[OLD] UGw Threshold

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09-26-2008, 02:08 PM
jazzykat

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

ITF is sick against you. They have a lot of relevant cards that curve at 3 where you don't frequently reach with CB, and they have plenty of 1 and 2 CC which will stuff you if they get the early CB.

Lastly, in the later game they can set EE at some retardedly high number and unless you can FoW your daze and CB do nothing.

As an avid ITF player my experience has been... You Lose.

UGR Thrash has a much better chance (Blood Moon if you're saucy, or just the mana disruption + stifles) and using Thread of Disloyalty can steal a game.
09-26-2008, 02:43 PM
Adan

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzykat

ITF is sick against you. They have a lot of relevant cards that curve at 3 where you don't frequently reach with CB, and they have plenty of 1 and 2 CC which will stuff you if they get the early CB.

Lastly, in the later game they can set EE at some retardedly high number and unless you can FoW your daze and CB do nothing.

As an avid ITF player my experience has been... You Lose.

UGR Thrash has a much better chance (Blood Moon if you're saucy, or just the mana disruption + stifles) and using Thread of Disloyalty can steal a game.

I agree here. Pithing Needle might be a good tool against ITF, but the problem is their quantity of cards that will screw you as well as the flexibility ITF has through Intuition which allows him to play around Needle easily.

There are just too many cards that will break your neck:

2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Pernicious Deed, 4 Counterbalance, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, 1-2 Vedalken Shackles...

All these cards have to be shut off somehow, but that is obviously impossible.

And sometimes, people might also play some strange random cards that will suddenly rape you out of nothing, right jazzykat?

(We once met each other on a random MWS encounter and played the mirrormatch - by the way it's like you are playing after the 3rd heart-attack - and he played Haunting Echoes. I still won that game, but I was still intimidated like hell).
09-26-2008, 02:49 PM
jazzykat

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adan

And sometimes, people might also play some strange random cards that will suddenly rape you out of nothing, right jazzykat?

(We once met each other on a random MWS encounter and played the mirrormatch - by the way it's like you are playing after the 3rd heart-attack - and he played Haunting Echoes. I still won that game, but I was still intimidated like hell).

Now Adan... what is so random about echoes :P That was a great game which I was so happy to have echoed you with was totally OK with losing!

You know...before Etched Oracle (who is super fantastic), mostly because of his synergy with Stronghold/Ruins + CB and non the STPable solution it was my favorite out of nowhere YOU LOSE card.
09-26-2008, 02:57 PM
Adan

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzykat

Now Adan... what is so random about echoes :P That was a great game which I was so happy to have echoed you with was totally OK with losing!

haha, I know that. The main thing is to annoy people to death, even though you are losing (that's why I am always thinking about playing MUC, lol).

Quote:

You know...before Etched Oracle (who is super fantastic), mostly because of his synergy with Stronghold/Ruins + CB and non the STPable solution it was my favorite out of nowhere YOU LOSE card.

Yes, Etched Oracle is also a problem as you won't be able to handle it. I'd also say it's a bit similar to MUC's Rainbow Efreet. If it would be removed or die anyways, it can be sacrificed and recurred via Strionghold or Ruins. And that's not even CDA since Oracle generates a cardadvantage of +2 cards which compensates the "skipped" drawphase. That is just sick.
09-26-2008, 11:30 PM
raharu

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ophidian

1 timely Perish will crush them, and then you lock em out under Counter/Top

I, unfortunately don't have the benefit of running black in my UGw Thresh so I'm stuck with Hail Storm, and even with a well-timed Hail Storm, you can still win the match. Just remember that in the "Who's the Beatdown?" mindset, you are the control deck, so just play it like that.

Errrr, no. Perish is essentially a WoG in that match, which would fucking suck for me, as I only run 10 creatures in the 75 (Enforcers occasionally becomes MD Pithing Needles), and they have >9000 ways to restock. Imperious Perfect doesn't care about CB and can build a board all by itself, Immaculate Magistrate, while lackluster on a small board, is still a problem (Perfect + Magistrate - removal = no fun times at all, even if it's just the two). Also, note that Sylvan Messenger is stupider in this build than Goblin Ringleader is in Goblins (23 lands + whatever non-goblins in the MD relative to 16 lands and 3 Concordant Crossroads in this particular Elves build. While not a large margin, he averages ~2.733(repeating) cards off of stupid Messenger). They simply have more resources. Perish, I can assure you, is certainly not the answer. Luckily, CB actually is of help though, stopping the random Deathtouch bullshit dead in it's tracks. A board of Tarmogoyf and a Nimble Mongoose staring at a Vanquisher wearing a Graft token from Lanowar Reborn is... well, it's pretty damn gay, to say the least.

Tangent: I have 3 slots that are currently occupied by Predict, and as much as I love the card, it seems to me that it's not pulling its weight, so I'm considering replacing it. My first thought was using Portents, but... well, the curve is super-duper narrow already. Without Predict, I have 10 cards at the 2cc slot... Yeah :frown: So, with this in mind I'm considering replacing the Predicts with Dark Confidants. I dislike this because the main thing I loved about Predict was the threshold acceleration. Now that I'm increasing the permanent count at the expense of that, I... iDunno. I just really dislike the thought of it, even though DC should draw me more non-permanent spells, it's still not immediate. I'd honestly like to play 2 or 3 'Bears in those slots, but again, more permanents (and threshold reliant permanents at that), at the expense of thresh acceleration. That's pretty icky.

Ergh. Threshold is annoying to tweak.
09-27-2008, 06:15 AM
diffy

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold
Quote:

Originally Posted by raharu

I'm considering replacing the Predicts with Dark Confidants.

I wouldn't cut Predict for Dark Confidant because of several reasons:
- Dark Confidant makes you splash a fourth colour. This reduces the stability of your manabase and prevents you from playing 2+ basics. This will lead to random losses and/or to harder games against stuff like recurring Wastelands, Back to Basics, Blood Moon & Co.. The point can be made that you can just Needle the former and counter the later, but why would you want to spend resources on not letting something resolve if you could just more or less ignore it if playing a better manabase anyway? You only have very limited answers when playing Threshold and therefore being able to ignore some of your opponent's threats is even more important than in other decks.
- Another major point in favour of Predict is that it draws the cards when you play it. Play it, draw two cards, see what's next. Compare this to Dark Confidant: you have to play him at sorcery speed, hope that he lives, and only then can you start drawing cards. Three turns after casting the Confidant will you have drawn as many cards as Predict has... now that's not very tempo-y, is it? If you play the deck more like a control deck with super efficient finishers (as I do), Predict still isn't bad either due to its instant-speed nature being more synergistic with low land counts and manaintensive CounterTop engine than Dark Confidant.
- Also, Dark Confidant isn't a reliable source of Card Advantage. It just has a huge target sign on its head and will close to always get handled immediately whereas Predict is not regarded as threat and will therefore always restock your hand. This is a huge point against Dark Confidant as you just need that Card Advantage badly because besides Counterbalance you're only making 1for1s and the occasional 1for2 which in the long run will cause you to run out of steam. For sure you can say that if they kill your Confidants your other guys will live, but unfortunately this is often not the case as more often than not your opponent has more removal than you have (targetable) dorks. You can then make the point that Counterbalance protects Dark Confidants for them to grow to a retarded CA-engine which obviously is true, but if you have CounterTop on-line, you're in quite a good position anyway. I'd rather have something that actually gets me through to the Counterbalance and/or the Top in the first place.
- Minor points: Predict milling away chaff and raising graveyard count.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adan

Yes, Etched Oracle is also a problem as you won't be able to handle it. I'd also say it's a bit similar to MUC's Rainbow Efreet. If it would be removed or die anyways, it can be sacrificed and recurred via Strionghold or Ruins. And that's not even CDA since Oracle generates a cardadvantage of +2 cards which compensates the "skipped" drawphase. That is just sick.

Thing is, you don't have to handle Etched Oracle as it's not really a threat. It will only chump your Goyfs and make the ITF player waste his turns by recurring and playing it every turn. The recursion costs 3, playing Oracle costs 5 = 8 mana spent... your opponent won't do much else that turn meaning that you're one turn further towards finding that other Goyf/Pithing Needle/Mystic Enforcer/whatsoever will win the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adan

ITF has just too many cards that will break your neck:
2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Pernicious Deed, 4 Counterbalance, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Intuition, Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, 1-2 Vedalken Shackles...
All these cards have to be shut off somehow, but that is obviously impossible.

While ITF certainly is not a good matchup, I don't see it that bad: just resolve a Counterbalance before he does, Needle Pernicious Deed and tempo-play him which is relatively easy now as you only have to counter his 1-2 Engineered Explosives and 1-2 Shackles. Postboard it gets a lot better for you as you gain access to Krosan Grip (and Trygon Predator) while he won't be bringing in much. If he's bringing in Krosan Grips against your Balances and Pithing Needles, that's fine too because he's reducing his threat quantity therewith as close to all his cards in the main are better than Krosan Grips against you.

As far as new tech is concerned, a card I've grown to really like lately is a 1off Enlightened Tutor: it increases your flexibility by allowing you to play a more diverse sideboard and some 1offs main (Oblivion Ring for instance) and more importantly acts as another Counterbalance (which is like your only way to victory in so many matchups). I've replaced a Pithing Needle with it which is in my opinion the most logical choice as the Tutor can still act as a pseudo-Needle when you really need it. I've also recently moved down to 16 lands to play more cantrips as with 17 or more lands I've always been flooded.

For reference, my build can be found here.
09-27-2008, 10:43 AM
Ophidian

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by raharu

Errrr, no. Perish is essentially a WoG in that match, which would fucking suck for me, as I only run 10 creatures in the 75 (Enforcers occasionally becomes MD Pithing Needles)

If you don't see how Perish wins the matchup.. well, I dunno what to say.

I pretty much spelled it out.. Hold em down with Counter/Top and play like a control deck. Brownie Points if you board out Nimble Mongoose for Meddling Mage.
09-27-2008, 10:46 AM
raharu

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

I wouldn't cut Predict for Dark Confidant because of several reasons:

Dark Confidant makes you splash a fourth colour. This reduces the stability of your manabase and prevents you from playing 2+ basics. This will lead to random losses and/or to harder games against stuff like recurring Wastelands, Back to Basics, Blood Moon & Co.. The point can be made that you can just Needle the former and counter the later, but why would you want to spend resources on not letting something resolve if you could just more or less ignore it if playing a better manabase anyway? You only have very limited answers when playing Threshold and therefore being able to ignore some of your opponent's threats is even more important than in other decks.
- I'm already playing 4c with Thoughtseizes main, which is why it doesn't bother me to 'go' to 4c, because I'm already there.
  
  Quote:
  
  Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
- Another major point in favour of Predict is that it draws the cards when you play it. Play it, draw two cards, see what's next. Compare this to Dark Confidant: you have to play him at sorcery speed, hope that he lives, and only then can you start drawing cards. Three turns after casting the Confidant will you have drawn as many cards as Predict has... now that's not very tempo-y, is it? If you play the deck more like a control deck with super efficient finishers (as I do), Predict still isn't bad either due to its instant-speed nature being more synergistic with low land counts and manaintensive CounterTop engine than Dark Confidant.

I'm aware of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Also, Dark Confidant isn't a reliable source of Card Advantage. It just has a huge target sign on its head and will close to always get handled immediately whereas Predict is not regarded as threat and will therefore always restock your hand. This is a huge point against Dark Confidant as you just need that Card Advantage badly because besides Counterbalance you're only making 1for1s and the occasional 1for2 which in the long run will cause you to run out of steam. For sure you can say that if they kill your Confidants your other guys will live, but unfortunately this is often not the case as more often than not your opponent has more removal than you have (targetable) dorks. You can then make the point that Counterbalance protects Dark Confidants for them to grow to a retarded CA-engine which obviously is true, but if you have CounterTop on-line, you're in quite a good position anyway. I'd rather have something that actually gets me through to the Counterbalance and/or the Top in the first place.

That too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

Minor points: Predict milling away chaff and raising graveyard count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

I actually pointed that out already. I do love Predict, but it seems like it's not doing enough. Damnit I hate conventional blue draw in Legacy. I think I'll test the Portents, but... wtf, ten cards at 2cmc is pretty shitty. Thirteen is too, but 13 > 10. Perhaps Esper Charm could work, but I really hate being cut off of draw by a fucking wasteland.

Yet another Tangent: I'm running a 18 land manabase at the moment, and it always seems like I have more lands than I want or need. Not exactly flooded, but it just feels like I have more lands than the curve really wants. For reference:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

I'm thinking -1 Tropical Island for an empty slot, and -1 Underground Sea for +1 Island. And maybe cut another land, down to 16. Not sure yet.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

I've been playing Portents over Predicts for a while and I've never really wanted to go back. Only having 10 2cc cards has never really been a problem. With the amount of library manipulation I run, I'm usually able to get a 2cc card on top if I need it there. Predict has proved too clunky for me. I seldom want to cast it turn 2 or 3, so it ends up clogging up my hand in the early game. I do miss having no cards that generate card advantage sans CB, but Portent seems to make the deck run just a little more smoothly.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by raharu

I'm thinking -1 Tropical Island for an empty slot, and -1 Underground Sea for +1 Island. And maybe cut another land, down to 16. Not sure yet.

I've been trying to put some basics in a 4c shell. It might very well be a pure waste of time and effort, because :

there's no point in simply fitting one basic island. So you're under the moon effect with your basic island, and then what ? You still have absolutely no way to win nor to remove the moon effect no matter what you do, because for that you'd need at least a basic forest, too.
fitting 3 basics (or more) = big trouble for color management in 4c+ lists. unless you're upping the land count, and then it starts to really not be worth it because that just means that many additional junk cards in 75-80 % of matches.
hence, i think only "2 basics" is a viable configuration if you want to put any. but then, what's the second color you want to have access to ? The only actual option is green, so you'll be able to play your threats, and, in games 2 and 3, Grip/Trygon Predator. Problem is, you still most likely lost G1, and even with Grip, winning G2 AND G3 is going to be an uphill battle, to say the least (don't forget they will bring in SB reinforcements too).

Hence, you might as well just accept the losses against moon effects and the like in exchange for the huge bonuses of running the best anti combo tools (FoW, Seize, CounterTop), the best removal (StP, Grip in the board), the best critters (Goyf, Confidant), and the best filtering effects (Brainstorm, Ponder) in the whole format, all in the same deck.

But if you want to try, I can only urge you to use the 1 Island + 1 Forest configuration of basics. It's the only viable one.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

there's no point in simply fitting one basic island. So you're under the moon effect with your basic island, and then what ? You still have absolutely no way to win nor to remove the moon effect no matter what you do, because for that you'd need at least a basic forest, too.

Under a Blood Moon and under attack by Wastelands the Island lets you play cantrips and find answers like more land, Needle on Waste, Blast/Bounce on Moon (if you don't run Blasts... here's another really good reason). Island and Forest is better yeah, but Island should be always the first basic. With an Island and the amount of cantrips Threshold plays you can find the solution to whatever problem you have. With only a Forest you can just play creatures but you have to topdeck them first.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Island should be always the first basic. With an Island and the amount of cantrips Threshold plays you can find the solution to whatever problem you have. With only a Forest you can just play creatures but you have to topdeck them first.

Oh, totally. I was not discussing that. I was not even thinking it would be ;)

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

2 island, 1 forest are my standards for every ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh i build :) ( i dont enjoy 4c/5c

Robert

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

This is an... I presume the most articulate adjective is awkward little tweak on threshold. It doesn't particularly solve any outstanding problems with the deck, but it seems like it'll do what I want it to do better.

Lands: 18
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Tropical Island x4
Tundra x3
Island x2
Nantuko Monastery x2

Creatures: 10
Nimble Mongoose x4
Tarmogoyf x4
Mystic Enforcer x2

Disruption: 10
Daze x3
Counterbalance x3
Force of Will x4

Hand Crafting: 14
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Perdict x3

Removal: 4
Swords to Plowshares x4

Other: 2
Life from the Loam x2
2x free slots.
Candidates: Volrath's Stronghold (with a black source crammed in, obviously), Oblivion Rings, Portent, cycling lands, a Forest and a Plains, Wasteland, Pithing Needle, another LftL, another Monastery, Solitary Confinement. Yeah, a few of the cards on that list are rather off the wall, but they are things to look at. It's safe to say that the Wastelands and cycling lands won't make the cut and that Volrath's Stronghold's need of an otherwise dead black source will kill it, but they're bound to get tested.

Well, at any rate, at the beginning of the post I mentioned that there were things that I wanted my 4c to do that I think this strange little list might do better. Those things would be:

1) Get threshold faster: I pretty much refuse to not play Mystic Enforcers, which require threshold to be of much use, and Nimble Mongeese are superfuckingdead against agro without thresh. Inasmuch, while getting threshold at an average of turn 5 or so is alright against an average field, but against agro it's a no-go, having 6 of 10 creatures useless is kinda... well, it's shitty.

2) Have a stronger late-game via a recursion engine: Yeah, that. LftL is nice because it makes the deck more resistant to mana-denial plans (although thrash most likely still rapes it. All their mana-denial is free or close to it. wtf). At any rate it's something nice to have in the face of recurring late-game Wastelands, so long as you can keep applying pressure. Recurring beaters is pretty sweet, at least. I think Crucible of Worlds could be better, but LftL is better with Brainstorm. And Counterbalance. And Threshold creatures. And Ponder, to an extent. Yeah. I think LftL just does more things for the deck than Crucible.

3) There was something else, but I forgot... Whoops.

Anyway, I'll be testing this for a while, albeit against low-tier decks.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Life from the Loam? Really? I'm not sure it's going to be that good here. First, Loam is generally used in situations where you're either trying to dredge a sizable chunk of your deck, or you're running cycling lands. Without the cycling land engine, Loam just feels weak.

Also, Loam does jack shit here against mana denial. You have no basic Forests, so if they keep you off green mana or somehow manage to sink all your Trops, Loam is useless.

It just seems like a poor choice here.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Yeah, if you want 2 cards that will help you get Thresh fast, play Mental Note. At least it instantly replaces itself and is a decent combat trick.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Eh. Note has been pretty shitty when I've played it. I'll see how this bit goes. I'm thinking of replacing the Deltas with Windswept Heaths and wedging in a Forest, but... I like to fetch Islands. Alot.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by raharu

Eh. Note has been pretty shitty when I've played it. I'll see how this bit goes. I'm thinking of replacing the Deltas with Windswept Heaths and wedging in a Forest, but... I like to fetch Islands. Alot.

I'm not saying that Note is good, just that it's better than LftL in threshold. In thresh you don't have the mana to spend each turn on a complex draw engine that you can't really abuse, since all it will do is thin your deck and keep Monastery Alive. Personally, I would rather play Armageddon if I was worried about the late game, or Worship, or something like that. AND those are outdated.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Nantuko Monastery in Threshold doesn't excite me particularly, but it looks viable at least.

Life from the Loam, however, has to go: it's a very awkward answer against early-game disruption, and your 4/4 First Strikers should not usually hit the graveyard. Either they do nothing against 5+/5+ creatures, or they lord over 3-/3- guys - remember, they swing into double Goose or Mishra and survive. As for removal, Plow doesn't get them in the graveyard, and if they get Wastelanded or Sinkhole'd you're happy that they didn't hit a coloured source instead.

I'd definitely play a pair or even three Pithing Needles, as they don't put further strain on your coloured mana have a certain neat synergy with Monastery (opponent tries to get rid of it with Deed or Shackles? Just drop the Needle before activating Monastery). The remaining slots I'd fill with Spell Snares.

Re: [DTB] UGw Threshold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Nantuko Monastery in Threshold doesn't excite me particularly, but it looks viable at least.

No it doesn't. It has been obsoleted by the release of Tarmogoyf.
It WAS viable as a sideboard choice against the mirror because it blocked Goose and Werebear to death, but now we have Goyf which still survives and kills it. And before Tarmogoyf, there was Jotun Grunt which has also been sick in the mirrormatch and superior to Nantuko Monastery.

Quote:

Life from the Loam, however, has to go.

Absolutely.

Quote:

I'd definitely play a pair or even three Pithing Needles, as they don't put further strain on your coloured mana have a certain neat synergy with Monastery (opponent tries to get rid of it with Deed or Shackles? Just drop the Needle before playing Tarmogoyf and Mongeese). The remaining slots I'd fill with Spell Snares.

A little correction (I may not use red, right?).

Well, Spell Snares are a littlebit specific, I'd run either more Counterbalance or Oblivion Rings.

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