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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
@Bob,
You're thinking about troll ascetic in the wrong way. Statistically speaking you get Thrun off of a Greensun zenith more than you naturally cast him and we have therapies to push through counter spells, so the fact that Thrun is uncounterable is rarely relevant. So in the end Ascetic is just a cheaper Thrun. If you don't run equipment then Thrun being a bigger clock is relevant, but they both carry swords in the same manner. So if Ascetic is a cheaper Thrun (and is a resilient threat at the three drop (unlike knight etc)) then you can cut Thrun and then play siege rhino as your 4 drop beater for the life gain and trample.
Thrun doesn't make Ascetic unnecessary, Ascetic can make Thrun unecessary :P
I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)
@rubble, I'm a man of consistency. If I'm playing Stoneforge mystic I'm building my deck around her and I'm playing 4. That's 8 creatures I'm happy to sac my turn 1 therapy to on turn 2.
That's 8 creatures that trade favourably with nearly all removal spells (only vet with a STP is a sad panda)
That's 8 creatures that transition me to the mid-late game (SFM is a great speed bump to keep your opponent occupied)
SFM mystic is also a green sun zenith of sorts, fitting in the curve at 2, 5, and 7 while fetching disruption, removal, card draw, life gain or a resilient threat.
Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet. SFM gives you a great way of mitigating that while still being a great card to top deck turn 29.
Regarding what equipment to run, when I run 4 SFM I run 3 equipment always. We don't have brainstorm to shuffle them back. I don't run Jitte cause it interferes with our Deeds and SoFaI is removal anyway. It's not like we are short of ways of dealing with small creatures..
It's important as well that the equipment isn't dead against combo because you're dedicating a lot of cards in your deck to SFM (that said the other cards you would have played instead would likely be just as useful against combo and SFM is cheaper and sacs to therapy and diabolic intent while fetching something at least slightly relevant)
I run SoFaI for the card advantage, removal and the pressure (I just raced a turn 2 reanimated Iona set on white through two force of will because my second diabolic intent resolved fetching my SoFaI to swing for the win)
I run SoFaF as gaining tempo while playing disruptive cards and attacking their in hand is the best way for us to combat combo, the protection from green is relevant against elves and the black against Marit Lage.
BSK because it's a resilient threat (notice a theme?) life gain and makes people swords to plowshares your SFM when you know you'll be hard casting your BSK in a few turns anyway.
So yea, I'm a huge advocate of her if you haven't noticed...
Thank you for explaining your decision making and your choices, your response is very well thought. I'm kinda new to sfm, I'm trying her because all the people here have some kind of love affair with her. I couldn't agree more on the resiliency of the creature base, and the capabilities of baby troll. I'll try sofi instead of jitte, because as you said we have plenty of options for removal.
I'm kind of skeptical about sofaf because I don't think I'll be able to make space in the deck, although it is nice against combo and goyfs
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
SFM sucks balls vs. anything running discard/Cabal Therapy though. If only I had a buck for every time I pulled that trick, lol.
For some reason noone ever sees it coming. Silly people.
Haha isn't this the truth!
But against us, it isn't that big of a deal. We still have the mystic left over to use for what ever purpose we see fit, we are the only deck that can fetch back equipments with ewit (maverick?) and one of the few decks that can regurarly cast SFM and her equipment in the same turn :)
Finally the decks that run therapy, storm (don't care about the equipment) pyro delver (can be a pain but at least mystic speed bumps pyro and the tokens while we get removal) and the mirror (lol you're already having fun here)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
The odd thing here being that I'd be on Manaless Dredge and I'd have the Therapies right there in my graveyard, for everyone to see.
I'm glad you're seeing SFMs applicability with Diabolic Intent (all though no list runs more than 1 copy of it, you bunch of crazies) but I'm still not too fond of SFM. In and of itself it doesn't really pose a threat to anyone or cleans up graveyards like certain other 1 and 2-drops.
So... The invitational is tomorrow. I am running a Starved Rusalka. Let's do this shit.
Wish me luck!
I'll let you guys know how it went.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
So... The invitational is tomorrow. I
am running a
Starved Rusalka. Let's do this shit.
Wish me luck!
I'll let you guys know how it went.
Just kick ass...will you !?!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
Just kick ass...will you !?!
I was planning on nothing less and will not settle for anything less than total domination. Also, thank you for the sideboarding advice. Yours was very helpful :smile:.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Echelon, I run two intents and two phyrexian towers! Everyone else is the crazies :)
I still run Scooze but yes, I don't like shaman so much.
This thread is so active, it's great.
And yes, may all your therapies hit and your gsuns resolve :)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)
I was thinking about her.. if i wanna play with her, i will probably cut some deed for Engineered Explosives, then u can save somehow destroyed top and discarded/destroyed equipments
But still, idk ... i dont think she worth it
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet
yep, this is exactly the reason, why i pick STF... especialy when banned dig made space for stifle
And about swords..
In maverick i was running 1x Sword of Light and shadow
His ability sucks... maybe against burn or RU delver. But in some MU give you creature cards
AND main reason i was playing this sword was B/W protection. In Nic Fit your important creatures are bolt/decay proof, but for example rhino... still eats a swords...
For example Gaddock with protection againts White isnt bad in miracle MU
G/B protection is much worst in my oppinion and you start swinging with sword too late to be powerful against some combo decks and in late game when players playing top deck its useless too..
On the other hand can help protect your bombs against FoW
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
I was thinking about her.. if i wanna play with her
Oh, i know that feeling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
This thread is so active, it's great.
Yes it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
This stuck into my head and i always think about it when i'm building anotger list or writing a comment. This deck van go so many ways that sometimes i glfeel my head is going to explode. The problem i have is that i can never be set on a 75 and keep playing that for a while.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Nagoron, I did run SoLaS once upon a time but you don't have to worry about STP so much when your main threats have hexproof :P the situation you described (teeg against miracles) is basically the only thing going for it, and for they you can use sylvan safekeeper instead (who is cheaper and decent against combo who use chain vapor etc)
Like you said, the abilities on SoLaS do suck, so I changed it for SoFaF and have been very impressed.
You can't underestimate doubling your mana each turn.
And it isn't an early game threat against combo it's instead a great mid to late game finisher. It has pseudo haste, costs 0 mana and makes them discard every turn, i.e. limits their resources and stops them from drawing out from under our initial barrage of discard and hate effects.
Against everyone else the protections are relevant, it stops people from sand bagging threats in their hands making sure our deeds have maximum affect, and like you said prevents counter magic stopping us from finishing the game :)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
@Nagoron, I did run SoLaS once upon a time but you don't have to worry about STP so much when your main threats have hexproof :P the situation you described (teeg against miracles) is basically the only thing going for it, and for they you can use sylvan safekeeper instead (who is cheaper and decent against combo who use chain vapor etc)
Like you said, the abilities on SoLaS do suck, so I changed it for SoFaF and have been very impressed.
You can't underestimate doubling your mana each turn.
And it isn't an early game threat against combo it's instead a great mid to late game finisher. It has pseudo haste, costs 0 mana and makes them discard every turn, i.e. limits their resources and stops them from drawing out from under our initial barrage of discard and hate effects.
Against everyone else the protections are relevant, it stops people from sand bagging threats in their hands making sure our deeds have maximum affect, and like you said prevents counter magic stopping us from finishing the game :)
WHen i tried Sword of Feast and Famine i was disapointed when opponent had empty hand and i untap lands which i dont need...
But maybe that empty just mean dont be afraid and land your bombs
But untapping have effect only in small window when u are attacking with sword, but still have some cards in hand... maybe with sylvan library it can be crazy O:-)
Ill give a try ;)
Btw i have to played against Merfolks... some funny moments:
g1:
t2:i play StoneforgeM and looking for SoFaI, he response in his turn playing Phantasmal Image, copy mystiq and pull of his jitte..
t3:I attack with Mystiq, he block with his mystiq - didnt notic that he is white, idk why i missed that... he swing with his jitte...
t4: GSZ for Quasaly and kick his Jitte... scooped
g2: similar situation, but more efective sweep his army of catchers with jitte by one Deed... after deed i casted Carpet of Flowers aaand that was the end
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Jain and @Bob, today I've tried SFM (SoFaI/BSK). I have to say that I'm impressed so far, the early 2 mana threat is relevant because now we have a proactive way of spending our mana in the early turns; loving SoFaI over Jitte because pro blue adds yet another layer of resiliency that is always needed (especially against an active JTMS). I haven't had the time to test a lot against Miracles, but I have to say that I definitely underestimated what SFM can do. If I'll decide to migrate towards this build I'll definitely want to replace one of the deeds with a deluge (the nonbo between deed and equipments has come up a couple times in today's limited testing).
I'm not playing Diabolic Intents simply because I cannot find space in the 61; Truths have been removed in this build because 3x SDT are a must for me. Currently playing this removal package: 2xPtE 3xDeeds 3xDecays 1xPulse (1xCouncil's Judgement in the sb). I do really like it and this makes things really difficult for me when I try to see if I can cut anything to make space for something else (Truths?). I'll keep playing and reading your ideas.
I love the fact that this thread is so active, it's a pleasure to catch up with the read after a day of hard work. Keep it up!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.
I agree with that you should limit the total nr of equip/sfm. After all we are a bag full of trick and the morr it becomes "streamlined" the less it is true to itself.
I'd personally never go lower then 3 Deeds. That card is what differs itself of other decks. That card is often the game breaker against fair/creature.dec
Everyone is always very afraid to break their own stuff with it, but you should A. Never overextend your boardpresence, B think ahead to reduce colleteral damage and C. Know that launching Deed will be in your benefit. I'd rather add Toxic Deluge to the board.
Also because we run E.Witness, Meren and asun Titan we should be alright. Lastly, Batterskull is great next to Deeds.
That removal package from Rubblekill looks perfect. 2 pte/stp, 3Decay/Deed, 1Pulse/Vindicate.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
@Jain and @Bob, today I've tried SFM (SoFaI/BSK). I have to say that I'm impressed so far, the early 2 mana threat is relevant because now we have a proactive way of spending our mana in the early turns; loving SoFaI over Jitte because pro blue adds yet another layer of resiliency that is always needed (especially against an active JTMS). I haven't had the time to test a lot against Miracles, but I have to say that I definitely underestimated what SFM can do. If I'll decide to migrate towards this build I'll definitely want to replace one of the deeds with a deluge (the nonbo between deed and equipments has come up a couple times in today's limited testing).
I'm not playing Diabolic Intents simply because I cannot find space in the 61; Truths have been removed in this build because 3x SDT are a must for me. Currently playing this removal package: 2xPtE 3xDeeds 3xDecays 1xPulse (1xCouncil's Judgement in the sb). I do really like it and this makes things really difficult for me when I try to see if I can cut anything to make space for something else (Truths?). I'll keep playing and reading your ideas.
I love the fact that this thread is so active, it's a pleasure to catch up with the read after a day of hard work. Keep it up!
Totally agree on this, especially on that last part!
Over the last couple of pages, it was (as an advocate of SFM) nice to see that the majority(?) of Junk Fit players around here finally dignify our little Kor girl. That said, I jumped on the SoFaI over Jitte maindeck train. No chance to test it yet, but I see the advantages.
Second, there was the discussion of finding the right numbers for the Deathrite/Veteran mix. I guess there is no right number, depending on list. But I feel quite confident with 4 Veteran Explorer (come on, we really want that signature Nic Fit opener with Therapy) and 2 Deathrite Shaman.
Another discussion a while back was about siding out Veterans vs. Death n' Taxes G2&G3. I play this matchup at least once a week, and he plays a really "tax-intensive" list with 4 Wasteland, 4 Thalia next to some number of Vryn Wingmare, and 4 Ports. Even if we give him lands to compensate Wasteland or to activate his Ports, we can get out of "range" with multiple Explorers (e.g. beeing cut off a colour by Ports) and overall, we play the bigger spells here. Plus sometimes we need to speed out a Deed with the help of Veteran Explorers to stop them killing us: Against a deck with lots of evasive creatures (Mother of Runes, Flickerwisp, Mindcensor, Wingmare) it really can be crucial if you stabilize at 10 life or at 4 life. Games can be over quickly. But we have lifegain though.
A funny sidenote of our G1 yesterday: I mull to 5 with a 5-land-hand, first draw beeing a Swamp. His beginning was an usual sequence of Vial, Mother of Runes, Thalia and Serra Avenger. He realized my draw was very bad and wanted to close the game as quick as possible. Then I draw Deed while he had not found his Revoker in time. He had a Wingmare back in hand which put me from 5 to 1 life, but then my topdecks where: Swords, Zenith, Zenith, Zenith. He just topdecked lands. Rage-scooped after second Rhino.
Today I'm playtesting against Death n' Taxes, Dragon Stompy, Grixis Pyro, and maybe Goblins/Fish/MUD/High Tide. I'll post if there is something interesting to discuss.
Finally, I can not hide my joy about the activity on this thread. So glad we have this platform to discuss this wondeful but often debatable deck.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.
I agree that 4 sfm might be overkill, but a single tutor for our equipments seems just random in my opinion. I love rhino as much as you, but it's not like we don't have bodies to carry sfm's treats: it's the opposite, infact one could argue that resilient creatures may very well be even better that rhino to equip. Even troll ascetic is better in that regard imho. After I replaced rhinos with sfm I have added a tusk in order to still have a tutorable way of gaining life (plus tusk is a more resilient choice due to his 3/3 friend). As I have said I'm an advocate of rhino but I honestly don't know if I really want 3 of them in the sfm build (I cut them all to be honest, I might be wrong here but that's my starting point).
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
I agree that 4 sfm might be overkill, but a single tutor for our equipments seems just random in my opinion. I love rhino as much as you, but it's not like we don't have bodies to carry sfm's treats: it's the opposite, infact one could argue that resilient creatures may very well be even better that rhino to equip. Even troll ascetic is better in that regard imho. After I replaced rhinos with sfm I have added a tusk in order to still have a tutorable way of gaining life (plus tusk is a more resilient choice due to his 3/3 friend). As I have said I'm an advocate of rhino but I honestly don't know if I really want 3 of them in the sfm build (I cut them all to be honest, I might be wrong here but that's my starting point).
Rhino and mystic are good couple...
Dont forget that troll or Thragtusk dont have trample and that could be an issue if you are running swords. Its pretty enoying when some dump 1/1 spacedudy block you.. with rhino its much more harder.
On the other hand Terminus on your trampling rhino... and u r doomed. In this situation Thragtusk have advantage, but iam afraid that is just one MU, in others rhino is just better.
There where some note about lingering souls, i rly like that card. With mystic flying dudes are helpful, but in my oppinion it doesnt fit in nicfit. Or should fit.. cose the fun of nic fit is in his bombs and not in his 1/1 tokens which are nonbo with his sweepers.
But still when u r running Mystic, there will be often situation when your board is empty and you desperatly need some body to carry your equip (Iam not talking about Batterskull now)...
There was some builds with Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a token generator/buffer.
pros:
Bolt proof
Decay proof => she is pretty much in save against spells (yea yea vindicate, pulse... )
helpfull buffing- even dryad without trample can fly over army of pyromancers army and hit with sword, draw a card and kill pyromancer....
token generator
cons:
example: emty board, you pla elspeth, get 1/1 token... next turn pump your token to 4/4 and then any single removal speal can ruin her 2 turn attempts
Next card when she is defenseless is delver or worst Clique casted the end of your turn. There is no way to defend her against some pesky flyers. Soo even miracles can easy handle with your planeswalker, and to be honest i wanna play planeswalker mainly as my ace against miracles.
ulti is often pretty useless
Mana cost... WW could be and will be an issue...
Is she worth it? Isnt there better option for this kind of job?
For example
Garruk, Primal Hunter appear often in nic fit lists...
3x G again could be an issue...
but when Elspeh gives you second turn attacking 4/4, Garruk have 2x 3/3 beast, and 6 is more then 4... ( and 5 mana cost is more then 4 i know.. )
But again, flyers take him down without problem.. clean and quick if you dont have prepared decay (dont wanna deed when u are generating tokens)
On the other hand his drawing ability is amazing! but -3 cost can be a problem :(
And on the end, his ulty has ultimate effect... :D, unfortunaly can be trolled with terminus as well...
Ob Nixilis Reignited - i dont like his art, i dont like his drawing of random card-i wanna something more then draw a card for 5 mana, i dont like his ulty, his second ability could be helpful... but thats all and its cost is not low.
No token generator and random card rly dont provide a body for swords
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - his drawing mechanism is much better then Nixilis... but when you cant find any creature... dam it
His ulty i RLY dont like it... just make game much longer, i wanna kill with ulty not make the game longer
Buff 3x +1/+1 is nice - 4/4 veteran? why not xD
But he has no way how to protect him self, only if you have some creatures... not just flyers, but all creatures. - no token generating, no removal utility
Nissa, Worldwaker < Garruk....
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - i didnt heard about this guy much...
decay proof, bolt proof... ok next
1. utility - lifelink can be sometimes helpful... but you need some guy on the board when u r casting Sorin
2. utility - its gonna be more interesting, finally he can defend him self against flyers... kill clique, kill delver!... but -2 counters :(
ulti: iam afraid its pretty useless, against some sneak attack its too slow, reanimation the same.. and in other MU you rly dont want his ulty
But possibility of generating FEW 2/2flayers, which can be pumped for +1/0 and lifeling looks interesting for me
what is your suggestion?
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
next version of sorin
1. utility: generating 1/1 lifelink dudes is better then generating 1/1 dudes
2. utility: aaand this is not the best... :( but cant be tricked like +3/+3 sorcery buff of elspeth
3. utility: posibility of killing Jace? or just killing 3 creatures isnt the worst, on the other hand, if opponnt has 3 creatures, you probably not gonna cast his ulty cose of lack of counters xD
Garruk Relentless
6 utilities
eats a bolts all the day
His removable makes him just 4mana removal spell often..
idk, i can imagine him in some situation where he is the boss, but i can imagine situation where he sucks so hard...
Vraska the Unseen and Lili they are not for junk build i guess....
Your suggestions?
Iam wrong in meaning about some of mentioned planeswalker? Or did i left some interesting guy for us unnoticed?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
Rhino and mystic are good couple...
Dont forget that troll or Thragtusk dont have trample and that could be an issue if you are running swords. Its pretty enoying when some dump 1/1 spacedudy block you.. with rhino its much more harder.
On the other hand Terminus on your trampling rhino... and u r doomed. In this situation Thragtusk have advantage, but iam afraid that is just one MU, in others rhino is just better.
There where some note about lingering souls, i rly like that card. With mystic flying dudes are helpful, but in my oppinion it doesnt fit in nicfit. Or should fit.. cose the fun of nic fit is in his bombs and not in his 1/1 tokens which are nonbo with his sweepers.
But still when u r running Mystic, there will be often situation when your board is empty and you desperatly need some body to carry your equip (Iam not talking about Batterskull now)...
There was some builds with Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a token generator/buffer.
pros:
Bolt proof
Decay proof => she is pretty much in save against spells (yea yea vindicate, pulse... )
helpfull buffing- even dryad without trample can fly over army of pyromancers army and hit with sword, draw a card and kill pyromancer....
token generator
cons:
example: emty board, you pla elspeth, get 1/1 token... next turn pump your token to 4/4 and then any single removal speal can ruin her 2 turn attempts
Next card when she is defenseless is delver or worst Clique casted the end of your turn. There is no way to defend her against some pesky flyers. Soo even miracles can easy handle with your planeswalker, and to be honest i wanna play planeswalker mainly as my ace against miracles.
ulti is often pretty useless
Mana cost... WW could be and will be an issue...
Is she worth it? Isnt there better option for this kind of job?
For example
Garruk, Primal Hunter appear often in nic fit lists...
3x G again could be an issue...
but when Elspeh gives you second turn attacking 4/4, Garruk have 2x 3/3 beast, and 6 is more then 4... ( and 5 mana cost is more then 4 i know.. )
But again, flyers take him down without problem.. clean and quick if you dont have prepared decay (dont wanna deed when u are generating tokens)
On the other hand his drawing ability is amazing! but -3 cost can be a problem :(
And on the end, his ulty has ultimate effect... :D, unfortunaly can be trolled with terminus as well...
Ob Nixilis Reignited - i dont like his art, i dont like his drawing of random card-i wanna something more then draw a card for 5 mana, i dont like his ulty, his second ability could be helpful... but thats all and its cost is not low.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - his drawing mechanism is much better then Nixilis... but when you cant find any creature... dam it
His ulty i RLY dont like it... just make game much longer, i wanna kill with ulty not make the game longer
Buff 3x +1/+1 is nice - 4/4 veteran? why not xD
But he has no way how to protect him self, only if you have some creatures... not just flyers, but all creatures. - no token generating, no removal utility
Nissa, Worldwaker < Garruk....
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - i didnt heard about this guy much...
decay proof, bolt proof... ok next
1. utility - lifelink can be sometimes helpful... but you need some guy on the board when u r casting Sorin
2. utility - its gonna be more interesting, finally he can defend him self against flyers... kill clique, kill delver!... but -2 counters :(
ulti: iam afraid its pretty useless, against some sneak attack its too slow, reanimation the same.. and in other MU you rly dont want his ulty
But possibility of generating FEW 2/2flayers, which can be pumped for +1/0 and lifeling looks interesting for me
what is your suggestion?
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
next version of sorin
1. utility: generating 1/1 lifelink dudes is better then generating 1/1 dudes
2. utility: aaand this is not the best... :( but cant be tricked like +3/+3 sorcery buff of elspeth
3. utility: posibility of killing Jace? or just killing 3 creatures isnt the worst, on the other hand, if opponnt has 3 creatures, you probably not gonna cast his ulty cose of lack of counters xD
Garruk Relentless
6 utilities
eats a bolts all the day
His removable makes him just 4mana removal spell often..
idk, i can imagine him in some situation where he is the boss, but i can imagine situation where he sucks so hard...
Vraska the Unseen and Lili they are not for junk build i guess....
Your suggestions?
Iam wrong in meaning about some of mentioned planeswalker? Or did i left some interesting guy for us unnoticed?
I have elspeth ke e 5 Cmc garruk and they are great, especially with equipments
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
The invitational is over! And I won't spoil how it went. Here goes the report:
Eight finals, vs some BG rock/prison homebrew.
Game 1: I start off well and get a Meren on the board pretty early. After sending a Dryad Arbor and a Scavenging Ooze straight to their doom into a [cards]Knight of the Reliquary[cards] I eat all his lands with my Ooze. When he tries to force pressure with Titania, Protector of Argoth I PtE it during my main phase and answer the token he makes with a Pernicious Deed for X = 0. After that, he dies to assorted beats.
Game 2: I mulligan to 5 and just get nowhere.
Game 3: Was kinda close. It saw my opponent Toxic Deluge for 5 life to get rid of a Rhino. Eventually I topdeck a Fierce Empath to fetch up a Dragonlord Dromoka after which I topdeck the last land needed to cast the big guy. He dies 2 turns later. Made it to top 8!
Quarter finals, vs BUG Delver. Hello there, delicious prey!
Game 1: I know he plays blue and start off on the play with a blind Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm. Hit! Then my opponent fucks me over on a Veteran Explorer trigger when I get caught up in casting and flashbacking Cabal Therapies (I thought it apparent I'd be shortcutting). In turn I fuck him over when he blindly reveals a FoW to flip his Delver with "Wait a sec, I can respond to that trigger. PtE your Delver! Somewhat starved on mana, I GSZ for Ooze just to fuck with his DRS (I was seriously annoyed). Eventually it grows to 6/6, blanks his DRS and stomps him down like a boss. I like playing nice and friendly and seriously hate opponents that try to forcefully get you to skip over triggers. Do this to me and you're sure to get butthurt. Seriously.
Game 2: I keep the slowest hand ever, dropping land after land and offering my face as a cushion to a Tarmogoyf. First I drop a Rhino, which catches the first FoW. Then I drop Sigarda, which also catches a FoW. I die.
Game 3: I have a nice hand and start off with what makes this deck so good. Swamp, Cabal Therapy, name Force of Will. Miss. That's OK, honey badger doesn't care. Turn 2: Fetch, Forest, Veteran Explorer, flashback Therapy, discard his last creature and lol @his FoW w/o a blue card. The turn after that I drop a Siege Rhino and proceed to smash face. He drops a Tarmogoyf, I PtE it and swing for 4. He proceeds to drop another Tarmogoyf after which I topdeck another Rhino. I don't swing b/c both Tarmo & Rhino are 4/5. I play a Verdant Catacombs and pass the turn. On his turn he plays a Lilliana and activates it. In response, I fetch a Dryad Arbor, sacrifice that and swing for the win. Semi finals, here I come!
Semi-finals: Infect. Fuck. Out of all possible MUs (another BUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade and Infect) this was the only one I really didn't want to face. Props to my opponent though, it was a wonderfully kind guy. Honestly a treat to play against!Dryad
Game 1: I die turn 3 to a big fucking Blinkmoth. I believe I got out Sigarda and Meren + Eternal Witness and managed cast PtE, recur Sigarda and Eternal Witness Pte, only to get slapped in the face with a 20-something Blinkmoth. He had Invigorate, Berserk (which got him to lethal) and the Vines of Vastwood to blank my PtE.
Game 2: I actually manage to stall his stuff with 2 Cabal Therapy into Pernicious Deed but fuck it up when I tap out for Golgari Charm and PtE (for which he has Vines of Vastwood again). He kills me on the backswing w/ a Become Immense and a kick Vines of Vastwood. Note to self: THINK!
Oh well. I was the only non-blue deck to make it to T4, so that's something. I get 70 euros in store credit for my effort and manage to trade it and some leftover cards for a Bayou, a Savannah and a Scrubland. B/c up until now I've only been using shock duals (and rather succesfully, I might add). So... End of the day I'm very happy with the result I've finally completed my deck!
Decklist was the same as 2 weeks ago, minus a Deed for a Dryad Militant (there were 3 Storm players, but I didn't face any) and a DRS for Starved Rusalka. I wasn't unhappy to see it, but haven't gotten the engine going yet either. I'll be keeping it in for some more testing. The 3rd Deed is getting back in though!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.
Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.
Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..
Do a good deed (no pun intended) and play some Junk Fit!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
1 Sun Titan
[/cards]
Why you play sun titan?
I dont like him too much, in my oppinion too much condition to work well... can u explain this pick?
I think grave is just ... less depended and faster killer
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.
Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..
The invitational was just a top 16, single elimination. There were no rounds before that :smile:.
@Nargoron: Sun Titan plays well with Pernicious Deed :wink:.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
Why you play sun titan?
Sun Titan indeed works well with Deeds, but also with E.Witness, DRS, SFM (even just to shuffle). And what about Liliana, Qasali or Gaddock Teek from the board. That card provides control, in such a way that it will take complete control of the game. That's how i like to play NicFit, forcing complete control over the board, rather then squeezing thru damage. Plus that 6/6 Vigilance is already powerful on it's own. Only thing is i have no way to fetch it, but games that go long it will eventually show up. And when it does...
Also i am not that afraid of gravehate because that is something you can either combat or ignore as a whole depending on how the gravehate is integrated in the opposing deck.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Sun Titan indeed works well with Deeds, but also with E.Witness, DRS, SFM (even just to shuffle). And what about Liliana, Qasali or Gaddock Teek from the board. That card provides control, in such a way that it will take complete control of the game. That's how i like to play NicFit, forcing complete control over the board, rather then squeezing thru damage. Plus that 6/6 Vigilance is already powerful on it's own. Only thing is i have no way to fetch it, but games that go long it will eventually show up. And when it does...
Also i am not that afraid of gravehate because that is something you can either combat or ignore as a whole depending on how the gravehate is integrated in the opposing deck.
My only problem is that he is definitely too slow and against stp.dec (->miracles) he isn't really useful because they exile bounce or terminus our creatures, sometimes they even board in rip. That's the reason meren is removed in the sb games against decks with stp. Plus he can't be gsz and doesn't defend himself. Sunny T seems good against GBx decks instead, it could very well be a meta choice imo: if the meta is dominated by control I'd play a walker instead of him, otherwise he can be a powerful top of the mana curve vs fair decks
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
My only problem is that he is definitely too slow and against stp.dec (->miracles) he isn't really useful because they exile bounce or terminus our creatures, sometimes they even board in rip. That's the reason meren is removed in the sb games against decks with stp. Plus he can't be gsz and doesn't defend himself. Sunny T seems good against GBx decks instead, it could very well be a meta choice imo: if the meta is dominated by control I'd play a walker instead of him, otherwise he can be a powerful top of the mana curve vs fair decks
Against StP.dec or Miracles i have Sigarda, Thrun and Thragtusk. Meren is a less solid choice against those indeed, aswell as S.Titan. But after boarding we get some juice in return. Gaddock Teeg, Liliana, Qasali, Carpet, Surgical Extraction are fine cards to play instead. Also i am expecting Elves, Infect and Shardless so there it will hold a lot more value. And the array of decks vary to much to make a solid prediction. We have various tools to combat most of the field with some options stronger then others. Having that said, i prefer the utility and flexibility provided at the cost of not being green over the dumbness/attack power of DLD or Grave Titan (which is also not green).
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I can imagine, how i am able to deed board every turn with mighty titan...
On the other hand, i can imagine, how i am desperatly searching in grave something useful...
Like witness, you have to play something what you need before... and this is an condition
DtS or Ooze can make your titan just overpriced 6/6 dude...
and iam facing often gravehate cards with nic fit
condition, condition...
And this is the reason why iam not fun of sun titan... :(
Maybe with some grave support like Satyr Wayfinder?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Pimpin' ain't easy, boys.
Merry Christmas, you filthy Veteran Exploring-playin' peeps.
http://i.imgur.com/fSmUEkg.jpg
-Matt
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Pimpin' ain't easy, boys.
Merry Christmas, you filthy Veteran Exploring-playin' peeps.
-Matt
I can't deny that I laughed, audibly.
Accordingly to our philosophy of dropping bombs on the field, you have hung that serious bomb on that mafakin' tree. Sometimes a rhino isn't classy enough.
Merry Christmas to you, fellow jank enthusiast, we all appreciate you for your work here.
-Francis
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qhax7FywZM...g+lebowski.jpg
@Matt, I'm currently really sad because I'm missing the joke. I can't see a magic card or anything that resembles a magic reference on that tree. Can some one be a team player and tell me what I'm missing! Or is it just a happy tree?
@Echelon, congrats, sounds like good times were had :)
@Everyone, happy holidays! I've ordered myself some Alpha Tsunamis and some Apac / Euro basic lands, I hope Santa is equally or more generous to the rest of ya!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
@Matt, I'm currently really sad because I'm missing the joke. I can't see a magic card or anything that resembles a magic reference on that tree. Can some one be a team player and tell me what I'm missing! Or is it just a happy tree?
@Echelon, congrats, sounds like good times were had :)
@Everyone, happy holidays! I've ordered myself some Alpha Tsunamis and some Apac / Euro basic lands, I hope Santa is equally or more generous to the rest of ya!
Have you not seen the big red PORSCHE ball hung on that goddamn tree?!? The man is clearly living the dream of being a pimp Magic: The Gathering player, I'm sure there is some piece of power inside the damn ball :)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qhax7FywZM...g+lebowski.jpg
@Matt, I'm currently really sad because I'm missing the joke. I can't see a magic card or anything that resembles a magic reference on that tree. Can some one be a team player and tell me what I'm missing! Or is it just a happy tree?
@Echelon, congrats, sounds like good times were had :)
@Everyone, happy holidays! I've ordered myself some Alpha Tsunamis and some Apac / Euro basic lands, I hope Santa is equally or more generous to the rest of ya!
Some offense taken... I've only been on the stoneforge package for over a year. I'll keep my experience and tech to myself and let the modern crossover players figure it out for themselves... it seems to take a long time for people to get on board with my contributions like pte and storm breath.
I will say this tho if I were to take the deck down a 4 stoneforge route id be looking at 2 skull 1 jitte 1 sofi and a nahiri, with more intents then zeniths.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
Some offense taken... I've only been on the stoneforge package for over a year. I'll keep my experience and tech to myself and let the modern crossover players figure it out for themselves... it seems to take a long time for people to get on board with my contributions like pte and storm breath.
Haha, my apologies, I didn't realised you were God's gift to Nic Fit.
And no offense was taken (why do people assume someone is offended?), you just stated that something was fact, when it's an opinion. I disagree with that opinion, seems reasonable enough.
And for what it's worth, I've also been playing SFM in Nic Fit for over a year... So I don't know Uncletiggy, I guess we shall both have to stop educating the masses of unappreciative plebs crossing over from modern, or something.
@rubblekill, ooohhhhhhh I seeeeeeee, I was looking for a Russian Cabal Therapy hanging somewhere XD
Edit for Uncletiggys edit: I disagree, I run 4 gsuns and would never run less, they find your vets and your sword carriers. I also run 1-2 diabolic intents and wouldn't run more than 2 anyways. One Batterskull is enough and I've never really found a Nahiri to be good enough for the 5 mana investment, maybe out of the sideboard though in anticipation for their artifact removal in grinder matchups.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Never said I was gods gift to anything its just that thrun is the only form of trolling I appreciate...
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
uncletiggy
Never said I was gods gift to anything its just that thrun is the only form of trolling I appreciate...
You should try Troll Ascetic, he's a cheaper date ;)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Thrun has a pimp cane tho he's buying ;)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
First things first, congrats to Echelon for making Top4.
So, as I said I played against various decks in a non-tournement environment 2 days ago. Tried a list similar to the one that Nargoron posted on p.141, but with the following changes:
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Courser of Kruphix
- 1 Toxic Deluge
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Phyrexian Tower
+ 1 Vraska (pet card, but serious.. sometimes this card is bonkers)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+ 1 Deed
+ 2 Painful Truths
+ 1 Forest
Didn't take notes, but I just want to share some thoughts anyhow.
1. First match was against Mono Red Stompy. My opponent had not played a single game of mtg for about half a year and never faced Nic Fit before. As in many matchups, Pernicious Deed is key here. Swords were important too, especially on Hound of Griselbrand. Otherwise, they suck against my main enemy called Stormbreath Dragon. 4/4 flying haste protection from white is pretty effective against us.
G2 this Dragon solely puts me down to 7 life, and he was 1 mana short to make it monstrous to kill me next turn. I had Sigarda zenithed out the turn before and top decked.... Sword of Fire and Ice! Play, equip, attack for exact 7+2 damage. 2:0!
This beeing the first match with SoFaI main. Totally worth it.
2. The next 4 games were against Death n' Taxes. The fact that I saw his playset maindeck Revokers not more than 2 times says it all. Won all games, but I feel stabilizing/ finding the right removal the right time is often just luck dependant. Tops + shuffle and Painful Truths help here. Otherwise two of these games I was at 3 life without ever having the fear of loosing control at any time.
Sidenote: Thought about siding out Meren here, as he plays a set of Swords to Plowshares. But I wanted to test her in the different matchups and was rewarded, as she singlehandedly broke board symmetry one game when she wasn't handled for about 4 turns.
3. RUG Delver. I hate this matchup, even though its mostly positive. Lost 2:0. G1 a well timed Wasteland + a misplay of mine when not paying 2 mana for Spell Pierce on Cabal Therapy to grab his Stifle were game.
G2 his hand was kind of Stifle, BS, Goyf, Submerge, Submerge, Wasteland, Tropical. Felt unwinnable.
4. Against Goblins. G1 t1 blind Therapy hits 3(!) Goblin Matrons (pls don't ask why I name this one. What do you guys name in this matchup? Or just wait until Matron/Ringleader resolve? I think it is too late then...). He never came back from this.
G2 was a turn 3 or 4 kill. 3 Lackys were to fast to handle. Swords on one of this two Piledrivers were just a drop in the bucket. G3 I lead with some Vet/Therapy into Deed into Meren into another Deed I think. Won that match.
5. Against Grixis Pyro. All games were close. G3 I didn't kill his Tasigur with Vraskas -3 when I had the chance to. Maybe my SFM equiped with Jitte then could have raced his TNN. We will never now.
6. Last match was against the same guy that played the Stompy deck, this time he played MUD. Horrible matchup, lost 2:1. As you can imagine how the losses went, let's focus on G2: He had a fast start with Metalworker, but no Lightning Greaves. Anyway, I feared turn 3 Blightsteel Colossus, so I hold my Swords. He instead speeds out Steel Hellkite + Kuldotha Forgemaster, so my problems were everything but unsolved! My turn, I top decked Therapy, took his Wormcoil Engine he revealed with his Metalworker. Flashback with VetEx. took Grim Monolith I guess. Play Deed with white open for Swords. As much as I wanted to take out his Forgemaster while summoning sick, I had the feeling that this lonesome Deed would be my only chance winning this game (with the foolish plan of ramping with Meren+Veteran Explorer), so I had to prevent his Steel Hellkite from dealing combat damage.. Next turn he didn't draw the 3rd artifact to sac to his Forgemaster (thanks, Therapy!). So Deed for 5. The following couple of turns were back and forth, Wurmcoil meets Swords bringing him to 34life and so on, while I got Meren active and zenithed for Quasali Pridemage. At this point his only chances were All is Dust or Blightsteel i guess, but my clock was fast enough.
Nutshell: Meren, multiple Explorers into some kind of large enough Deeds, Pridemage „lock“ and a lot of luck were necessary to steal some games here.
Sry for wording/mistakes, english not beeing my native language and it's late around here in Europe. Merry Christmas to yah all!
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meyer
First things first, congrats to Echelon for making Top4.
+ 1 Vraska (pet card, but serious.. sometimes this card is bonkers)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+ 1 Deed
+ 2 Painful Truths
+ 1 Forest
Vraska: r u feel comfortable with her? Isnt better to pick some ... better token generator for your equipments?
and how often you manage to use her ulty?
Vraska is pretty interesting, but often her +1 utility is just useless :( and on planeswalker with 5 mana cost.... i need more
But i have never tested her... so just asking :)
Painful Truth i like that card.... but in games, very often i just draw some craps which i didnt need and just pay 3 life for nothing... Diabolic Intent look better for me, especialy when u drop phyrexial tower for third forest
deed vs deluge depend just on your meta :) and if u r facing MUDs, some stompy decks.. its wise choice
Andd in your report, you had rly bad luck against RUG :( its a pitty, cose Nic fit is delver killer.... nwm, congratulation for your result, i hope you had fun ...
and merry xmas :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meyer
Meren, multiple Explorers into some kind of large enough Deeds, Pridemage „lock“ and a lot of luck were necessary to steal some games here.
yep, that is nesty, especialy when u r facing some stompy deck ... or MUD :)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
Vraska: r u feel comfortable with her? Isnt better to pick some ... better token generator for your equipments?
and how often you manage to use her ulty?
Vraska is pretty interesting, but often her +1 utility is just useless :( and on planeswalker with 5 mana cost.... i need more
But i have never tested her... so just asking :)
Painful Truth i like that card.... but in games, very often i just draw some craps which i didnt need and just pay 3 life for nothing... Diabolic Intent look better for me, especialy when u drop phyrexial tower for third forest
Vraska is something else. For a while i have played her in my JUND list. If it weren't for Stormbreath Dragon I'd probably squeeze her in somewhere. That said, If you are looking for token generating Walker then look further. This one has a very different function. Often people find she is an overpriced Maelstrom Pulse or Vindicate, BUT i disagree strongly here. 5 CMC is a lot, but being BG(3) is quite easy to achieve with this deck. Now, the -3 function can be a real lifesaver and given that weren't for this ability she wouldn't have been interesting at all. Nonetheless, after destroying something (or not) she sticks around and becomes very scary.
The ultimate is in most cases a game winner, plus that you have time to set the conditions to push at least 1 token thru. An important aspect of this ultimate is that it dodges life total, which can be relevant in somewhat grindy games were you are not able to win fast enough thru life.
The +1 does not look impressive when looking at it, but knowing that her ultimate will win the game makes the choice your opponent is left with something he is gonna have to think about. Is he gonna sacrifice one of his creatures to kill her or keep her loyalty in check or is he gonna ignore it and try to race your life total? Also people are really trying to prevent her to get a second -3 activation and spend quite some resources dealing with her. Either way, this is gonna benefit you.
About P.Truths, i totally agree. For NicFit, quality over quantity any day.
Happy holidays..
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@ Nargoron: Vraska isn't meant to be a token producer. Therefor I prefer Elspeth KE, or even Garruk PH or Sorin.
As Bobmans stated out, Vraska is primarily useful because of her -3. Yes, Vindicate or Pulse are both more efficient and kind of stronger, too. But Vraska has the ability to stay on the board after she had impact on the game. So in most cases, she is at least a 1 for 1. Okay, 3gb is expensive for a trade like this, but if our board state is preferable while or after her appearence, she can easily become a 2 for 1 or even more. Combined with Deed this card is nuts: It buys time to get counters on her for multiple -3 activations or clears the board before the assassin tokens arrive. (to be fair, I won just once this way)
Nontheless I agree that her +1 ability isn't very strong. More often than not attacking me and not her is just better for my opponent anyway. Probably cut her in the near future, maybe for Intent or Deluge. I was brainstorming about these cards already, glad you guys mention exactly these two. I guess in my meta Toxic Deluge isn't necessary a sideboard card.
about Painful Truths: Actually I expulsed them about two weeks ago as I posted here. But I also wanted to give them a last shot.. and I was fairly excited about what this card did in the different matchups. In the end Bobmans could be right with his statement about quality over quantity. In this case I'll swap those with 2x Intent or Intent + Library.
