[Primer/Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Has anybody ever played 2-3 Blood Moon in the sideoboard?? I'm really starting to think about playing them. They destroy the 4c decks, Canadian Threshhold, Grixis Tempo, TA, Lands and Storm decks. Also against Reanimator and Elves they are quite good if the opponent does not expect the card to be played at least in the 2. game. Anyone tested Blood Moon in Burn?

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I've tried it before. It's not that great.

Think about the matchups you've listed, most of them you're already favored (except Storm), where Price of Progress is already a house. Your opponents are already fetching basics (the ones that can) to play around price.

Reanimator tries to be a turn 1-2 combo, elves a turn 2-4 combo. Storm typically a 2-4 combo (but can combo turn 1). Moon is typically just too slow.

Your goal as the burn player is mostly to get the most damage through as fast as possible, and use cheap/efficient hate pieces against opponents you can't really handle. You tend to want to streamline more, or have more 1-for-2 cards (like searing effects, or smashes).

That said, I think it's good to try things out yourself, everyone plays the deck slightly differently, so feeling out your own build and playstyle is very key. Maybe you play in a way where you find moon to be a house.

I'm trying to lock down my list for SCG DC next week. I'm going to have a fairly intensive week beforehand so I don't want to have to think hard (cast brainstorms).

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on just playing 4 smash/4 firecraft/4 pyrostatic pillar/some extra searing and vortex in the side and just look to punish cantrips from unfair decks?

Second thought: should I be playing swiftspear or not?

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Originally Posted by amalek0

I'm trying to lock down my list for SCG DC next week. I'm going to have a fairly intensive week beforehand so I don't want to have to think hard (cast brainstorms).

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on just playing 4 smash/4 firecraft/4 pyrostatic pillar/some extra searing and vortex in the side and just look to punish cantrips from unfair decks?

Second thought: should I be playing swiftspear or not?

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Exquisitie Firecraft is one of the weaker cards for Burn imo. Normally we are not THIS afraid of counter spells and there are not that many decks which play a lot of counter spells either and 4 damage for 3 mana is still not the best. 4 Pyrostatic Pillar are definitely to much since you don't face so much Storm decks. Against D&T the card doesn't do anything because of the AEther Vial and there are better cards against blue decks. If you play 4 Eidolon in your main deck allready put 1-2 Pillar in the board for the storm matchup.
Vortex and StS are very important cards which you need 2-3 since Life Gain and Chalice of the Void kills you. You also need something against GY and Show and Tell so go for 2-3 Pyroblast and 2-3 Tormod's Crypt/Grafedigger's Cage. I run 2 Ensnaring Bridge in my board because it is good against Dark Depths, Reanimator, Show and Tell builds and Sneak Attack. In my meta I will always face one of these builds at least single time in a torunament so Ensnaring Bridge works against of all this decks while Pyroblast only works against Show and Tell.

Monastery Swiftspear is a must have since it has Haste and attacks instantly. You always have to ask if you have better cards than Swiftspear and right now I dont think so which makes it a must have. My list looks like this:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flame Rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
19 Mountain

The weakest card in this deck is definitely Flame Rift but since I dont see any better cards I guess 3 still work (My old list was -2 Vortex +1 Mountain +1 Flame Rift but 19 lands are still fine and Id rather draw an other Vortex than the third Flame Rift). The same with Sulfuric Vortex in the main deck, it is more against controlish and Shaman decks. I tested a list with 2 Grim Lavamancer main but didnt like it because Grim Lavamancer has no Haste and its a little bit slow which I didnt like. In the sideboard Lavamancer could work because its quite good to board in the mirror matchup and against something like D&T and more creature lists. No fetchlands either because Stifle will hit you hard! My board:

1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafedigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blood

I also don't think Exquisite Firecraft is a great card in countertop-less meta, but most of the winning list in the last month run 1-3 sideboard copies.
I which MU it's still needed?


Inviato dal mio SM-A320F utilizzando Tapatalk

Hi, i want to share this list i've been playing

The peculiarities are:
(i) 18 lands
(ii) No Fetchland
(ii) 4 Magma Jet
(iii) 4 Volcanic Fallout
(i'm not sure about the 2 Exquisite Firecraft in main, but still is working).

The idea is to increase the consistency and virtual card advantage (i really like Magma Jet), and be ready to kill gain life creatures. Hope you like it.



// Lands
17 [ZEN] Mountain (4a)
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

4 [JOU] Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Spells
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [VI] Fireblast

4 [CNS] Volcanic Fallout
4 [THS] Magma Jet
2 [ORI] Exquisite Firecraft

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ORI] Exquisite Firecraft
SB: 4 [BNG] Searing Blood
SB: 3 [ORI] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [NE] Flame Rift


// Other Sideboard options
SB: 1 [TSP] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

Hey, I tested Magma Jet quite a lot in this deck and it is not that great. First of all it is a 2 mana spell which makes only 2 damage!! With Burn you want to kill your opponent as fast as possible and having 2 Magma Jets on the hand makes the deck extremely slow. Second point is what do you wanna find to make the Magma Jet worth it? Best case scenario you Scry into 2 lands which you put on the bottom of your library to find the last Fireblast to finish your opponent. If this scenario does not happen the Magma Jet does not let you find more damage than a played Flame Rift instead. You play Magma Jet and scry into Lava Spike and Lightning Bolt. You need both cards anyway for killing your opponent so Magma Jet does not let you find better cards which you will and can play instead. But missing the last 2 damage from a Magma Jet rather than a Flame Rift can cost you the game. Furthermore the word consistency does not apply to Burn like you use it. Burn is allready one of the most consistent decks out there. Since its Mono R you are very limited to the card pool for it so always play the cards with the highest possible damage to outrace your opponent. You can never beat a blue deck with card qualitiy mid and long term anyway so dont even think about it and cut the Magma Jets cause they are just to weak and they dont let you find anything else except more Burn spells you play anyway.

Volcanic Fallout is actually not that bad if your meta is full of D&T, Deathrite Shaman builds and other creature decks but 4 are waaaayyy to much. I mean how bad is T1 Goblin Guide, T2 Eidolon and T3 Volcanic Fallout. Well then you wouldnt play it but you are playing a whole playset of it so this might be likely. Cut the Volcanic Fallout to 2 copies main and 1 in your board and make -4 Mamga Jet +4 Flame Rift. The last 1-2 cards are up to you then, I would add an other land since we talked about consistency and a Sulfuric Vortex. This card is amazing because it comes to the field, stops an active Deathrite Shaman or Batterskull AND makes damage. Never play less than 2 of it main, thats at least my motto ^^

edit: 2 Exquisite Firecraft main: With this card people are kind of dividied but I dont really like it either. You make 4 damage for 3 mana. Trust me it is not that great. How afraid are you of counter spells? Does a lot of spells actually get countered? If this is your meta play them, 2-3 should be fine. Otherwise the card is definitely not worth it since youre spending 3 mana for it. You almost always win the race against other decks and Flame Rift does the same for 2 mana while you can play another 1cc spell after it.

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Originally Posted by menph

I also don't think Exquisite Firecraft is a great card in countertop-less meta, but most of the winning list in the last month run 1-3 sideboard copies.
I which MU it's still needed?

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Firecraft is pretty good, even without countertop around the card packs a strong amount of power for one card. You don't always want raw efficiency, sometimes you just want the maximum possible damage out of a card and the fact that it's probably not being countered is pretty nice.

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Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni

The idea is to increase the consistency and virtual card advantage (i really like Magma Jet), and be ready to kill gain life creatures. Hope you like it.

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I would strongly suggest against Magma Jet. I don't want to rehash it all, but if you look back in this thread about a year and a half ago (summer 2016 I think) you'll find a bunch of posts from me about goldfish simulations. The tl;dr version of this is that I built a simulator capable of goldfishing games of Magic. Then I fed the simulator a bunch of different decklists and strategies, recorded all the information to a database and analyzed the results.

Those results were not kind to Magma Jet. However, they were kind to Exquisite Firecraft, which is likely why you've seen good results from the card. Most likely, we should have been playing more Flame Javelin's years ago.

Hello, everyone!

Dirty combo player reporting in. I finally took the plunge and put together a value/aggro deck—this one. For the most part, I've played Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, and sometimes Charbelcher (and Oops!) in Legacy, so I thought I'd try something different. I took the deck out for its maiden voyage at the local 3-rounder on Sunday, losing to Berserk Poison [EDIT: he was really fast in both games] and beating Miracles. Attendance was poor, so I got a bye in round 2. I was hoping to get more testing in, but sic vita est. My list:

16x Bolt clones
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
4x Searing Blaze
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Grim Lavamancer

8x fetches
11x Mountain

My sideboard is a bit up in the air. I'm still getting the feel for the deck, so I have a few questions. Apologies if I'm retreading old ground; I'm a total newby to this deck:
—I really like Flame Rift, but I'm reluctant to run it because it works poorly with Eidolon. Is this often a problem? In what matchups would one side it out?
—Searing Blaze feels great for fighting through dangerous creatures, but it also feels rather finicky—there was at least one situation in which I would've pushed through if it were a 1-costed spell—even a Shock—or a Sudden Shock, but soft-counters turned it off. For people who aren't using it, do you just find it easier to aim for the opponent's face with everything? How often is it worth it to shoot, say, a Deathrite Shaman with a Bolt effect? Is Sudden Shock worthy of consideration?
—I was pleasantly surprised by the deck's ability to grind out the Miracles round, but I felt like I was getting really lucky. I didn't have any copies of Exquisite Firecraft to push through countermagic, I didn't have any answers to Monastery Mentor but Bolts and Blaze, and both victories were courtesy of (clutch) topdecked Fireblasts. I guess I don't have a specific question, but I'm wondering what people's experience with the matchup has been.
—What's the general opinion regarding Molten Vortex? I had one in my sideboard, but I never felt the need to bring it in.
—How often do people 'board out Price of Progress? Card is savage, and it's a good way to fork hard-control decks if they know their topdecks and have an uncracked fetchland. But it felt like I didn't have much game against Miracles with it in spite of that because the Miracles guy wasn't running many nonbasics.
—What in Hell do we do to fight combo decks? Underplayed though I think it is, Mindbreak Trap feels a bit cutesy and ineffective against decks like Storm and Reanimator. I've seen Ensnaring Bridge floating around, but it feels like a tradeoff between shutting down opposing big dudes and slowing down our clock, and there's no guarantee that it'll come down in time to save us. Has anyone tried Stingscourger against Show and Tell and the like?
—Do we have any real outs to Leyline of Sanctity? I guess there's always Sulfuric Vortex and Mans, but that feels like a slipshod plan on which to rely.
—Anybody running sweepers like Pyroclasm or Flamebreak? Earthquake?

Thanks in advance for any and all input!

I always liked Electrickery as a wiper in the board. It doesn't kill your dudes but does plenty of damage to elves/goblins/tokens. I don't think it actually deals with True Name, but neither do Pyroclasm or Flamebreak. The only other wiper I would use is Volcanic Fallout, which is probably better even though it's 3 mana.

Here are some other really good sideboard cards:

Searing Blood
Ensnaring Bridge
Smash to Smithereens
Pyrostatic Pillar
Sudden Shock
Tormod's Crypt
Forked Bolt


I always really liked TCrypt for storm/reanimator, simply because its fast enough to matter. It's weaker to the Empty plan, but that's where Electrickery can also come in. Surgical is really the only card viable against a t1 reanimator combo; maybe Ravenous Trap. Sneak/Show has a hard time dealing with Ensnaring Bridge, and some lists actually board in Ashen Rider for that specific matchup, which is essentially the same as boarding an off-color leyline. I like Stingscourger a little better than Ashen Rider, just because it can actually be cast.

For what it's worth, I think Burn is one of the best decks in legacy for just top-decking gas without manipulation. I would suggest even going down to 18 lands, and maybe 1-2 Barbarian Ring to make late-game lands not be so bad. As far as dirty combo goes, this is still a dirty combo deck...it just plays on a more fair axis over multiple turns.

For the intended purpose, Volcanic Spray seems better than Electrickery. For the same cost, it deals 1 point of damage to each player, with additional upside that it has Flashback. The biggest downside is that it doesn't kill Flickerwisp, but the upsides more than make up for it.

It has been some time since I've piloted Burn, but the deck is a machine so most of my input should still be relevant. :wink:

Flame Rift stopped seeing play with the printing of Eidolon. The two do not play well together and I believe you'll find Eidolon won out for good reason.

Searing Blaze and Searing Blood are almost interchangeable. I personally feel Blood is superior in a format of X/2s. With practice you learn which creatures you have to dedicate a bolt to and which you can ignore (most). This is a 7-card combo deck. Each card you dedicate to a creature slows you down. That is why the Searing cards are important in creature matchups; they let you handle the threat while sticking to your game plan.

Pick up 2 copies of Exquisite Firecraft even if they don't always make the cut for your sideboard. My experience was with Sensei's Top Miracles, so my input is dated. The matchup was (IMO) even to slightly-favored for Burn. I found the pilot that had more knowledge of the matchup was able to steal wins.

I don't like Molten Vortex. It's :r::r: + a land just to start doing damage.

Shave PoP during Miracles games 2/3. Game 1 you are likely to still get 2 damage off it unless they know from the beginning you are on Burn. Also cut it against U/R Delver and Nic Fit. Most matches you want it because of how hugely it scales.

For Storm Combo you need to win the die roll and mull to Eidolon. I have seen a lot of lists packing Pyrostatic Pillars in the board for games 2/3. You can't be good against the whole field, otherwise everyone would just be playing Burn. Faster combo decks are bad matchups. Fatty Creature Combo decks is what Ensnaring Bridge is for... mostly Sneak + Show. You'll almost never be casting Bridge because it opens you up to counter-magic, plus you'll likely be too slow as you mentioned. Bridge comes in as your 'Show' target. If you have 1 or 2 cards in hand then it doesn't stop your attacks.

Sweepers aren't usually included, although during SDT Miracles era I remember Volcanic Fallout pulling it's weight. 3 mana might as well be a million, but it is uncounterable and hits the dome too. But what situations are you finding yourself in that you need a sweeper? If it's against Storm... then you've already lost that game. Otherwise the decks that swarm take a few turns to get there. You should have your opponent at a low enough life by that point where your top deck is threatening to kill them just as much as their swarm is threatening to kill you.



As far as sideboard configurations...

4 Faerie Macabre
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast

Your main deck is fine and you can ignore my musings, but I'd consider swapping Blaze for Blood, cutting a land to add another Lavamancer (he seems good right now).
And to support Lavamancer, I'd probably go 10 fetch and 8 basics. That would also help you out if you continue using Blaze.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

For the intended purpose, Volcanic Spray seems better than Electrickery. For the same cost, it deals 1 point of damage to each player, with additional upside that it has Flashback. The biggest downside is that it doesn't kill Flickerwisp, but the upsides more than make up for it.

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Not instant? No flyers?

No thank you. At that point, Pyroclasm is far superior.

@Ace: nice catch on Faerie Macabre, another really good option.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Not instant? No flyers?

No thank you. At that point, Pyroclasm is far superior.

@Ace: nice catch on Faerie Macabre, another really good option.

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Why does it need to be instant or hit fliers? What matchups were you worried about having sweepers for in the first place? I mean, Forked Bolt is probably just the better spell in the majority of cases. The times where you'd actually care to have a sweeper, being sorcery and not hitting fliers is basically irrelevant. Inkmoth Nexus is the only case I can think of where I'd actually care, and while that is certainly a matchup that is worth considering Eletrickery over Volcanic Spray, the fact that Spray can be cast twice and deals damage to players seems more relevant everywhere else.

I'd rather have Spray against Elves and D&T, it's still good against Infect, and it's decent against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile (matchups where I would not want to board into Electrickery at all).

Regardless, I'm of the opinion that the deck doesn't need sweepers. But if I was considering sweepers, I'd be more inclined to consider Forked Bolt and Volcanic Spray before the other available options.

I stand by my earlier statement RE: sweepers... but instant > sorcery. The small opportunities to gain advantage with a linear deck like burn exist in sequencing and instants allow for that in ways sorceries cannot. As an example, you can overload Electrickery when an opponent goes to fetch.

Sorceries have to be more powerful in order to compete for space with instants, and the reusability of Volcanic Spray is close, but if I don't think an effect is worth it once then having the ability to do it twice won't entice me. I'd be more enticed by the proposition that I could catch someone off guard with it.

Ignore my proposed main deck and sideboard above. If I were to play Burn today it would be this list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=25474&iddeck=199985
Only I'd use Faerie Macabre over Leylines.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Why does it need to be instant or hit fliers? What matchups were you worried about having sweepers for in the first place? I mean, Forked Bolt is probably just the better spell in the majority of cases. The times where you'd actually care to have a sweeper, being sorcery and not hitting fliers is basically irrelevant. Inkmoth Nexus is the only case I can think of where I'd actually care, and while that is certainly a matchup that is worth considering Eletrickery over Volcanic Spray, the fact that Spray can be cast twice and deals damage to players seems more relevant everywhere else.

I'd rather have Spray against Elves and D&T, it's still good against Infect, and it's decent against Grixis Delver and Czech Pile (matchups where I would not want to board into Electrickery at all).

Regardless, I'm of the opinion that the deck doesn't need sweepers. But if I was considering sweepers, I'd be more inclined to consider Forked Bolt and Volcanic Spray before the other available options.

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Fair enough. In defense of Electrickery, it can be cast for only 1 mana and kill one elf, or if you have the mana it can be cast in response to a Heritage Druid activation and disrupt a Glimpse chain. Forked Bolt is probably the card I would go to after Electrickery, and Volcanic Fallout was tech used against miracles for Mentor + tokens. I definitely agree that the flashback option is sexy, and puts its long game value above Fallout/Electrickery in most cases. I just haven't seen Spray in *any* burn decklists (to be fair, I haven't seen Electrickery either, lol.) The saturation of Deathrite Shaman in my meta however also makes flashback in the late game a little less reliable. I think what makes your argument the strongest is the fact that it deals damage to players as well, which is incredibly important for Burn.

Regarding flyers, I play in a meta that has a lot of Stoneblade, and higher than average number of Lingering Souls. Beating a souls token with a Jitte is actually pretty difficult if you haven't gotten within Fireblast range yet. There are also a couple of grixis variants that are still on Young Pyromancer, which makes Electrickery and its flexibility very good.

One card I never really understood for Burn sideboards is Pyroblast effects. I get that at one point Omni-Tell was a huge deck to beat, and Pyroblast against blue-based combo like Show and Tell is quite good. Beyond that matchup, I don't think I would ever board in Pyroblast when I would have to take a Bolt out to fit it in. Ensnaring Bridge always seem better to me against traditional Sneak/Show, and it has splash damage against Angler/Tarmogoyf/Knight of the Reliquary/Dark Depths.

One card I don't see very often in Burn sideboard, and maybe its just a mistake, is Blood Moon. Without acceleration it does seem lackluster, and probably just too slow.

I hope you see that this is not a snide argument, just general discussion. I value your comments immensely.

Pyroblast and/or Red Elemental Blast are the only non-graveyard hate cards that do no damage but are still worth consideration. You aren't bringing them in to destroy a Delver or to counter Ponders. They are for destroying Jace or countering Show and Tell! Or to make sure the Fireblast kills your opponent. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Pyroblast and/or Red Elemental Blast are the only non-graveyard hate cards that do no damage but are still worth consideration. You aren't bringing them in to destroy a Delver or to counter Ponders. They are for destroying Jace or countering Show and Tell! Or to make sure the Fireblast kills your opponent. :wink:

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Fair enough, but I don't think I've ever pointed a burn spell at Jace, like ever...and I already recognized that it has value against Show and Tell. I just don't think its enough against that particular deck. I would also want Ensnaring Bridge in some number. Very meta dependant, mine has only 1 Show and Tell player. At a large event it would definitely be something to be prepared for.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I already recognized that it has value against Show and Tell.

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You totally did. :smile:
I stepped on a soapbox for a moment there.

Thanks a lot for the input, everybody!

So the good news is that I've got access to all the cards you guys have mentioned except an extra Lavaman (traded one away about 6 months ago :( ) and Ensnaring Bridges. Here's what my sideboard looks like at the moment:

4x Smash to Smithereens
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Molten Vortex

I'll probably be replacing the Molten Vortex with more graveyard hate, and I'm likely going to switch my Extractions to Faeries. If I go to a full quad of yard-hate cards, I might bring in Leyline instead.

I'm considering bringing in Stingscourger over Pyroblast, but I haven't decided for sure that I want to try that. Maybe Ensnaring Bridge is just generally better, but I don't have those yet.

Thanks again for the advice and input! I'll be keeping an eye on the thread and will try to give more info the next time I take the deck for a spin.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

Thanks a lot for the input, everybody!

So the good news is that I've got access to all the cards you guys have mentioned except an extra Lavaman (traded one away about 6 months ago :( ) and Ensnaring Bridges. Here's what my sideboard looks like at the moment:

4x Smash to Smithereens
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Exquisite Firecraft
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Molten Vortex

I'll probably be replacing the Molten Vortex with more graveyard hate, and I'm likely going to switch my Extractions to Faeries. If I go to a full quad of yard-hate cards, I might bring in Leyline instead.

I'm considering bringing in Stingscourger over Pyroblast, but I haven't decided for sure that I want to try that. Maybe Ensnaring Bridge is just generally better, but I don't have those yet.

Thanks again for the advice and input! I'll be keeping an eye on the thread and will try to give more info the next time I take the deck for a spin.

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I think Stingscourger is a sub for Bridge, not Pyroblast. Pyroblast would take other slots like Surgical, Molten Vortex, etc. I can't remember, are you playing Sulfuric Vortex main? I would suggest 1-2 maindeck for sure. It is incredible against grindy matchups.

I wouldn't swap Surgical with Faerie Macabre, not if you have Surgicals available. If you only have 2 Surgicals (like me) then I would fill out the grave-hate slots with 2x Faerie Macabre or Tormod's Crypt. FM is better against Reanimator, Crypt is better against Storm.

Another card that could be very good is Scab-Clan Berserker against Storm. Ruby Storm decks have been sideboarding it and it's really good. The haste factor is also quite good, which means it can get in and get renowned even against fair decks (sometimes.)