Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Siege-Gang Commander

No, it's not. They'll just shoot you with goblins.

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So their entire deck, at least, pre board, is reduced to 1/2 outs (not counting Matrons/Ringleaders). I'd much rather deal with a 2/2 than with their entire deck. It can be countered, and wiping the board reduces Siege Gang commander to the worst Shock ever printed. You can then kill them with Jace or angels or whatever.

I'm not attempting to push this deck more, since it doesn't need to be, but Moat is amazing. If you can afford it, run it.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

So their entire deck, at least, pre board, is reduced to 1/2 outs (not counting Matrons/Ringleaders). I'd much rather deal with a 2/2 than with their entire deck. It can be countered, and wiping the board reduces Siege Gang commander to the worst Shock ever printed. You can then kill them with Jace or angels or whatever.

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it's comment like above showing this person does not understand the mind of Goblin player. A decent Goblin player would have hold a Matron in his hand, pushing you with the first wave, making you wasting your StP. As soon as you Terminus, the Goblin player can rebuild his entire army from a single Matron. When I say rebuild, I mean Goblin player would have Cavern of Soul to make every single goblin uncounterable. If he has 5 counters on vial, he can just tap Vial then spend rest of mana to burn you out. Seriously, if you have not done your homework, do them first.

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

So their entire deck, at least, pre board, is reduced to 1/2 outs (not counting Matrons/Ringleaders). I'd much rather deal with a 2/2 than with their entire deck. It can be countered, and wiping the board reduces Siege Gang commander to the worst Shock ever printed. You can then kill them with Jace or angels or whatever.

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Cavern of Souls
Goblin Matron

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Originally Posted by twndomn

it's comment like above showing this person does not understand the mind of Goblin player. A decent Goblin player would have hold a Matron in his hand, pushing you with the first wave, making you wasting your StP. As soon as you Terminus, the Goblin player can rebuild his entire army from a single Matron. When I say rebuild, I mean Goblin player would have Cavern of Soul to make every single goblin uncounterable. If he has 5 counters on vial, he can just tap Vial then spend rest of mana to burn you out. Seriously, if you have not done your homework, do them first.

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- There is a reason that time and time again Moat isn't going to stop Goblins (more so now with a land that makes them uncounterable).

Just to add support that Moat won't cut it, I've played as many as 3 moats in my board (along with 2 baneslayers), as well as bringing in meddling mage for krosan grip, and goblins still beat me most of the time. The only way I've found to consistently beat goblins is Stoneforge, as much as I don't like the card. Batterskull and Moat don't play well together, so I've switched to Humility, and the matchup has improved significantly.

My current list, for reference:

Maindeck

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

3 Counterbalance
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Counterspell

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
1 Entreat the Angels

1 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull

2 Terminus

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa


Sideboard

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misdirection
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Just to add support that Moat won't cut it, I've played as many as 3 moats in my board (along with 2 baneslayers), as well as bringing in meddling mage for krosan grip, and goblins still beat me most of the time. The only way I've found to consistently beat goblins is Stoneforge, as much as I don't like the card. Batterskull and Moat don't play well together, so I've switched to Humility, and the matchup has improved significantly.

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SFM + BS is also a decent clock and another win con for us. Stalling goblins doesn't work as well as killing them. Dead goblins can't do an attack phase.

The only good goblin is a dead goblin.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

it's comment like above showing this person does not understand the mind of Goblin player. A decent Goblin player would have hold a Matron in his hand, pushing you with the first wave, making you wasting your StP. As soon as you Terminus, the Goblin player can rebuild his entire army from a single Matron. When I say rebuild, I mean Goblin player would have Cavern of Soul to make every single goblin uncounterable. If he has 5 counters on vial, he can just tap Vial then spend rest of mana to burn you out. Seriously, if you have not done your homework, do them first.

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"the mind of Goblin player".

...

Seriously?

Please note that I am no saying that Moat automatically wins the game vs. Goblins, I've lost games with it on board against the green menace, but still, its a giant pain in the butt for them.

To beat Goblins, you need to (after having swept the board or held down his initial swarm):

a) Race them somehow. Some years ago, this meant slamming down a pair of 'Goyfs and going to town on his life total. Jace's clock is sadly too anemic, but it can every now and then get the job done, although its not a reliable plan. Living in Magical Christmas Land, we should destroy the board, miracle a few Angels into play, and kill them while plowing or countering (if at all possible) their haste enablers. Just wiping the board and trying to go long against Goblins is a terrible plan, especially when your primary sweeper just sends everything to the bottom, perfectly accessible to Matrons or Ringleaders (post shuffle-effect).

b) Lock them down: Preboard, when there are no Krosan Grips or Red Blasts, this can be accomplished (in the RiP version) by getting Rest in Peace + Energy Field. In can also be done (to some extent, and with some aditional help from Swords to Plowshares, Snapcasters, etc) with Vedalken Shackles, which they will be forced to destroy (trying to out-swarm us will result in them getting blown out by Terminus at instant speed).

Now, while Moat is not the end-all, be-all answer card, it accomplishes point (b) quite efficiently. It can be blown out by Krosan Grip, sure, but it will at least buy us time to deploy our winning condition or find additional answers. Plus, Krosan Grip in hand means there is one less Goblin to deal with. If they can swarm us, we sweep, and they have another wave ready IN ADDITION to Krosan Grip, well, such is life, but it sounds quite unlikely, specially since they will need mana to play all these cards.

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

Now, while Moat is not the end-all, be-all answer card, it accomplishes point (b) quite efficiently.

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Siege-Gang Commander
Goblin Matron
Cavern of Souls
Aether Vial

No it won't. They can easily get an uncounterable Siege-Gang Commander out and they'll out last your removal because of Matron getting more friends. The life gain from say, a Batterskull, will be infinitely more useful in conjunction with sweepers/removal. If you really want to use Moat, use it with Humility so they can't shoot you after the fact and force them to go for a Grip (which you can possibly prevent from ever happening with Jace.)

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

"the mind of Goblin player".
a) Race them somehow. Some years ago, this meant slamming down a pair of 'Goyfs and going to town on his life total. Jace's clock is sadly too anemic, but it can every now and then get the job done, although its not a reliable plan. Living in Magical Christmas Land, we should destroy the board, miracle a few Angels into play, and kill them while plowing or countering (if at all possible) their haste enablers. Just wiping the board and trying to go long against Goblins is a terrible plan, especially when your primary sweeper just sends everything to the bottom, perfectly accessible to Matrons or Ringleaders (post shuffle-effect).

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SFM -> Batterskull is quite good at this, which is another reason I changed plans.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

SFM -> Batterskull is quite good at this, which is another reason I changed plans.

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The life gained also helps prevent a SGC win through shooting goblins at you.

Also, our sweepers won't remove the Batterskull and we can recast it after the fact. You could be a real hard ass and drop a Humility after dropping a Batterskull, LOL

It's not just Moat VS Batterskull though. It's a difference of 1 SB slot VS 4 MD slots and still 1-2 SB slots. SFM and Batterskull are good, but they also change the dynamics of a lot of other MUs and not always for the better.

Besides, you don't think you can scrounge up a single Swords to Plowshares by the time they find their Siege-Gang? If they use Vial, they open up to Clique. At worst if they use Caverns, you respond to the ETB trigger and Swords the Siege-Gang, and take perhaps 4-6 damage.

sdematt, how do you feel about Enlightened Tutor (either MD or SB)?

Here, I dug up a post about goblins which I think reflects my thoughts about the matchup pretty well. I added/modified a couple things, but the ideas are basically the same.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

The first thought to beat aggro is to run creature removal. Goblins is different though, because if all you do is run cheap mass removal like Pyroclasm on top of Terminus, even a lot of it, I don't think it will matter. The reason that we lose against goblins is that even with mass removal, we don't have a great clock, so Goblins has plenty of time to recover with card advantage. Additionally, without a good clock, lock pieces like Moat, Ensnaring Bridge or Peacekeeper are pretty terrible because the goblins player has forever to find an answer, and most answers they use can't be dealt with using counters (Gempalm Incinerator, Tuktuk Scrapper via Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls, or our favorite Krosan Grip).

In light of this, I think Goblins is always going to be a rough matchup, but in spite of any answers goblins may have (I'm looking at you Stingscourger), I think Batterskull is the best option against them. The lifegain + vigilance is a nightmare for them, but more importantly it gives us a clock. As mentioned, our lack of clock is what leads to failure oftentimes in that matchup, so "answers" to goblins that don't provide a clock are likely going to fail, which is why I really like SFM/batterskull in this scenario since I don't see anything else really providing that clock while also being a pain for the goblins player to play around. To support the stoneblade approach to beating goblins I would start by having 2-3 Stoneforge Mystic and 1 Batterskull in the main and 1-2 SFM (and maybe even a second batterskull) in the side. This way you have a good consistency of seeing them, and if one skull is destroyed you have access to another. I would just skip Umezawa's Jitte because it won't provide the clock we need, and almost any blocker they have will deal with any Jitte-wielding creature besides a flying Clique.

Yes, this is a maindeck choice (or sacrifice, depending on how you look at it) that you must make. However, if you truly want to beat goblins, this is a sacrifice you must make because relying just on your sideboard with a stock miracles list will not let you consistently beat goblins. I think that SFM + Batterskull already plays well into our control strategy (hard to deal with, relatively cheap costs with SFM, stabilizes board, and provides a clock) so it's an easy maindeck choice to make. Then you can supplement this strategy by having even more cards from your sideboard to help your goblins matchup (Humility, Porphyry Nodes, Pyrocalsm etc.), and only then do I think you have a reasonable chance at beating goblins consistently.

I think also that siding in extra Entreat the Angels (or maybe two) is also a viable approach, although sometimes Entreat can be slow and clog your deck with many miracles post-board. Entreat is about the only card that can legitimately steal the game from a goblins player, even in situations where you would not be able to win in almost any other way. Having extra Entreats is also great against a lot of slightly slower, more controlling-type decks, so I consider it a pretty versatile sideboard card.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Besides, you don't think you can scrounge up a single Swords to Plowshares by the time they find their Siege-Gang?

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With goblins? Probably not.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Just to add support that Moat won't cut it, I've played as many as 3 moats in my board (along with 2 baneslayers), as well as bringing in meddling mage for krosan grip, and goblins still beat me most of the time. The only way I've found to consistently beat goblins is Stoneforge, as much as I don't like the card. Batterskull and Moat don't play well together, so I've switched to Humility, and the matchup has improved significantly.

My current list, for reference:

Maindeck

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

3 Counterbalance
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Counterspell

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
1 Entreat the Angels

1 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull

2 Terminus

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa


Sideboard

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misdirection
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring

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How have you been liking Spell Snare in this deck so far? Where does it shine and where do you side it out? I've been toying with adding some number to my build, but I can't decide how many.

So I've been playing the stoneforge mystic version of this deck, and am getting getting stomped by U/G enchantress. What is the plan against this deck? The issue is, I have no idea what cards i could even have in my board to combat this deck. Maybe aura of silence? The issue is I don't want to commit to much sideboard space.

Right now im just siding in a bunch of counters and trying to keep the enchantresses off the board, but this hasn't really been working.

Rest in peace? Nevermore? Serenity? D-Sphere?

I haven't played against UG Enchantress, but against GW Enchantress, Countertop lock was really solid. If you can float a 3 and 2, they are basically out of the game. Against GW Enchantress, having a 4cmc on top or a counter in hand for Replenish can be important as the game goes late, but UG shouldn't be packing that. Terminus is also really great at getting their Enchantresses off the field and it doesn't look like UG has many shuffle effects.

Also... we could talk about to-Moat-or-not-to-Moat all day. What are some thoughts on Enlightened Tutor? I'm thinking of either squeezing one into the SB or possibly cutting a FoW or Counterbalance for one MD. Being able to grab additional Counterbalances/Tops as well as SB bullets is great, but the synergy with Counterbalance seems to push it over the top.

First post here, this is the list I am taking to Columbus this weekend:

Spells (37):

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Terminus
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest In Peace
2 Energy Field
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Entreat The Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Counterspell

Lands (23):

5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas

Sideboard:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
2 Detention Sphere
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Counterspell
1 Moat
1 Terminus
1 Swords to Plowshares

I've switched from a more conventional miracles list to one with a RIP/Helm/E.Field package, and my matchup vs agro (Goblins, Zombies, and fish) has improved dramatically. I'm not in love with my sideboard, and would be open to suggestions on it.

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Originally Posted by dcohio

First post here, this is the list I am taking to Columbus this weekend:

Spells (37):

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Terminus
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest In Peace
2 Energy Field
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Entreat The Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Counterspell

Lands (23):

5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas

Sideboard:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
2 Detention Sphere
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Counterspell
1 Moat
1 Terminus
1 Swords to Plowshares

I've switched from a more conventional miracles list to one with a RIP/Helm/E.Field package, and my matchup vs agro (Goblins, Zombies, and fish) has improved dramatically. I'm not in love with my sideboard, and would be open to suggestions on it.

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I suggest going down a counterbalance and a tutor in favor of the fourth StP and a supreme verict. Also I am not particularly fond of meddling mage in this deck.

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Originally Posted by Jiaozy

Did you even READ the card?!

What does it do against Goblins??
Kill a Lackey!

Do you have the time to wait turn 6 (maybe 4) to answer a Lackey?
NO.
Not at all!!

So why in the world would you play it?

Please refrain from spamming the thread with useless, untested stuff like this...

Test the card, see how it works, see what it does and then come back here.
One, maybe two games (but I don't think it would've taken that long) would've been enough to make you realize how bad that card is.

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I guess you are right, I forgot how many 2 toughness creatures they have.. but no need to get pissed off because of some suggestions.. :rolleyes:

Anyways, how about isochron scepter and/or Circle of Protection: Red in sideboard in addition to humility? CoP: Red forces them to overextend pretty badly, and if you can get isochron scepter with swords to plowshares to stick, you are probably going to win. If you use it immediately after it has resolved, you won't lose the StP even if they have krosan grip. Maybe it needs additional spot removal to be useful enough, like Lightning Helix?