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i 100% decided to play test the walking ballista plan after seeing your post. what I meant was "is this sideboard plan (or indeed the deck itself) widely known enough for opponents to factor it into their sideboard plan?" what do you expect opponents to put us on in sideboarded games?Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
When I playtest against Miracles, I always keep Counterbalance in, maybe shaving it a little. On the Miracles side, you can bring in Blood Moons, Surgical, and Wear/Tear. Moon, Mentor, and CB can overload Abrupt Decays. The recursive plan with Academy Ruins loses when CB is out, unless you can get Ballista going - and by then they find Blood Moon anyway.
Granted, I've seen that Miracles usually sides CB out, but it never makes sense to me.
Some ideas I've had but never tested fully:Quote:
While I have everyone's attention, any thoughts to an anti-extraction plan of some number of Living Wish and some number of tracker/ballista/dark depths safely in the sideboard? I'd been playing RG and dark lands extensively before moving to this deck after the GP hype settled and have thought about this as a viable long-game plan (which is certainly what the miracles matchup involves—was never satisfied with any of the tracker/choke/boseiju plans v miracles with that deck). Such a plan, of course, hinges upon whether counterbalance is in or out.
Petrified Field
Noxious Revival
Chalice of the Void (not that we want to bring up that basket-case again)
Living Wish seems okay and worth investigating. It turns into a one-time hail mary though, but gives some flexibility to other packages.
I am testing the following build and side and the miracle mathcup has a lot improved.
// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library
// 7 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
// 24 Land
1 Mana Confluence
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Swamp
3 Khalni Garden
// 13 Sorcery
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Scrying
// 9 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
// 2 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Mishra's Factory
// 3 Planeswalker
SB: 3 Nissa, Vital Force
// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
6 others cards to beat death and taxes/reanimator/storm
EDIT :
side against miracle : 3 nissa+1 mishra+3 ratchet bomb -4 crop -1 map-2 scrying
I am not sure some miracle players leave all the CB and mentor and go for predict+snap+swords which give me more trouble than list which go with mentor.
So I think we have to be ready for both plan ratchet bomb is really good against entreat the angel and CB ; while decay is good versus mentor and CB we have to fight both plans while not knowing which plan they will go for.
After testing I have noticed that the best cards against death and taxes is cleraly dread of night and maze which does a really good job at stalling ; I opt for those two plans.
I think playing more discard is better than probe but needs more testing so -3 probe +2 kozilek +1 garden to have more green.
Hymn to tourach is very good against everything that is not tempo decks (except on the play where it is ok)
I might give up the death and taxes matchup it gives me way too much trouble even with played of DON I have issues to win ; to find them in time.
Hi All,
Just got back from winning a local Super IQ (26 ppl). I ran a pretty standard turbo build, probably the only noteworthy maindeck thing is 2x Sylvan Library. My sideboard is somewhat unique so I'll list that below:
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Krosan Grip
1x Lost Legacy
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Pithing Needle
1x Karakas
1x Sphere of Resistance
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Crucible of Worlds
Round 1: 2-0 Aluren. The matchup seems pretty good for Turbo Depths, as they are just a turn slower in general. He was able to resolve Aluren in game 2 but I had the Krosan Grip.
Round 2: 2-0 Infect. I haven't played this matchup much, but the guy got pretty unlucky, mulling to 5 game one, then not seeing a single pump spell in game 2. Chalk that one up to luck for me.
Round 3: 2-0 Eldrazi. The guy was a very good player, and the games were close--but Turbo Depths just seems too fast for the average Eldrazi game plan.
Round 4: 2-0 Eldrazi & Taxes. Very cool deck, but wasn't running Displacer, which made my life easier. I just had fast hands and killed him before he could kill me. Thorns slowed me down a little bit.
Round 5: ID into being top seed in Top 8.
Top 8: 2-0 Miracles. Game one I just had the god hand: Thoughtseize, Urborg, Depths, Hexmage, Crop Rotation, Elvish Spirit Guide, etc. I turn two Marit Lage, he tries to Swords but I crop rotate for Sejiri Steppe. Game two I also had a decent hand. I spent the first couple turns setting up, then when he went to crack his third fetch I Decayed his Top, then combo-ed out. Two very fast games for the Miracles matchup, which is usually pretty grindy.
Top4: 2-0 Eldrazi. This was the guy I played before, I just had two very fast hands and killed on turn 3 both games.
Finals: 2-0 Eldrazi & Taxes. This was also the guy I played in Round 4. I had two turn three wins...not much for him to do. I needled Wasteland. He ripped a Swords for my Marit Lage but the tourney was ended by a Not of this World :-)
I think if some of the games had been more interactive, I would have put more into the tourney report, but my luck was pretty silly at times. I never even saw most of my sideboard cards because games were over so fast.
All in all, I ran pretty damn hot. I rarely had to mulligan, won almost every game by turn 4, and my opponents never seemed to have quite what they needed to disrupt the combo. I had a good time, all my opponents were super nice, and I won $400...which I turned into $520 of store credit, bought a dumb Modern BirdBrain deck, and an Underground Sea. A day well spent :-)
Played at Eudemonia's monthly sanctioned legacy today.
Played my CFB list with a Nissa Vital Force over a Lost legacy. Would probably just play another golgari charm..
As well as -3 Blooming Marsh, +2 Bayou, +1 Misty Rainforest
R1: Elves. 2-0
G1: T1 Discard T2 Hexmage GG
G2: Same thing
R2: Goblins. 1-2
G1: He kills me with lackey into chieftain into ringleader.
G2: I T2 him and easily win.
G3: I punt and didnt play stage, opting to play a misty to play around moon. I get punished when i draw fast mana which wouldve made a lage 1 turn earlier to kill him..
R3: BR Reanimator (2-0)
G1: A crop roto into bog and then Lage makes short work of her.
G2: She mulls to 4 but manages to get a Griselbrand on T3. I make a lage in response to unmask and then Topdeck Karakas to bounce Griselbrand for lethal.
R4: Infect (2-1)
G1: I fail to find Depths and get killed by a big hierarch after I seize his elf T1.
G2: I manage to grind to a point where I lage after he answers it twice. He finally cant find an answer and I kill him.
G3: I get super lucky and draw needle for his pendlehaven into decay his agent when he tried to lethal. I make a lage and end the game.
R5: ID with Maverick
Top 8
R1 vs Legends Miracles
G1: I manage to win through the counter top lock with NoTW for his lonesome Plow
G2: I mull to 5 trying to look for colored mana and get wrecked.
G3: I manage to seize his top and then Lost Legacy his plows and surgical all his forces. I assemble the combo and use sylvan scrying to get a steppe to pro blue through a potential clique. He has clique but it doesnt matter.
R2 vs Goblin rematch
G1: I go for it eot T2 but he just drew Stingscourger off the top after a duress.
G2: Weird game where he hits 5 mana to cast Earwig squad into kiki earwig. for some beats. I make a lage and manage to NoTW a sting scourger trigger and kill him
G3: I managed to get there with making a lage in response to moon.
R3: Split finals with my friend on infect and I make out with a Taiga for RUG Lands. Not too bad today.
Played in a ~60 man 6 round event today for cash. Was steamed on TJ Collectibles' twitch, but can't find a replay anywhere.
R1: Red Aluren 2-1
R2: Grixis Delver 2-1
R3: Mogg Stompy 2-1 - Yeah, this was amazing. I boarded in Ballista intending to be able to shoot some of his guys and maybe have a chance. My opponent got very unlucky and I was able to take G3 by beatdown. Sideboarding was: -4 Sylvan Scrying -3 Not of This World -3 Pithing Needle +4 Ballista +4 Decay +1
R4: Death and Taxes 0-2 - This round was on camera and it definitely affected my play. I probably should have just asked to not be on camera (it was an option...) and I probably would have been fine. My opponent was only a little bit familiar with the matchup. However, I set up Ballista + Volrath's in G2 and I think I would have been fine if I had taken his Batterskull with my Thoughtseize earlier.
R5: Grixis Delver 2-0
R6: Miracles 1-2 - We both mulled to 6 in G1 and my hand was considerably more powerful than his - Land, Needle, Crop Rotation, Depths, Hexmage, Not of This World, draw a 2nd Not of This World. G2 I stalled on 4 lands with no powerful cards and died to Snapcaster beats (though my opponent had wriggled free of Needle so he had Top active, probably dead a million ways). G3 was very close. I had a pretty great hand and started with turn 1 Needle on Top, turn 2 Library (both unanswered). I got out Ballista and Stronghold and started going to town on him. He stalls a bit with Swords and Terminus but it doesn't do much. However, he *blind* topdecks Entreat for 4 angels probably only one or two turns before dying to my Ballista (it's a 3/3 at the moment). At his EOT I have 6 lands. I make a 20/20 with 3 of them (losing 2 in the process), Decay an Angel, attack and pump to a 4/4 ballista. So it's down to his one angel vs my Marit Lage. However, he has a Swords, then a Snapcaster Surgical. He had a Counterbalance out, and I could have taken a gamble that there was not a blind 1-drop on top and Crop Rotated for a Bog to counter his Surgical, but I figured he could only Surgical either Ballista or Depths and I would get away with it. However, he chooses Depths and turns off the series of nothing but land searches I find off of Library, because I'm at too few lands to Ballista him properly.
Felt a bit bad losing two win-and-ins, but you have to hit bad matchups eventually! Ballista felt great against Miracles, Death and Taxes, and possibly Mogg Stompy. I'm definitely going to be sticking with it for now. Miracles matchup felt winnable and close, game three was just about locked up without the blind Entreat. Still got top 16 for some $.
I have this coming week off from school so I might be streaming sometime. I will try to post here with a link once I have a better idea about that.
I saw a bit of your game two vs D+T yesterday. Your opponent made an interesting play of naming Hexmage with Revoker when he had multiple answers to Marit Lage instead of naming Walking Ballista. You had already shown him Ballista and Volrath's Stronghold. It was to protect the Vial I assume and turned that game into a much more interesting one.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
Hey guys, I've been lurking since GP Louisville and finally played a competent tourney with this deck, got 3rd yesterday in a 13-man cash tourney in NC (only prior event was an FNM). I played DNSolver's Legacy Challenge list (Ballistas) but -2 Bayou -3 Catacomb, +4 Blooming Marsh +1 Shizo, DS.
Round 1: UR Delver (2-1)
Game 1 I'm on the draw. He beats me down with 1 Delver 2 Swiftspears. I choose to Duress twice on T2 instead of casting Sylvan Scrying since I saw Price of Progress in his hand off the Delver flip and more burn in hand off the T1 Discard. If I had gone for Scrying I had the T3 Lage but the second Swiftspear altered the clock and I died. Should have been more aggressive.
Game 2 I just natty him WAY too fast. May have been discard into Lage T2, maybe T3.
Game 3 I T3 the Lage EOT, my previous 2 turns were 2 discard spells and a Map I think. He floated a Submerge perfectly off of Ponder/Brainstorms but I didn't play the forest he needed to stop me.
Round 2: Food Chain (2-1)
Game 1 I believe he goes infinite (2 Griffin 1 Eldrazi), I get Lage, but he casts 3 back-to-back Brainstorms off of his conveniently uncracked fetches and finds the Emrakul to win. I had enough permanents to sac to Emrakul and keep Lage alive, but his backup Griffins and BoP keep me from killing him.
Game 2 He gains life off Deathrite (to 21), I swing him to 1 with Lage and he can't topdeck an answer.
Game 3 was just redundant combo pieces in hand. I went Urborg - Petal - Hexmage against his T1 Birds, he has Abrupt Decay but misses a land drop, I use next 2 turns to set up Depths, and his blocking Strixes don't buy him enough time.
Round 3: BUG Delver (1-2)
Our resident Vintage player on a BUG delver list that is just 110% counterspells and interaction, haha. These were great games, really grindy. Game 1 I die to Tarmo beats and Deathrite activations, Game 2 I T2 combo him with Hexmage. Game 3 We get to a spot where I'm at 3 life against his untapped Deathrite (Sea and Bayou also untapped) and Tarmogoyf, he is dead to combo but has wasteland vs. my lots of mana, Hexmage, and a Stage (I also have 2 Crop Rotations in hand). I think the sequence went: Activate hexmage, he Wastes Depths, I Crop Rot it for a new one, he Forces the Crop, I crack a petal for second Crop, resolves, and he stifles my Stage activation. It may have also been in reverse (Stage first then Hexmage). Either way, Stifle wins games.
Round 4: RUG Lands (1-0 win in Turns)
The grindiest game of Magic I have played in a long time. Dude was a bit salty going into the round and my slow play did not help ease the tension. I was trying to mentally navigate the when-this-then-that with all the effect lands we had out and I could not find a needle to save my life. Game 1 I T1 discard his Exploration. Later I kill his Karakas, grab a Lage, and he is forced to slowly lose all his lands to Glacial Chasm as he strategically draws in hopes of finding the Exploration he needs for the lockout. He can't do it and scoops it up when he loses his 2nd green source to Chasm's sac trigger. This game takes like 35 minutes.
Game 2 he finds the Exploration, builds his mana and we stare at each other for a while. I misplay and drop a Karakas, which he Stages (I'd been holding 2 Depths and 2 Not of this World in hand forever, just got antsy and played something to avoid discarding for turn). I find a turn to blow up his Karakas copy, sneak under his other 2 stages, and name Stage with Needle (my Stage was copying a basic Swamp). I make Lage and he is forced to set up Chasm, but he lets it take his life quite down to 2 so I deploy Elvish Spirit Guides in anticipation of a turn where he finds his Karakas and tries to rely on 2 Maze of Ith to stop my ESGs from killing him. In turns, I play a Sylvan Library (T0), find a Needle naming Maze (T2), and find a Surgical (T4). While dredging on T5, he confidently says "let's draw because I would have killed you next turn with Academy Ruins on Engineered Explosives to stop your Needles", so I show him the Surgical. I felt bad about playing slow but he was still not winning the second game so... less bad I guess?
Overall the deck felt great, I dodged D&T and Miracles and more patient play may have won me the BUG Delver match. I know DNSolver really digs the graveyard-less aspect of the deck, but in grindy matchups I always want a miser's Loam out of the board. The Lands matchup would have been a cakewalk if I could have rebought my ghost Quarter in either of those games. Thanks for reading!
Golgari Charm has consistently impressed me with its utility. Being able to wrath DnT as well as strix, elves, goblins whatever has been great. It also can snipe Blood moons and the occasional counterbalance which is nice.
I doubt there is too much (if any) useful info here for you guys since most of you have been running Depths for a while and there are fairly big differences in card selections between versions, but in case anyone feels like giving it a listen.... I did a deck tech for leaving a Legacy that got posted today. If any of you check it out, I'd love to hear any feedback.
http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-s...hepp-negator77
So I recently noticed a Turbo Depths list with 4x Chalice of the Void in the board.
I assume this is geared toward Miracles, to shut off StP and make it much harder for them to Terminus.
What other matchups do you bring it in for?
Also, this deck plays several 1-drops: Crop Rotation, 8x targeted discard, 3x pithing needle. Does this not make Chalice a no-go for us? Do you just cut discard for it against Miracles?
I liked the explanation of how you ended up on bug instead of straight b/g. I've been going through the same frustrations that you talked about with the fast mana cards that you cut in favor of mox diamond + extra lands, as well as the issue of drawing bog/steppe. I picked up Underground sea and trop in baltimore a couple weeks ago, so i can run your 75 in paper now. Gonna run it at my LGS tomorrow, and maybe a GPNJ side event this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
I do have a question about your list that may have already been answered. Why do you run wasteland instead of ghost quarter main deck?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
Added this cast to the primer under video's and coverage.
Is the list in the primer still your current list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FZA
I run 4x Chalice in my sideboard--I'm new to this deck but I'll give you my thoughts on it and maybe others can chime in.
It is definitely great in the miracles matchup, it cramps their style big time and, if nothing else, stretches their counter magic very thin. I have experimented with Chalice coming in against Death & Taxes when I am on the play to shut off a lot of the cards I care about, I don't think it is good at all on the draw--and again this is just my experimentation.
Against Delver and burn strategies it is great--but you are faster than those decks so I'm not actually sure you need it. I think it makes more sense against Delver than burn. Against Delver I would take out some number of Crop Rotations anyways because of all the counter magic, so Chalice fits nicely in that matchup, even if it's not totally necessary.
Against storm--especially fast storm like Belcher and TES--often you will only have time to get one discard spell in before they can go off. Dropping a chalice for 0 or 1 often just ends the game. And those decks are some of the only decks in the format faster than us. Also--Chalice on 1 does some serious work against Elves, another matchup where they can be a turn faster.
I have actually changed my main deck a little to make Chalice less damaging to my own game plan. I don't run any Expedition Map and only 6 discard spells. Instead, I run 2x Sylvan Library and 3x Into the North. So my mana curve isn't as shut-off by Chalice on 1. That way, when I bring in Chalice, and take out my Crop Rotations, I still have plenty of tutors/card selection.
In summation, when I first started playing this deck, I thought Chalice was 100% correct. Now that I have been playing it for a little bit, I am on the fence. I think the sideboard options for Turbo Depths are pretty wide open, just depends on your game plan for different matchups.
If someone would humor me for a minute. The variances between Negator, ComplexPants, and my decks are outlined below.
Stripping the decks of the cards leaves the shell with all of the combo pieces, tutors, discard (because everyone agrees on this), and 24 lands.
ComplexPants / DNS - 17 cards
4 Lotus Petal
3 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
3 Not of This World
1 Into the North
1 Sylvan Library
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
+1 land (you need at least 24 if you take out the fast mana)
Apple713 - 17
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Library
Negator77 - 16
3 Expedition Map
4 Mox Diamond
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Lands
Here are the cards that we agree should be in the deck but UNSURE of whether they should be in the sb or main deck
3-4 Pithing needle
2-4 Abrupt Decay
This leaves 16-17 cards to work with in the main deck, more than an entire SB worth to shape the main deck against the meta.
If the biggest offenders for the deck are miracles / D&T, is it worth building in better resilience main deck against these that might also apply to other decks in the meta?
What would you add main deck in these 16 slots to improve these matchups?
Would you just stick with what you have?
No, my current list is this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14724&d=288564&f=LE
Despite all the bad experiences I've had with the Miracles matchup, I have not considered changing the main deck at all. I've found that:
1) 8 fast mana allows for chances to steal games out of nowhere or surprise opponents (still get people with Spirit Guide)
2) 8 discard makes combo matchups pretty easy
3) 3/1 Needle split shuts down Delver so easily and is part of why the matchup is so good. I would always want 3 Needles in the main.
4) 11 tutors gives the deck plenty of redundancy. Might cut 1 but I really like that counterspells don't do much.
5) Not of This World gives you a chance against the white decks in G1
So, after I cement those slots, I don't have much to adjust. Now Not of This World could get switched out for Chalice on 1 to stop Swords to Plowshares I suppose, but I'm not too much a fan of Chalice anyway. To change the maindeck I would have to sacrifice some slots from 1,2,3, or 4. I have tried cutting all the fast mana for Sylvan Libraries and some Decays and it felt okay in the few leagues I've run with it.
On another note: I played against 2 Death and Taxes decks tonight at a weekly. The Walking Ballista plan affected a ton of my decisions, sideboarding and discard spells and such. My sideboard plan was like this, didn't know what to cut exactly because I wanted to leave in the land tutors:
-8 fast mana -4 Duress -2 Not of This World +4 Ballista +1 Volrath's +1 Karakas +1 Pithing Needle +4 Decay +3 Sylvan Library
Ballista did some work cleaning up some creatures, but I felt that the plan overall was weaker than my previous plan that left in Not of this Worlds and most Duresses (to hit equipment and Swords) while leaning on opening hands with Needle / Library. Having Ballista in my deck definitely affected some of my Thoughtseize targets, but I think that Ballista might be too slow in the matchup. Could have been a bad night, though, so I'm hoping to listen for others' results.
Side note: I do like Golgari Charm as a sideboard card against Death and Taxes and Miracles. If the Ballista tech ends up not working out, I will try some of these next. I don't like that it's reactive in a matchup where you need to be proactive or die to Entreat / Mentor. Charm buys time against Mentor but it's main purpose would be killing Blood Moon I imagine, and we'd probably rather have Krosan Grip except for the utility with the -1/-1 vs. D+T.
I did notice in your youtube vid that Ballista was roughly the same as Dread of Night, except spread over two turns. It starts to be a question then of which is more flexible and playable versus other decks you need that slot for.
Dread can shut down Mentor fairly well (it still has prowess but loses its exponential power).
The recursion, variable cost against CB, and potential wincon are big benefits, but the speed of spending 6+ mana over several turns versus a 1 mana quick board wipe and static effect to accomplish the same thing is something to consider.
Ballista might be better in a slower version of the deck...which I guess if you're transforming into that after board, then that works too.
Oh, I'm definitely still playing Ballista vs Miracles. After recent results, I think that even though I'm going to have it in my sideboard, I will actually *not* bring it in against Death and Taxes, in favor of keeping to my plan of comboing with protection.
Hey, Depths won an IQ this weekend! http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112171
The manabase looks a little scattered to me, but I don't mind it. Is this someone's deck here? Sideboard is sweet too. I like that Macabre can't be countered, and I've discussed it with local players who all seem to fear it more than Surgical (besides Reanimator).