8 maindeck counterspells to 11 or 12?

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

This is a a baseless and totally unsubstantiated claim, How could you possibly know the g1 win% of LED / non-LED vs. Fish when the Fish deck is going from 8 maindeck counterspells to 11 or 12?

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You don't. But even before mm was printed sticking a permanent discard outlet is more important than the speed of LED. LED lists forgo tribe for the speed of LED. Tribe is going to win you more games than LED. even against other matchups aside from combo, which the speed may be an actual benefit.

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

This is a a baseless and totally unsubstantiated claim, How could you possibly know the g1 win% of LED / non-LED vs. Fish when the Fish deck is going from 8 maindeck counterspells to 11 or 12?

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Just as much as it is a baseless and unsubstantiated claim that Merfolks will go up from 8 to 12 counterspells, I suppose...

How could you possibly know how Fish will deal with a card that's not even tournament legal yet?

Just let that card come, we will see how we can deal with it. I still doubt that all the Aggro decks in the format will pack a set of Missteps and decrease the critical amount of threats they can play.

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Originally Posted by Izor

Just as much as it is a baseless and unsubstantiated claim that Merfolks will go up from 8 to 12 counterspells, I suppose...

How could you possibly know how Fish will deal with a card that's not even tournament legal yet?

Just let that card come, we will see how we can deal with it. I still doubt that all the Aggro decks in the format will pack a set of Missteps and decrease the critical amount of threats they can play.

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Truth. MM is going to be a larger issue in decks that run other counters, although even against merfolk running 4 fow, 4 daze, 4 MM running less 1 cc outlets isn't going to help you.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

Truth. MM is going to be a larger issue in decks that run other counters, although even against merfolk running 4 fow, 4 daze, 4 MM running less 1 cc outlets isn't going to help you.

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Actually it is. Having half of your discard outlets not be counterable by MM means that merfolk WONT BE ABLE TO COUNTER YOUR DISCARD OUTLETS AS OFTEN.

herp derp logic. And sticking a perm discard outlet vs fish g1 isnt necessary at all. They cannot interact with you in any way that you really care about g1. Merfolk generally cant beat any kind of assortment of like 5 Zombies + a narcomoeba. The only way they ever win g1(besides mulling into oblivion or something) is if they counter your outlet and race you. Im something like 20-1 against merfolk in large tournaments with LED dredge. And probably 18 of those matches i won g1.

@MMHMM Your response is kind of stating the obvious. When you asked when we play our firestorms I assume you wanted in detail situations when you don't have to race them. With no creatures on the board by turn 2 it is probably time to firestorm if you don't have a discard outlet. That is why I mentioned it still is 1 mana for 2 damage and a discard effect.

As for the LED conversation I agree with Joe_C's assessment. Most dredge players favor running 4 tireless tribe over having LED, though it is true some LED lists run 2 tireless tribe I'd say its more important to max out on them. Also as previously pointed out, the decks benefiting the most from MM run other counters, if fish has that many counters dodging the best cards in the deck for other spells that can be countered by any number of cards just seems silly.

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Originally Posted by Izor

Just as much as it is a baseless and unsubstantiated claim that Merfolks will go up from 8 to 12 counterspells, I suppose...

How could you possibly know how Fish will deal with a card that's not even tournament legal yet?

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158-[DTB]-Merfolk/page1

Take a look at every decklist people have been posting since the spoiling of MM. My claim is not unsubstantiated at all.
Thanks for playing.

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Originally Posted by 2nd_lawl

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158-[DTB]-Merfolk/page1

Take a look at every decklist people have been posting since the spoiling of MM. My claim is not unsubstantiated at all.
Thanks for playing.

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BTW, this is not a contest to see who out-argument the opponent... ><
Nonsense discussion (LED vs LEDless), nonsense ending.