Blue also lets you play Llawan squid queen as sideboard tech
Which you can fetch up with Recruiter and lock out fishies or any creatures with a Painter in play
http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd8...lidEmpress.jpg
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Blue also lets you play Llawan squid queen as sideboard tech
Which you can fetch up with Recruiter and lock out fishies or any creatures with a Painter in play
http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd8...lidEmpress.jpg
I have been experimenting with running a 1 of rest in peace mainboard for the eldrazi/graveyard match ups with a lot of success. Has anyone else been using anything for game 1 against eldrazi decks?
Seems like a good idea
It fits the bill of "slam a hate permanent that locks out or beats our opponent"
I am on mono red and my g1 plan against Emrakul decks is get out Bridge and beat em down with 1/3s and three mana 1/1s
Doesn't seem necessary. Sneak and Show folds game one to a resolved bridge and I don't think 12 post is a big enough prescence to justify maindeck hate that makes our own welders not as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo687
Doesn't seem necessary. Sneak and Show folds game one to a resolved bridge and I don't think 12 post is a big enough presence to justify maindeck hate that makes our own welders not as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo687
I am considering going back to imperial painter recently, and I would very probably still stick to mono-red because I used to have a lot of success with it in my local store.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
However I am also very busy these few days so I cannot put my thought into test.
But here is something I am thinking:
May add martyr of ashes mainboard.
Maybe will leave all bridges in sideboard, it is not efficient against omnitel and pyromancer tokens.
Maybe play relic of progenitus mainboard, but still not sure of this.
Hi goblinz, what you are referring to is painter circa 2012. Mono red with bridges in the board, lightning bolts in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=58700
Honestly this is a good place to start as a new painter player. I payed this build back then and started bringing in bridges into the main along with Jandax and never looked back. There are literally so many decks that are just stone cold to a bridge game one.
Update: after the GP and scg results it seems utterly irresponsible to not have a better omni plan, both main and side. We are at an advantage being already situated with 6-8 blasts. The eldrazi must be dealt with though, I'd be more inclined to cut welders and run RIP's rather than adding crypts. While the crypt is nice for eldrazi RIP hoses tarmogoyf, DRS, delve, dredge, among others with the effort.
I think the best answers to omnitell in shortcake are :
-play 8 blasts between main and side
-build a sideboard with more hatebears (thalia/canonist/spirit of the labyrinth)
-possibly play a maindeck canonist like jack was doing a while ago
-maybe add rip/helm in sideboard so after board you are still playing a 2 card combo
between blasts hatebears and bridges we should be ok anyway.
Fun story : against an omnitell opponent i had rest in peace in play and he knew i had helm of obedience in hand. Obviously he can't show and tell in this situation or he loses on the spot. I draw a simian spirit guide so i decide to tap out for something irrelevant, he casts show and tell, i show helm and kill him exiling my spirit guide XD
I know his list, I played a very similar as his since 2011. And unlike others I am not that happy with maindeck bridge except in a era when there were tons of sneak show. I find I don't need rely on bridges in most match-up where bridges are considered as great or something, for example dnt because I have more removals and sweepers to deal their fragile creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
About RIP, that is why I consider relic in the main in terms of mono red now. Actually I always play relic in my build, I board it against graveyard centered decks and also thresh or sneakshow. The con is that it may be slow against dredge or reanimator some times but still have it job done in more cases. Now it hoses dig and can help you win omnitel game one with combo, at worst it is cycling. And the other thing is that relic does not totally contradict to your welder.
I used to play a one-of tormods crypt a year or so ago when show and tell was super popular. But as Mapson pointed out, bridge hoses them just as well and then you can just win with Jaya. Blood moon is so good against 12 post that I've never really had trouble with that deck. The only super troublesome eldrazi deck is Omnitell as they can get around a bridge easily with cunning wish into bounce. In general though, eldrazi decks are why Jaya will always have a home in the main. If you played the shortcake version of the deck you could consider just running one copy of bridge to tutor for. Also realize that, in most cases, bridge hoses dredge as well if you can get your hand size down fast enough. The biggest benefit of bridge right now is against goyf and true-name nemesis, which are both seeing play a good amount. I would have a hard time cutting them.
As for relic in the main, it does cantrip but you can only really use it once. The benefit of crypt is that, with a welder, you can keep nuking the opponent's graveyard over and over. RiP of course is a problem as a nombo with welder. Right now I'm running a crypt and a containment priest in my board. I consider running a second containment priest but just can't find the room. And it also doesn't interact that well with our welders.
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Leo actually beat me to the punch on what I've been tinkering with to gain the small percentage points in the current meta and taking into account recent results.
This is what I've been playing. It's not really that groundbreaking, as it is more just a rejiggering of the 75 based on what I expect to see:
Shortcake:
7 Sol
5 Fetch
4 Mountain
2 'Teau
1 Furnace
4 Recruiter
4 Painter
3 Welder
2 Simian
1 Magus
1 Jaya
1 Revoker
1 Canonist
4 Stone
4 Moon
2 Top
2 Bridge
3 Petal
2 Tutor
7 Blast
Side:
4 Firebolt
1 tutor
1 reb
2 koth
1 crypt
1 rip
1 thorn
1 3 sphere
1 hedge mage
1 bridge
1 explosives
Obviously the only differences is moving the EE to the side like the ratchet bomb of old. I love its utility, but having 6 ways to find canonist game 1 with the expected rise of omnitell seems like its better. I also dropped the sphere of law since the 8th reb will come in so much. If I face burn I guess I'll just hope i can overload like the days of old. We'll see how this goes.
This is essentially the list I have built at the moment as well (-1 fire bolt in sb). I intend to test against URb delver and omni and see how things pan out.
The URb delver and omni create two different tensions for the deck, tempo burn vs control. When played well the URb delver is similar to cruise delver which painter had issues with. Largely because it's hard to combo through a burn player. Although their mana base is weaker to bloodmoon.
Omni puts us into the hard control role, theoretically we can just counter everything they do but the game can be very fragile at times, often one misstep and your up against double counter show and tell.
I do agree that canonist in the main is a good place to start against omni, it's even good against other stuff to. I have played non goblin welder lists before with success and will look to test a RIP version.
Well first small run-through was a success. There was obviously some luck along the way, but if you're always lucky is it even luck at that point anymore lol?
I was able to 4-0 last nights daily against post, miracles, bahra on taxcake,and digblade. It wasn't really due to the changes, but post board it felt like I always had multiple blasts at the ready, aka the 8 felt really nice. Too bad I can't really tell if I ever drew the 8th but considering that pretty much everyone is blue it's a good start.
Other random games I beat another miracles and lost to sneak. I was also able to 2-0 two different ant players in other matches by dropping canonist game 1, which I hope helps vs omni (haven't played yet) the only other switch I'm looking at is moving either the thorn or 3sphere to a second canonist, although I am concerned about changing the small percentages against some decks with opening hands like sol+thorn or times where thorn or sphere are the only cards you'd be able to tutor for and drop the next turn.
If Omnitell is the concern, I certainly wouldn't cut a Trinisphere as it is insane against them, but I definitely like the idea of having more than 1 Canonist in the 75, and probably more than 2. I don't really like cutting Thorn though because E-Tutor off of Lotus Petal into t2 thorn is pretty relevant, and we don't always get to have 2-3 mana on turn 1 and 3 mana on turn 2.
EDIT: Also, Canonist is a bad play to rely on for turn 1, or even turn 2, just because access to white mana in particular is far from a guarantee.
Honestly 3 sphere does not feel like where I want to be against omni. My counters that literally destroy them cost 1 Mana, why make them cost 3? thorn, sure that's workable.Quote:
Originally Posted by RingoDeathStarr
Canonist is a fine turn one or two play when you have 7 white lands and 3 lotus.
And yes, as jack iluded to, game one canonist against ANT is pretty good.
Ha. I've never stopped playing canonist main. Let me just also say that sequencing it so that your opponent can't play a spell without you going off in response with canonist on board has won me multiple games. I have a hard time cutting sphere online because there is still enough burn to make it worth while. It is also very relevant against young pyromancer strategies.
I'm still on 3 leylines SB and am having to consider cutting those for another canonist, and probably another piece of grave hate and tax spell like 3sphere. They are just so good against ANT that I struggle with that decision. Between thorn and 3sphere, which do most people find most helpful. I would lean toward the thorn as it is easier to drop on turn 1 and has less effect on us.
Also, has anyone thought about 1-2 Lodestone Golem or is he just too slow?
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I think golem is asking to much, particularly when he dies to swords and bolt among other things after you have sunk 4 mana into him.
So with one canonist main my side looks like:
3 Firebolt
1 tutor
1 reb
2 koth
1 canonist
1 rip
1 thorn
1 3 sphere
1 hedge mage
1 bridge
1 explosives
1 sphere of law
I'm still looking to test sphere against all the pyromancer decks to see if it is good enough or if it should just be another fire bolt.
On another note I've had a lot of success with sudden shock.
Sorry for just hijacking the thread, but Taxcake is 100x better than the other names that have been thrown around for R/W DnT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Sorry for assisting in the hijack, but it's totally true. taxcake>>>>>shortcake
Maybe as a name for red white death and taxes. But no way in hell is the name better than strawberry shortcake for our weird little pile of shitty cards. Plus it's a little too late now, it stuck :) Just my biased two cents haha.
Well, after unknowingly selling my Recruiters at the Indy Open back in Feb. (made me totally sick when I realized it), I've been able to pick up another set. So hopefully I should be jumping back into the driver's seat soon.
Unknowingly?! How'd that happen lol
I had a little binder of stuff I was gonna trade to SCG and they ended up in there. When we were back at the hotel, I was switching stuff around to get ready for Modern on Sunday, so I stuck them in the little binder as just somewhere to shove them. Then, in between rounds on Sunday, I went and handed them my binder and told them I was selling all of it, not remembering I had put the Recruiters in there and so really wasn't paying attention to what was being pulled out. :tongue:
It occurs to me that if Omnitell is the real deal now, the decks that beat it are probably BUG Delver, decks with lots of counter magic, and Jund. In 4 round tournaments, it may be worth devoting many slots to beating Omnitell, but that it might be better to focus on possible gaps in the preparation of the metagame for Omnitell in larger tournaments.
Theoretically, vs. BUG and discard, Goblin Welder's stock improves, and against Omnitell itself and heavy counters, REB improves as well. Ethersworn canonist should definitely be a bigger role as well, but perhaps it is just worth being a deck that is insanely hateful towards blue and discard, and hope that our best existing attributes run into people preparing heavily for Omnitell. Our matchup against them isn't totally abysmal with some added focus, and it seems as if we might be well prepared against their foils. Just a thought, kinda drunk though.
Painter isn't scared of Omnitell at all really. The only thing is that you have to have a way to get Emrakul out of the yard in response to his trigger. Other than that.. 6+ Main deck REBs is really solid against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RingoDeathStarr
No offense, but you haven't played the MU that much then. Since we can't combo against them and we don't put on that much pressure, they can sit and sculpt their hand to the perfect 7 before trying to go off. I certainly wouldn't count on a blast or two to stop them. I attempted the daily last night and round one was paired against one of the Japanese lists (with red for creature removal and young pyromancer...Shouta's list). Needless to say it didn't go well. Game one I had canonist plus blast in hand but he probed me and S&T emrakul into play directly. Second game he dropped turn 2 young pyro. I dropped blockers, including containment priest, he burned out blockers and still S&T through a blast into omniscience into digs into emrakul. It was a nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky984
This list plays electrickery, pyroclasm, and bolts. The hate bear strategy is not a good one. I think we are getting splash damage from D&T having game against them. The only good thing about the Japanese lists is that they are only playing 4-5 islands. So a T1 blood moon is better against them.
I think the tax artifacts will end up being important against them. Unfortunately, in my limited experience with 3sphere, it seems to hurt us quite a bit a well. I just don't know what else to do.
For reference, here's Shouta's list:
Omni-Tell
Shouta Yasooka
8th Place at Grand Prix on 4/18/2015
Legacy
Creatures (2)
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Lands (18)
5 Island
2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
Spells (40)
4 Omniscience
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Impulse
4 Spell Pierce
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell
Sideboard
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Electrickery
1 Firemind's Foresight
1 Flusterstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Release the Ants
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Through the Breach
1 Wipe Away
1 Pyroclasm
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I totally agree with Drude. Burn is a very hard match up, that you can deal with a good side. But Omni-tell is the hardest. Nearly unbeattable. I've never beat omni-tell with that deck.
our deck isn't agressive, playing threath mean that you must tap your mana, you have to fetch for your key cards (like canonist or crypt), all that avoiding their counterspells.
while your're fighting slowly, they just have to pay 2 or 3 mana to win.
OmniTell pilot here. What you want to have in your deck list against us is a 1of MD Relic of Progenitus combined with a tutor/filtering/cantrip effect, such as Trinket Mage or SDT to find it "fast enough". Mill OmniTell, in response to Emrakul reshuffle trigger activate the Relic with a counter ready for our C.Wish->Trickbind. EDIT: Alternatively, 1x Laboratory Maniac to mill yourself for the win. Bonus points for tutoring it with Imperial Recruiter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonk
Post-board, Trinisphere and Canonist will shut off our Ants win con but not Emrakul. Ensnaring Bridge will shut off our Emrakul but not Ants. Even then, those are only minor delays until we can get a C.Wish->bounce spell. If your plan is to play Grindstone first, then put Servant into play from our SnT, we can Dig for the instant Ants win con in response to Grindstone activation. We can also make sure SnT resolves with help from Boseiju. Surgicaling or Extirpating our SnT is one of the best ways to win against us, but Ru is ill-equipped at getting SnT into the gy in the first place, supposing that the OmniTell pilot has the patience to wait for Boseiju before going off. Therefore, the best g2-g3 strategy for most Painter builds would be mulliganing into gy hate (preferably Torpor Orb or Leyline of the Void because those are the fastest to land & activate and both hit the Emrakul trigger), then trying to go off as fast as possible (hopefully with 1 blast as protection) -all the while playing around Spell Pierce.
If you would be willing to dedicate any SB slots into this MU, Vendilion Clique in response to SnT, Wipe Away to target Omniscience and Iona or Tidespout Tyrant off of our SnT are some of the options. None of them are 100% proof. Lab Maniac to mill yourself for the win (without needing any gy hate) is also a solid SB option, since OmniTell does not really run any creature removal spells, only C.Wish->bounce. Bonus: Imperial Recruit tutors it.
OmniTell still might have won that game. If they got an Omniscience into play off the SnT, then in response to your Helm activation C.Wish->Firemind's Foresight, getting C.Wish, Impulse and Brainstorm. Impulse for a big cmc card, Brainstorm it on top of the deck, then C.Wish->Release the Ants and kill you with your Helm trigger still on the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
Ive noticed most Omni players have moved away from EtI. Is there simply a meta change that created this or is the new deck just more consistent?
@Karhumies " What you want to have in your deck list against us is a 1of MD Relic of Progenitus combined with a tutor/filtering/cantrip effect, such as Trinket Mage or SDT to find it "fast enough". Mill OmniTell, in response to Emrakul reshuffle trigger activate the Relic with a counter ready for our C.Wish->Trickbind." So you want us to have 3 cards in play (PS, GS, and a GY hate card) plus a counter in hand...plus 2 mana up. No way is this a viable strategy due to your speed and counters IMO.
I'm still on board with the E Cannonist & Blast plan, we have to go for a damage win and id almost even side out the combo entirely.
It's really not that bad guys.... You have 6 main deck Red Blasts... Recruiter into Jaya.. Main Deck Ensnaring Bridge for Emrakul.
Game 1 is a loss about every time but 2-3 are perfectly winable especially with Canonist and Tormod's. I've played A LOT of painter... It's really not that bad.
Regarding EtI:Quote:
Originally Posted by Uroborian
EtI is a dead card without Omniscience or Dream Halls in play. We have basically dropped the Dream Halls in favor of 4x Dig Through Time. DTT can resolve even before Omni hits the table, and if Omni is already on the table, it's "good enough" at hitting C.Wish or Emrakul or second DTT or another cantrip to keep the chain going without us needing EtI. Consequently, most of the OmniTell lists are not running Impulse->EtI/Emrakul anymore, either.
Regarding GY Hate in the main:
I edited my post after writing it, mentioning that Lab maniac might be more useful than gy hate. You get the option of milling yourself for the win regardless of our Emrakul triggers.
Regarding Canonist:
E.Canonist slows us down considerably, but it's not enough by itself to stop us. You will need blasts to back it up. And the problem with those Blasts is our Boseiju to push SnT through.
Example:
One turn: SnT->Omniscience
During your turn DTT to find Emrakul (alternatively C.Wish->Eladamri's Call, delaying us 1 turn)
Next turn: "easycast" Emrakul.
You simply don't put up a fast enough clock to kill us even if we only play one card per turn. So you really need the Blasts.
Canonist used to be even worse before we dropped EtI, but we can still play through it.
This is a key play. Jaya + E.Canonist is great at locking us out from the Omniscience plan. BUT we can still SnT straight into Emrakul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky984
@macky: I will say that I was okay with the MU before the Japanese build came out. Before that we could drop hate bears and protect with blasts and usually get there. Now that they have efficient creature removal, an alt win con with pyromancer or rabble master, and a way to see what hate we have in store for them, it's not that great anymore. If you are playing against a good Omnitell player it's tough. Not unwinnable, but tough. I wi say that I felt the Omnitell player I faced last night had all the right cards at all the right times, but they can do a really good job of manipulating their draws as well with the 20+ cantrips and draw spells at their disposal.
@karhumies: trying to combo off is somewhat futile. Also we don't at blue for lab maniac and we would have to kill ourselves, have lab maniac on the table and then somehow instantly draw a card to trigger maniac. Canonist into play with show and tell and then blast the omniscience is still our best play, but if they see it coming they will just wait for the Emrakul and drop that directly. Also, many of the newest lists do play one of impulse to get with firemind's foresight and combo out with release the ants.
I really wish red had a chill effect for blue spells.
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If there was a "chill" for Blue... That could be one of the best cards in Legacy... LolQuote:
Originally Posted by drude1
A white card which answers both Omni and Emrakul off a SnT would be good old Oblivion Ring. Against Omni there is a chance to Dig in response and to go off with Ants or just C.Wish->Trickbind the EtB trigger, but against SnT into Emrakul it's spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Thalia does provide a "chill effect". It's one of D&T's best cards against OmniTell. Hate Bear removal is a big problem for OmniTell, which is why many pilots are running Massacre and/or Slaughter Pact in the SB.
The problem with Thalia is that she has legs so can be bolted or massacred. I think canonist is just better, especially since she is an artifact so if she is killed with a bolt we could potentially sling her back in with a welder. We do have thorn and 3sphere at our disposal which do the same thing. They just aren't as one-sided as a red "chill" would be.
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I think I'm going to put away my painter deck for awhile. Played 6 rounds of legacy tournament today at my LGS and I got destroyed. :cry:
Round 1: Grixis Delver (0-2)
Round 2: Jund (2-0)
Round 3: Omnitell (0-2)
Round 4: Omnitell (0-2)
Round 5: Merfolk (2-0)
Round 6: Omnitell (0-2)
Keep your head up Nathan. I wouldn't call that getting destroyed. Stil beat jund and fish. And losing 0-3 to omni isn't to out of the ordinary, as its picked up in popularity and we're still figuring out reliable game plans.
New plan against omni. Fresh from the bottom of the barrel:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...spx?name=DRACO