Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I am by no means an expert of Shardless BUG, I usually play Delver or Control, but last Friday I decided I wanted to try something different, so I made Shardless. I figured my Visions and Agents should probably get played at least once, I've owned them since they came out.
I played a pretty stock list, slightly tuned for my local meta (I knew combo was going to be low, mid-range high) with no discard main, a couple extra bodies to swing the mid-range removal wars. I ended up 4-0 with a little luck, beating a White-Stax with no Stax hot mess (basically Sol lands and lots of Batterskulls), Burn, Dredge, UG Turbo Eldrazi.
In the White Stax matchup I win game one on an odd draw where I have just enough Watelands to keep him from bring about to cast everything he needs to stave off the flood of Goyf's. Second game I am super flooded on lands, but it works out, because he plays Thalia, into Lodestone, into Lodestone, but I have just enough removal (and a timely Vendilion Clique to take his Cataclysm and block down a Golem) in order to stabilize. Jace fatesteal finished the job.
I was very lucky versus Burn, in each game I draw enough Bolts to Deathrites that I win at 1 life in games one and three. In the last one, I finally find a Goyf and he fires off a bevy of burn at me, to which I have to force a lethal Price of Progress putting me to 1. I fire up my Tarpit and attack with a big Goyf putting him on one turn. He top decks a fetch and I win. Very lucky.
I beat Dredge, game one he has to mull and the top decks three LEDs in a row with no Dredgers. By the time he finds them, I have 2 Deathrites. Game 2 he starts well, Looting Trolls into the yard. I play a Deathrite. He dredges into Narco and two Therapies with two Bridges, which is unfortunate because it allows him to hit the Spellbomb in my hand. I end up Brainstorming into my Cage though and get one of my creatures to die ripping his Bridges and he scoops.
I could have just given him the win here, but I don't get to play versus Turbo Eldrazi often. Game one I am fuzzy on, I know he had a ton of mana, I Force of Will something and he wiffs on more action. Game two I side in some discard and two Hymns later he has no lands left in hand and is facing 13 points of damage on the next swing. I give him the win after though, since I was the only 3-0 and I'm in top 4 anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigi85
Good morning Guys
Finally we are back on the deck to beat!
I have some general question:
1) What do you think about list that run only 3 Ancestral Vision?
In my opinion is not a bad idea; yes is the core of the deck, but you don't want to see it, in multiple copies in your start hand,not to mention that in late game is a really bad top deck.
I played 3 Visions and one Library and I think it ended up pretty well. Library did a lot of worth, since it usually sat on the table for 4-5+ turns. I never cascaded into Visions and only suspended one once, the game was over by then. I pitched it for Force three times though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigi85
2) I went back to play a standard list (4 discard ,4 planswalker ,2 strix, maindeck) without White splash in sideboard; i feel a bit safe playing this list(probably i'm not so good to play Meddling Mage), that is a bit worse against combo, but in my opinion is more solid in other MU like tempo deck or BG based.
Meddling Mage was good to me, but often it is hard to use effectively if you re unsure of certain match-ups and decks. It is definitely a card that scales to you skill level. You've got to tailor the list to you meta, sometimes discard main will be good, sometimes not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigi85
3) For the most experts:
Sylvan Librabry, is a Must in this deck? with my conformation i haven't space for it,maybe i can replace the 4th Vsion with It!
What do you think about Tasigur,the Golden fang? i try it and i think that need space in our 75s , is not only strong against BG or Tempo, but i found it strong also vs Combo, where you need to put pression, at low mana cost
(Always play it at least on the 4th turn).
I think Library should absolutely be in the 75. Any grindy matchup is absolutely in your favor if you have and resolve Library.
I tried a Tasigur, but never drew him, so I can't really say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigi85
4) I see that the meta is shifting to Punishing Fire (see also miracle list with it), i will not explain how bad this card is for us...i don't find in Nihil spellbomb and Leyline valid answers (1 is not defenitive and one is too slow)... i read about RIP, but in my opinion is the worse choose...I'd like to test Reliq of Progenitus, yes could damage our tarmo and shaman, but you are not obbligated to target our grave!
I think Relic is too easy for them to play around if you aren't going to pop it and too much harm to our own yard if you do. I agree the Spellbomb isn't a great tool to defeat Fire, but I fail to see how Leyline is too slow. Of the decks the run it, only Jund is really going to pressure you, Lands and Miracles really isn't. If I run this again, I'll try 3 Leyline in the board.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Really thanks for the replay man.
Yes probably i haven't much experience on the called, of meddling mage; sure in some MU there are 1 or 2 call (ANT) where meddling shine, but in an unknow meta i prefere discard effects combined with Flusterstorm.
About Leyline i speak about the list that run only 1 of it, in my opinion 1 isn't enough to beat a deck with punishing...in the Dig era, i try the configuration with 3 of them in SB, this is the only way(as you write) to see it quickly, but now i really don't know if i want to use 3 slot of my side for it...
About library i will try the configuration with 3 Vision and one of it.
Bye! :)
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigi85
Yes probably i haven't much experience on the called, of meddling mage; sure in some MU there are 1 or 2 call (ANT) where meddling shine, but in an unknow meta i prefere discard effects combined with Flusterstorm.
I don't know how great Flusterstorm would be, considering Cascade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigi85
About Leyline i speak about the list that run only 1 of it, in my opinion 1 isn't enough to beat a deck with punishing...in the Dig era, i try the configuration with 3 of them in SB, this is the only way(as you write) to see it quickly, but now i really don't know if i want to use 3 slot of my side for it...
Well, my small local meta often has a bunch of Lands decks, along with Dredge. I was playing three Graveyard hate pieces before (2 Spellbomb, 1 Cage), so I don't feel like 3 Leylines would be too outlandish.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I usually side out shardless when i side in flusterstorm.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I don't know how great Flusterstorm would be, considering Cascade.
I agree with this assessment. If you want countermagic, Dimir Charm is the best choice because it's not dead when you cascade into it and has a bunch of utility against BUG and Grixis Delver, the mirror, Miracles, and Infect.
Quote:
Well, my small local meta often has a bunch of Lands decks, along with Dredge. I was playing three Graveyard hate pieces before (2 Spellbomb, 1 Cage), so I don't feel like 3 Leylines would be too outlandish.
I think 3 Leylines are fine, too. That being said, if you're seeing a lot of Dredge and Lands and not much in the way of Reanimator, there's an argument for Yixlid Jailer since it shuts down all the P. Fire recursion and Dredging forever. Those decks don't usually have extra creature removal postboard, so at worst Jailer eats a Punishing Fire for a Deathrite, and Forcing Fire isn't nearly as bad as it is when they can rebuy it easily.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Would you guys MD a Jitte in place of a walker if you were expecting elves? I'm currently testing the lejay build.
Cheers
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cheerios
Would you guys MD a Jitte in place of a walker if you were expecting elves? I'm currently testing the lejay build.
Cheers
I don't love jitte. It's slow and Elves can work around Jitte pretty easily these days through ranger and symbiote. NOSB, Deluge, and FOW are your path. Maybe try a containment priest?
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Went 3-1 in my local last night using a list similar to Andres Prost's from the GP.
GB Midrange: 2-0 Not really sure if I can count this as a real deck, it didn't seem to do anything. A competitive standard deck would have fared better.
Infect: 2-1 This was a lucky match, game 1 I lost quickly to all the pump. Game 2 I kept him off of creatures for the entire game meanwhile I am shardlessing into stuff. Game 3 He gets a quick 2 invigorate start on an inkmoth nexus, but the following turn he has no pump and my Golgari Charm takes out his lone threat. He tries to stick creatures, but my card advantage does its thing and I win eventually.
Burn: 2-1 I happened to be able to play around PoP and get my Goyfs + Hymns + FoW in the games I won. Got the other half of the deck in the game I lost.
Sneak and Show: 0-2 Game 1 went poorly when my only disruption was FoW which was met with a FoW of his own. Game 2 I brought in 11 cards from my sideboard, but my opening 7 was a 1 lander with 2 thoughtseize. I tanked for a little while then shipped it because I felt as though it would be safer to go to a good 6 with a mix of lands and spells. My 6 was 5 lands + Ancestral Vision, so I sent that back, 5 had no lands, 4 was DRS, Fetch, Brainstorm, Maelstrom Pulse (I know my opponent plays Jace& Blood Moon), so I keep it. I draw some good cards, but he has countermagic for my Hymn and I get to a point where I only have FoW in hand but no blue card to go with it. He resolves Sneak Attack after I had Maelstromed away a Jace, and it all goes downhill from there.
Aside from the crappy draws in match 4, I felt great with the deck and my choices. Only difference between what I played and what Prost played was he had 23rd land and I cut that for Sylvan Library. Also my split was 3 Wasteland/1 Creeping, his was 2/3 I think.
Thanks for reading!
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
It seems like a lot of people here are moving to the Lejay version (0 Strix, 0 Vryn's Prodigy, 0 maindeck discard) of the deck. I'm curious to hear from someone who's been happy with their Strix'd version and what they like about it and what advantages/disadvantages they feel the different build gives.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PhyrexianLibrarian
It seems like a lot of people here are moving to the Lejay version (0 Strix, 0 Vryn's Prodigy, 0 maindeck discard) of the deck. I'm curious to hear from someone who's been happy with their Strix'd version and what they like about it and what advantages/disadvantages they feel the different build gives.
Can u post lejay version? Thanks
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PhyrexianLibrarian
It seems like a lot of people here are moving to the Lejay version (0 Strix, 0 Vryn's Prodigy, 0 maindeck discard) of the deck. I'm curious to hear from someone who's been happy with their Strix'd version and what they like about it and what advantages/disadvantages they feel the different build gives.
Hi,
For what it is worth, here is some feelings I had with the deck at the GP Lyon last month. I picked up the deck 3 months ago, so I'm also discovering the archetype. I made a good run with it, felt great, very powerfull against fair-decks but pretty close when it comes to the combo decks.
Deck-list :
- 2 Baleful Strix
- 4 DRS
- 4 Tarmo
- 4 Shardless
- 2 Jace the mind sculptor
- 2 Liliana
- 4 Ancestral vision
- 4 Abrupt Decay
- 4 Brainstorm
- 4 Force of will
- 1 Toxic deluge
- 1 Maelstro pulse
- 2 Hymn to Tourach
- 4 Underground sea
- 2 Bayou
- 1 Tropical island
- 3 Wasteland
- 1 Creeping Tar Pit
- 4 Verdant Catacomb
- 4 Polluted delta
- 1 Misty Rainforest
- 1 Swamp
- 1 Forest
SIDEBOARD
- 1 Scrubland
- 2 Disfigure
- 2 Hymn to tourach
- 3 Thought seize
- 2 Meddling mage
- 1 Notion Thief
- 1 Golgari charm
- 1 Toxic deluge
- 1 Pithing needle
- 1 Grafdigger's cage
Straight list, no surprise. The strix never really had the opportunity to shine since I faced match-up like Sneak and Show, Dredge, Miracles, Jund, TES. It's "ok" against Reanimator and good versus Delver decks but that was pretty much it for me during this particular tournament. I know it's a great card in this deck since it pumps tarmo, can be pitched with fow and defends Jace or Liliana perfectly, I guess it depends on your metagame. When it's more filled with tempo and grindy match-up, it is a his best I think.
Hymn to tourach was great 4 times out of 5. With Fow, it's the best (and pretty much only thing) you have against combo in G1. And against fair-decks, it plays it's purpose of CA perfectly. Against Miracles, it's a huge weapon in early game, and delver variant are not happy to see their own hand shrinking that fast. (BONUS : it's always nice to see the face of your opponent when he knows he can't hide his spells with brainstorm or counter the Hymn. Fear of the Dice).
On the other hand, Hymn was very bad against Reanimator for some obvious reasons.
I think that the Lejay version can be a interesting other path. I witnessed the power of Sylvan Library in so many decks (Elves, Bug delver, Jund, 4 Colors Delver etc) that I'm very eager to test it in Shardless BUG. I also like the control-orientation of the Lejay version with the 2 toxic deluge and the 3rd liliana. Not having Hymn makes the G1 against combo even more difficult, but I don't think it was enough in the first place so... I think the 4th card included was a Ponder ? I don't know about that.
I guess this classic version is great in an unknown metagame since you can deal with most threats, but it's not fantastic either. It depends if your want to cover most MU in G1 but not being great against neither of them (ok, POX might be the exception), or if you want to prey on some grindy MU and leave the Combo-fight later with G2 and hopefully G3.
Greetings,
Spaker
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
What do u suggest to play instead of 4 force of wills? Wanted to swap them for something else. Extirpate? Ensnaring bridge? dunno just thinking.
PS: I'LL test the classic list tonight but with 1 jace and 3 liliana and 2 dark confidant instead of strix
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
guybrush3
What do u suggest to play instead of 4 force of wills? Wanted to swap them for something else. Extirpate? Ensnaring bridge? dunno just thinking
I would suggest Hidden Gibbons.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dissection
haha u serious? If yes i love u.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
guybrush3
haha u serious? If yes i love u.
Totally. Force of Will counters a spell. If you play Hidden Gibbons your opponent won't want to cast that spell you would counter anyway.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Totally. Force of Will counters a spell. If you play Hidden Gibbons your opponent won't want to cast that spell you would counter anyway.
Standstill. Think of the card advantage ..........
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sibelius
Standstill. Think of the card advantage ..........
Sickening. Truly sickening.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dissection
Totally. Force of Will counters a spell. If you play Hidden Gibbons your opponent won't want to cast that spell you would counter anyway.
used to play gibbons in a zoo like 10 years ago. they were so fun to play. However it limits the opponent from casting instants a not sorceries... however i will try 4 of them tonight, they are a sort of x8 tarmos in the deck. However to stop the opponent from playing crucial cards(what FoW does) i would add x4 duress or x4 editcs ,stuff like that.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
I had a good run last night:
UWr Blade 2-0
Mirror 2-0
Gw Cloudpost: 2-1
Dredge 2-0
I felt bad because my opponents missed some crucial triggers, but you gotta play tight if you want that skrilla.
Re: [DTB] BUG "Shardless" Control
