Its hard to say whether or not Reforge the Soul is good if you didn't cast it. It has a marginal utility against blue because of the Miracle cost.
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Its hard to say whether or not Reforge the Soul is good if you didn't cast it. It has a marginal utility against blue because of the Miracle cost.
I actually did playtest it maindeck the days going into the IQ for awhile, but I switched back to the regular build since I actually found myself pitching it to Chrome Mox most of the time or just going for Burning Wish or Belcher. I meant that I didn't actually see how good it was as a Diminishing Returns replacement. I wasn't comfortable playing it maindeck in an IQ just yet.
And why belcher over ad nauseam for such a tournament?
I haven't played Ad Nauseam for awhile so I didn't even consider playing it. I was actually set on Esper Stoneblade for the event but when I saw 5+ burn decks being sleeved up before the event, I kinda decided to play Belcher instead.
For the record, I played (my tournament report will be up tonight)
Round 1 - Burn - 2-0
Round 2 - RUG Delver -2-1
Round 3 - Maverick - 2-1
Round 4 - Affinity - ID
Round 5 - RUG Delver - ID
Top 8 - Maverick - 2-1 (same guy as round 3)
Top 4 - Maverick (my brother) - Scoop my brother into top 2 since I'm qualified and he wasn't.
And @mistercakes - I didn't board at all except in Round 2, where it was -4 Seething Song +4 Pyroblast
Oh, and decklist is pretty standard.
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Deathmark
1 Goblin War Strike
Manamorphose should have been Desperate Ritual but I couldn't find any (since the +1 is much more important now that Reforge the Soul is in the SB).
I have just recently encountered this deck, and luckily our card pool had all the components needed for this deck. So far, i've found this deck to be incredibly fun and consistent. I do have a concern about this deck that I'm kind of stuck with.
based on the games I've played with belcher, I've basically summarized the mull conditions for a standard 1-land belcher build before sideboarding:
- hands without a kill condition (belcher or warrens)
- hands with kill conditions, but nowhere near the required mana to cast it
- hands with empty the warrens that can create less than 10 goblin tokens
my concern is that i am still kind of stumped with what the mull conditions are AFTER boarding. Is it as simple as keeping any hand with autumn's veil/xantid swarm/pyroblast? i have a feeling it's not as simple as that, and my tests with the sideboard so far have been inconsistent to say the least (which shows my total lack of experience with it)
can anyone shed some light into this to help a belcher newb like me?
Concerning the first part of your question i could say that you are right. With the exception of question 2 (kill cond with anymana generation or very poor) the other one could be kept i you have an idea of what your opo is playing. On quetion 1, the are some decks (for example burn) that gives you let's say 2 turn for waiting before going off. If you are on the draw you'll have 3 additional cards (that if you have no cantrips in hand). For question 3 you must consider that some decks, again, such as burn, RUG and simil can't deal consistentely with 8-10 tokens turn one (not to mention if can go BW----> Goblin War Strike).Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Finally i dont know your list but BW IS CONSIDERED A KILL CONDITION. The same is valid for Reforge the Soul if you run it.
Post board things are a bit difficult, but it's wisheable to see a hate card among the opening 7. The other six cards follow the same rules than g1. I mean suppose this:
1 Xantind swarm
1 BW
1 LED
1 Land Grant
1 Tinder Wall
1 Desperate ritual
1 Manamorphosis
I¡ll keep this one.
1 Pyroblast
1 EtW
1 Lotus petal
2 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Burning wish
Probalby i'll mull this one.
@GoldenCid
Oh yes, how silly of me to forget Burning Wish.
Ok, so 1 hate card + rule of thumb for the remaining 6 cards seems like a good starting point. Thank you for the insight.
I have yet to try Reforge the Soul. How does it fare in your experience?
Also, I'm still undecided whether to run Xantid Swarm or Autumn's Veil in the SB. On one hand, Xantid Swarm can be answered by removal. On the other, Autumn's Veil essentially requires you to have 1 extra green mana to combo off - which can get tricky at times.
Finally, I've seen people swear by Pyretic Ritual over Manamorphose. Is the 1 extra mana really more important than the cantrip?
@Reforge: Some post above i wrote my experience (short) about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Swarm vs Autum: That is the question!! I dont know how to answer. Swarm answer every instant hate card including trap while autum doesnt. But auntum does not suffer vs spot removal. Nowadays i run the bee + 4 REB / Pyroblast but it's just a meta call i guess, trap is very played even by those decks that lack removal and swarm relies on the incertidumbre fo the opo about keeping or not his removal.
Finalley i run both ritual and morphose so i have not that dicotomy. :cool:
I'm curious how you are able to fit both Pyretic Rit and Manamorphose in the list. If you don't mind, may I see your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I run Seething Song, Desperate Ritual, Rite of Flame as my rituals, while I have Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probe as my cantrips.
Here you are:Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [U] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M11] Pyretic Ritual
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AVR] Reforge the Soul
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
Note that it's a moxless list, maybe that's why you can't fit 16 rituals. This list is which i had best results with. Sometimes, i must admit, want to have a mox as "initial spark" but as i said it happens sometimes anyway i have 12 "sparks".
Any comment you have is welcomed!
Interesting... I'm going to give a moxless list a try as well. Thanks for the info!
Eh... you don't want to cut Mox. Its too important. Especially with access to Reforge the Soul, you don't want to miss out on perpetual resources. They provide additional attempts and allow you to effectively play around hate. Land Grant, Chrome Mox, and Burning Wish in the same hand allow you to actually get rid of a bear, or piece of permanent hate if it comes out before you can effectively go off.
Also.. no love for Mirri's Guile? I've been playing it as a 1'of in PSI and its fucking fantastic. I set up so many attempts with it, find protection, business, rituals, IMS, etc. It can serve the same function in this deck if people just cut down on unnecessary Wishboard cards. For example, Goblin War Strike and Grapeshot are rarely wished for. Why play them when you forgo 2 sideboard spaces that help you in your hardest matchup? From that board I'd cut:
-1 Ingot Chewer
-1 Goblin Warstrike
-1 Grapeshot
+1 Autumn's Veil
+1 Taiga
+1 Mirri's Guile
Honestly I don't know why people haven't tried playing lands in the post-board. The conventional thought is that the more lands you play, the worse Belcher gets. This is true for most matchups but not for control. I'm actually boarding in Bayou and Taiga in PSI atm against control decks because you really need the perpetual resources if you are going to go off through a countermagic wall. If they have Force/Flusterstorm, etc. you have to have a solution or you just roll over and die. Extra perpetual mana sources makes extra Land Grants perpetual resources instead of literally dead draws. Also, its not like adding in an extra Taiga hurts Belcher much. You're still likely to do 20 damage with 2 Taiga in the deck (you should see one about every 25 cards and you only need to hit 10 nonland to get a kill with mountains) and the deck has enough mana to go off again. Control doesn't often have an answer to a resolved Belcher.. you just top deck mana sources until you win so a misfire doesn't equal a loss unless they have you on a fast clock. Further, more land means you have a better chance at a second attempt if you do misfire because you are more likely to have a land as an IMS. Just food for the thought.
Also, I've said this before but Pulpficition played a great list a while back that ran maindeck Blood Moon. I wonder if thats a viable option again considering that the DTB is mostly non-red, fetchland playing decks.
Cantrips, moxes, rituals are the variable slots among the list. All of them have strengths and weakneeses.
Sure but consider what you forgo by cutting IMS's. The deck can take different accelerants in and out but non-land IMS's are the scarcest resource that Belcher has in that regard because the business spells are not particularly interchangable, though perhaps that changes with the advent of Reforge the Soul as not everyone is playing it in their MD.
Sorry for my ignorance but "IMS" is?
Initial Mana Source. ie. SSG, ESG, Petal, Land Grant, Taiga, and Chrome Mox.
I get your point and appreciate it. Chrome mox is, for me, the most "high risk/high reward" card in the deck. I mean, for instance it could be a powerful IMS pithching an useless burning wish and / or EtW in your hand, that's correct. Moreover you can simply cast it for increase the storm count and yes it's a perpetual mana suorce. On this last point i want to ask whenever it's "perpetual". Most of times you tap it, sac a petal, remove a guide and so on for winning. Seeing it untapped again is rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
On the other hand, i demands to "loose" a card for working as IMS that decrease the storm count and, in my opinion makes more difficult to choose the initial hand.
I'm not saying that mox is bad, just describing it's pro and cons to get a good result from this disicussion.
PS: Have you built a list with Reforge the Soul, i simply can fit one that like me...
I've actually been planning on running the following sideboard next time I roll Belcher.
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Forest
Getting a Waste-proof land is pretty hot versus the current crop of blue decks, as you can sit there and eat counterd with test utumn's Veil. Running 4 Probe and 4 manamorphose means that I have the storm for tendrils, and I would rather have returns than reforge most of the time. Still kind of leery about no Pyroclasm, but Teeg and Thalia are turn 2 cards...
@GoldenCid
I wouldn't say that situation is rare at all. You don't always go off or else this deck would be DTB. Sometimes, you play Belcher and pass the turn. Sometimes you play Belcher and miss your activation. Sometimes Belcher gets countered and you go into topdeck mode with the resources you have available. Granted, Belcher has to go all in with its hand to have an effective combo turn so it doesn't really abuse its perpetual resources as well as other storm combo decks do. Compared to SI, another glass house, you only have to invest a ritual and a D4 to combo as you get to keep your perpetual resource for another attempt if this one fails, meaning you only trade 2 cards for your opponents Force. However, if you invest 5 to 7 cards into one attempt, you lose the power of Chrome Mox and Land Grant.
I know its unconventional but perhaps a list without Burning Wish would be better than traditional Belcher builds. Burning Wish takes like 6 mana to play EtW. Why not just play the 4th copy of both Reforge and EtW so you pay less for these cards and then raise the business count with Spoils of the Vault?
Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Reforge the Soul
X Spoils of the Vault (2?)
Spoils synergizes quite nicely with Reforge the Soul as you can decide what the best target is after you've seen like 14+ cards total. I can't remember the last time it actually killed me in testing in Belcher builds. It can find the LED you need to activate Belcher or you can float mana off LED to find the correct business spell to get the kill. Also, with 4'ofs as your win conditions, you can just choose the best one with mana floating. This opens up the possibility of actual post-board transformations instead of siding in a mere 7 cards (max) that only ever beat an unexperienced or unprepared control player. Xantid Swarm/Pyroblast doesn't get there in reality.
With more than twice as much space, the SB could consist of something like...
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Pyroblast
2 Past in Flames
2 Noxious Revival
1 Mirri's Guile
Carpets allow you to blank spell Pierces and Dazes while allowing you to set up combo turns with multiple business spells, which involve setup via Past in Flames, Noxious Revival, and Mirri's Guile. Past in Flames and Carpet of Flowers work wonders together as it gives you 2 business spells for the price of one provided you have a EtW or Reforge in your graveyard. Autumn's Veil can protect the entire combo turn, especially from stuff like Flusterstorm that Pyroblast cannot. It can also occasionally draw out multiple countermagic if your opponent is aiming their countersuite at your rituals, in which case you can do something like respond to a Spell Pierce with a ritual, which gets Dazed, which both get 1'uped by Veil.
Mirri's Guile is kind of like a pseudo-5th Carpet of Flowers. It helps you rebuild effectively because a deck with more business (14 in the pre-board and 16 post-board) can take advantage of perpetual resources, namely Carpet of Flowers, to grind out the opponent and run them out of answers. Noxious Revival functions as a fantastic method of getting back a Belcher EoT to surprise an opponent, though it can also get back LEDs for activations, or obviously the low-investment Miracle combo turn with Reforge the Soul, as well as get you a protection spell or stop the opponent from playing Surgical Extraction on a key spell.
Pyroblast shouldn't need much explanation. I'd think its the next best thing to Autumn's Veil as a protection spell.
In regards to the Burning Wish board being able to answer hate and provide flexibility... I rarely see a Belcher player beat a resolved Chalice @ 1 or a hatebear, or a Leyline, etc. It just doesn't happen as often as we'd like to believe. I think its best to race decks that try shit like that and instead forgo the marginal utility of Burning Wish (its a way better card in TES imo) and make room in the board for a legitimate sideboard plan. What are thoughts on this approach?
Hey guys,
first of all I want to say that I'm amazed by the friendly tone in this threat. It gives your discussions a really comfortable atmosphere!
Second, I want to thank you for the recent discussions. I'm planning on picking this deck up in some near future and the points you discussed (especially about ISMs) were really helpful.
I'll write a report for about the next tourney I attend with Belcher.
On a different note:
I wonder why most people cut Street Wraith to replace it with Gitaxian Probe.
I myself would cut Manamorphose for Probes, and leave the Ghosts in there. This reduces the deck to 52 cards virtually.
I know that manamorphose gives +1 storm, whil SWs don't, but then again, you can't just cycle manamorphosis in situation where you are unsure wether or not you can go off. I mean: the manafixing abilty never made a difference to me, while blindly cycling into IMS is a common move of mine. SWs do this job better than Morphosis.
Any point that I'm missing here?