Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Kessig Wolf Run + Treetop Village + Primeval Titan. Versus fair.dec: At first glance it looks solid, but why do i want more beaters when i already have beaters? The thing i want is utility. PrimeTime could deliver utility in the form of fetching more Groves/Red mana, or the Two Towers, but often at that point i already have 6-7 lands. What i want to add to the deck is utility to achieve full board control. A Kessig Wolf Run to have 8/4 Thrun with Trample that wins the game when a 4/4 Thrun cannot is not what i am trying to achieve with the deck. The real question for me is: why is a 4/4 Thrun not winning the game and how do i solve that situation?
Volrath's Stronghold can keep you in the game while recurring stuff like DRS, Thragtusk or Eternal Witness, which eventually leads to a board state where your opponent can't possibly win from. We could replace Phyrexian Tower for Treetop Village. While i can see Treetop function in the deck, the thing that sometimes is relevant vs combo is Phyrexian Tower. Doing the ultimate T1 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize/REB, into T2 Tower, Veteran Explorer, Slaughter Games happens.
For why I want more beaters: To have redundancy with them while not having to rely on my Graveyard. I find RiP/Leyline of the Void being boarded against me too often with PFire Nic Fit to rely on my yard for having recurring threats. Punishing Nic Fit is arguably the best version to run Stronghold in, that's true, but it's also the version against which people ar most likely to board in their Grave Hate. At least there's the Fire to stop those annoying Deathrites from messing around with the Stronghold's plans.
I see your arguments about just using the Two Towers, maybe it's just my meta being different for having much more grave hate.
For the reason to have those good starts against Combo you mentioned, I would never even dare to cut Phyrexian Tower. Treetop is in the slot of the 7th basic land, not in the slot of the Tower.
It's just the Stronghold that I don't see as the most reliable thing in the world, that's why I personally like Wolf Run over it. It's not dependent on having a yard, it just beefs up a creature.
A small sidenote: In an earlier Version I played of Punishing Nic Fit (and wouldn't recommend anymore, as it was a honest mistake) I found myself killing enemies with Dryad Arbor + Wolf Run frequently, as it manages to catch the opponents off-guard quite often and is immune against Decay. But as my experience with Arbor in Nic Fit wet, I don't like it in this Deck anymore. Arbor was simply the first step in the experiment if Manlands + Wolf Run was a good enough plan to give Prime Time the "Boom!" effect I wanted him to have.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
As far as creatures that 2-for-1 the Opponents are concerned, has Voice of Resurgence been considered?
Also, I can only emphasis how much I like Grave Titan (I have tested the GBW and the 4-Color Version). I also run Baneslayer Angel, which every time I could find and resolve it, has been great.
Since I am not the most experienced pilot of the deck (at all actually), I cannot figure out if i want PWs and if so, which ones (Lili? Elspeth? Garruk?)
I end up losing a fair amount of games versus blue decks.
So far, I avoided Phyrexian Tower.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
For anyone that is looking for an updated ScapeWish build:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
1 Scapeshift
1 Diabloic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Senseis Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deeds
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
1 Reanimate
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Ruination (I have lots of 12post in my meta)
3 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Flex Spots (EDIT: I usually do 1 Mealstrom Pulse and 1 Innocent Blood)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
After some "rigorous" testing on Cockatrice, I think Jund with Fires has to be on its own, and Junk CAN splash red. I think the level of greed to have P. Fires and white cards strains the manabase just a bit too far.
I think two Taigas is an easy solution to fixing the problems. Fires isn't REALLY needed in the Junk build as I've found in testing, so why bother? I think Jund Fit or Jund would be an excellent choice right now, since Slaughter Games is a real piece of tech.
I'm currently going to test:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Siege Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
13
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
11
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
15
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Badlands (or Taiga, haven't tested enough)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
22
//Board
2 Slaughter Games
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
The list eschews the normal Surgical Extraction slots, but I think graveyard decks aren't the best right now. I think Miracles and Omni are the top dogs, with various Blade and Delver decks fighting for second place. I think Combo is similarly positioned, but it has to compete with two VERY heavy counter decks. I think this sideboard allows you to combo Omni and Miracles VERY heavily (I mean, +2 Choke, +2 Teeg, +3 REB, +2 SG, +2 Grip against Miracles seems tough to beat, and similarly for OmniTell).
This is what I'll be testing going into Prague Eternal. I've got a BBE Jund list that is similarly equipped with REB, Choke, and such, as well as a Junk Blade list that I'm tinkering with.
-Matt
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I was poking around on Gatherer and I saw this guy:
Elderwood Scion
3GW
Creature — Elemental
Trample, lifelink
Spells you cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 less to cast.
Spells your opponents cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 more to cast.
Image for reference
What do our junk players think about this? I know its SORTA like Rhino, and I often use Rhino to gain life in matches where life matters, but without something like Recurring Nightmare, it happens only once. Perhaps something with consistent lifelink would be good? The new Dromoka is sorta like that too. Thoughts?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzogchen
I was poking around on Gatherer and I saw this guy:
Elderwood Scion
3GW
Creature — Elemental
Trample, lifelink
Spells you cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 less to cast.
Spells your opponents cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 more to cast.
Image for reference
What do our junk players think about this? I know its SORTA like Rhino, and I often use Rhino to gain life in matches where life matters, but without something like Recurring Nightmare, it happens only once. Perhaps something with consistent lifelink would be good? The new Dromoka is sorta like that too. Thoughts?
Dragonlord Dromoka is IMHO plain better.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
Even then i guess that having Siege Rhino plus Sigarda should be enough. Depending on your exact build you could choose to go Dragonlord Dromoka or Sun Titan or Primeval Titan. Also Baneslyer Angel seems to be impressive aswell.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
After some "rigorous" testing on Cockatrice, I think Jund with Fires has to be on its own, and Junk CAN splash red. I think the level of greed to have P. Fires and white cards strains the manabase just a bit too far.
-Matt
I came to the same conclusion.
4 color Fit is doable, but you lose a lot of consistency.
Here are my latest Nic Fit lists:
JUNK Fit:
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wall of Blossoms
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Stain the Mind
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB is still under quite a lot of testing, especially against combo decks.
Main deck is pretty set in stone, and I can tell you Dromoka has proven to be a hell of a card.
BUG Fit
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Dimir Charm
1 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
SB: 1 Empty the Pits
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Beast Within
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Crypt Incursion
SB: 1 Hatred
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Consume the Meek
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
I would not recommend this deck to anyone starting playing Nic Fit. But I think it has a good 50/50 against all the deck to beat. There is no fancy monsters here, just value cards and underrated ones. Yet it has proven to be a real contender any time I went to a local tournament.
Scape Fit
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
It's been 3 months since I worked on this list. Titania is a powerhouse but 1 scape MD has yet to prove that it is enough. The deck is less on the combo finish to better fight combo strategies but I'm far from sure that it is the way to go. I invite anyone who wants to play Scape to use a more up-to-date list or a list that has proven any good results in local tournament. The only thing I'm pretty set about is that REB effects are really really poor in this deck (SB).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Even then i guess that having Siege Rhino plus Sigarda should be enough. Depending on your exact build you could choose to go Dragonlord Dromoka or Sun Titan or Primeval Titan. Also Baneslyer Angel seems to be impressive aswell.
As far as I am concerned, I did a lot (and by a lot I mean TONS) of test with Rhino in a Nic Fit shell.
The card is nice and all. But, and there is a "but", I have always found the card to be lacking in terms of "true" power.
In a control shell such as most Nic Fit list, you want a bomb/or a strong ETB effect. Rhino is not a bomb and its ETB effect is not stong enough in a control shell.
Too many times against any BUG deck I have faced 5/6 or 6/7 Goyf and Rhino was just there to block and die...
If you want to play Rhino, I think you have to build your deck around the say card. A CMC 4 as top of your curve is a good start but you would need to throw in a couple of equipment and play kind of a Junk Blade. This build might be a serious contender but I don't think a Nic Fit shell is looking for a midrange approach.
If I want to play a midrange Nic Fit, I would play a Blade Birthing Pod based deck as the one suggested by Qweerios months ago with which I won a local tournament. But I wouldn't throw in there a Quad Rhino strategy.
Rhino is a very fine card but the more I have played with the more I think its place is in a "Rock" strategy.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Went 4-3 in our free local Beta Bayou tournament today. I played junk. I saw at least 2 other nic fitters there, one on BUG, one on scapewish.
Beat Storm in 3. Teeg with Fire and Ice is a house.
Lost to RUG Delver in 2. Got stifled off of 2 explorer triggers
Beat 12 post in 2 somehow. Maindeck Mindcensor was silly.
Lost to Punishing Jund in 3. He had a sick BBE into hymn that made me discard a top and rhino. I then bricked forever on action with a top out.
Beat burn in 2.
Beat monoblack depths in 2.
And lost to elves in 2. I hate that deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
Went 4-3 in our free local Beta Bayou tournament today. I played junk. I saw at least 2 other nic fitters there, one on BUG, one on scapewish.
Beat Storm in 3. Teeg with Fire and Ice is a house.
Lost to RUG Delver in 2. Got stifled off of 2 explorer triggers
Beat 12 post in 2 somehow. Maindeck Mindcensor was silly.
Lost to Punishing Jund in 3. He had a sick BBE into hymn that made me discard a top and rhino. I then bricked forever on action with a top out.
Beat burn in 2.
Beat monoblack depths in 2.
And lost to elves in 2. I hate that deck.
That's really weird. You beat all the bad matchups and lost to the good ones, lol.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
That's really weird. You beat all the bad matchups and lost to the good ones, lol.
I dunno. I always seem to have trouble with elves for some damn reason.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Been thinking on the bomb for jund topic and im wondering if stormbreath dragon is better in application then on paper. Realistically it dodges most removal in the format and is a hasted evasive beater. It lacks in the etb department but I thought id throw it out there. Feels low impact but it might be a sleeper.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
I dunno. I always seem to have trouble with elves for some damn reason.
Yeah, I meant besides elves. Should've clarified that -- it's winnable, but definitely bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
Been thinking on the bomb for jund topic and im wondering if stormbreath dragon is better in application then on paper. Realistically it dodges most removal in the format and is a hasted evasive beater. It lacks in the etb department but I thought id throw it out there. Feels low impact but it might be a sleeper.
I've run Stormbreath in Scapewish before and not been disappointed with the card. It's very, very good against miracles, which I believe means it's good right now from what little I know of the current metagame.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
Been thinking on the bomb for jund topic and im wondering if stormbreath dragon is better in application then on paper. Realistically it dodges most removal in the format and is a hasted evasive beater. It lacks in the etb department but I thought id throw it out there. Feels low impact but it might be a sleeper.
Same here, on the regards of bombs in JUND i have ordered 2 Stormbreath Dragon, 1 Grave Titan and 1 Raging Ravine. All in Japanese to match the rest of my deck :-p First i will test 2 Stormbreath Dragon in the place of 1 PrimeTime and 1 something, probably instead of 1 Liliana. Not sure yet. Then i will take it from there and mix some of the numbers. Not only is Stormbreath solid against Miracles, but basicly any deck running white with Swords to Plowshares.
On a side note: i hate to see non green creatures in the deck and wished for something big and that adds utility that synergiezes with the decks main strategy.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Stormbreath could easily fill the role of Siege Rhino in the Jund builds as your 4-of beater. Realistically, you may want to run 4 just so you see him since you can't GSZ him. Pro white and haste are definitely a plus. Like this maybe?
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Golgari Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Stormbreath Dragon
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
-Matt
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I really want a thragtusk in that last list maybe over a thrun the huntmaster or a stormbreath.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
I really want a thragtusk in that last list maybe over a thrun the huntmaster or a stormbreath.
Agreed with Thragtusk. The card has pulled me out of the fire pretty often, stabilizing my life points while gaining control of the boardstate. Running a single Huntmaster and a single Thrun should be fine. With non green creatures SDT becomes more important, so perhaps i would like the add a 4th copy. And is running 3 GSZ sufficient? Also Courser of Kruphix goes really well with SDT, speeding up things quite a bit.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I was at the same tourney as Jbone. I went 5-0 into double draw into the top 8. Then get blown out in 3 games by Mud..... stole game 1 off turn 3 Jace. The rest of the top 8 was 2 bug delver, 2 mentor, mono-red sneak, miracles. Would have been more than happpy to play any of those decks.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
been playing some games with stormbreath in that list on mtgo so far. this morning. hes felt pretty great so far.. although out of 4 games so far I keep getting them in my opening hand.. which is never what i want. One game I had 1 in hand.. and first draw was another... but what can ya do.
I've had to board them out alot but thats only because of the matchups ive been getting.
