[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Ulysse95

What was your list?

Sometimes, finish is indeed the problem. But between Dovescape, lingering souls and wurmcoil, it should be ok, no? What was the issue apart from removals on your wurms?

I really liked misfortunes, just need a particular build to have enought good targets.
Starfield can be good again since it seems that the meta became a bit slowler, no?

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Deck: Legacy Wurmmachine.dec

Creatures:8
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector

Spells:31
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
3 Evolutionary Leap
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Sandwurm Convergence

Lands:22
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:13
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Innocent Blood
2 Ground Seal
1 Choke
2 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
1 Starfield of Nyx
2 more cards can't remember on top of my head

Mostly I went to time because this deck is good at surviving, dragging out the game.
In one game I won through three disenchants.

My plan is to -2 inquisition -2 push -1 Sandwurm convergence for +2 CB +1 curse of misfortunes, +1 starfield +1 Cruel reality
Curse and starfield is semi castable and act as rector 5-6 for increased consistency.
Brutality can pitch drawn bombs to cheat in with starfield.

I haven't tried fetching dovescape on a chance and try to win with higher cmc spells. Do you think that line is viable?

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Originally Posted by Jed4570

I get the point about Diabolic Intent, although, if I make tweaks (see below) I would have options for tutor worthy answers.

That was the thought to use POD for silver bullets ... but as you say, with Kolaghan's Command being used more, POD is susceptible. Without it, I'd certainly have more slots for Diabolic Intent bullets. Another PW might be an idea ... Nissa is great, is two too many? Or Garruck Relentless?

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My biggest beef with Pod lists is that they tend to durdle like there's no tomorrow, regardless of how it's currently positioned. It's so much more efficient to just dump a threat and go for it rather than try and grind a little bit of easily answerable advantage. Basically power creep made Pod obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

My biggest beef with Pod lists is that they tend to durdle like there's no tomorrow, regardless of how it's currently positioned. It's so much more efficient to just dump a threat and go for it rather than try and grind a little bit of easily answerable advantage. Basically power creep made Pod obsolete.

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SE builds revolve around the concept of building up a lot of incremental advantage (mostly through a bunch of 2 for 1's and card draw) and then eventually win, despite having weaker individual board pieces. The strategy still works, just not with Pod as your engine.

As always though, I favor moderation. Sometimes giving up a bit of grinding in order to quicken your clock is worth it. I'm getting real close to replacing Nissa with Carnage Tyrant. The only reason I haven't fully embraced the switch yet, is that having access to hasted threats can be extremely powerful and I haven't yet found something in green that provides haste. Strangleroot Geist is something I've tried a bit, and haven't had completely horrible results with, but I don't like the mana cost. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is the next best, but I haven't found a good creature curve to enable Ferocious yet (though I like that Dryad Arbor+Bob turns it on, or Tracker).

I could easily see my next build using Chameleon Colossus+Surrak+Carnage Tyrant as my top end.

I'm really interested in both Scapeshift and Helm builds, but I don't have the cards for either. Helm I could probably put together now, but I won't be able to build Scapeshift for a couple months, at minimum.

Maybe thinking something like this... I think I'll even have a chance to play it this weekend due to the holidays here in the US.

Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Carnage Tyrant

Spells 19
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard 15
4 Lost Legacy
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Dismember
1 Maze of Ith
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Crop Rotation
1 Choke

This is where I'm at right now, but the curve is quite a bit higher than what I normally play with, so I'm looking for ways to streamline things.

At 79 mana pips, that means 1.32 mana per card and closer to 1.5 after GSZ is accounted for.
If I take a somewhat realistic look at mana progression it's probably going to look something like this over 8 turns 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7. That's 37 mana. Assume 3 clues and that leaves 31 to spend which is 20 cards. In 8 turns there's 8 draws+7 initial cards+3 from tracker and we're looking at 18 cards, plus a couple from Bob. This is almost at the point where it can play everything, but not quite there, as it can play everything on an average hand but not a below average hand. I'll have to think about it a bit more. Maybe playtest a hand or two.

Thoughts? Have I gone crazy? Anything for the sideboard that people think I should consider? I'm not yet sold on Dismember, Golgari Charm, Choke.

Brael, have you considered Giant Solifuge?

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1 toughness seems like way too big a drawback. I don't want a 4 drop that trades with an elemental token.

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Originally Posted by Brael

1 toughness seems like way too big a drawback. I don't want a 4 drop that trades with an elemental token.

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Yeah, true.

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Not much to go on, but I got a few sample hands in with the above list. It has the raw power I'm looking for, and Surrak seems pretty powerful. Thanks to him I was managing swings of 15+ on turn 4 or 5 while still being able to maintain card advantage.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

My plan is to -2 inquisition -2 push -1 Sandwurm convergence for +2 CB +1 curse of misfortunes, +1 starfield +1 Cruel reality
Curse and starfield is semi castable and act as rector 5-6 for increased consistency.
Brutality can pitch drawn bombs to cheat in with starfield.

I haven't tried fetching dovescape on a chance and try to win with higher cmc spells. Do you think that line is viable?

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You only have 1 decay, 2 deeds and no stp, so I fear you will be a bit under armed against fast bombs. But could be my vision.

Dovescape would have annnihiled those 3 desenchant you were talking about for exemple and yeah, in most match up, you will be ahead, mostly if you have evolution leap or Garruck on the board.

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Originally Posted by Brael

SE builds revolve around the concept of building up a lot of incremental advantage (mostly through a bunch of 2 for 1's and card draw) and then eventually win, despite having weaker individual board pieces. The strategy still works, just not with Pod as your engine.

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SE builds a lot of small advantages while keeping all of the bodies around (increasing pressure on the opponent as the game progresses), Pod just switches 1 body for another :wink:.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Brael, have you considered Giant Solifuge?

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Crocodile of the Crossing! Same CMC, worst case scenario same power and dies to Bolt to boot but at least can't be killed by a lone 1+/x.

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Originally Posted by Ulysse95

You only have 1 decay, 2 deeds and no stp, so I fear you will be a bit under armed against fast bombs. But could be my vision.

Dovescape would have annnihiled those 3 desenchant you were talking about for exemple and yeah, in most match up, you will be ahead, mostly if you have evolution leap or Garruck on the board.

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Good feedback. I have tried swords but
1)i felt that i needed more white sources so that i could cast it early and that more white sources were decreasing the mana-consistency. Like i really dont want basic plains in starting hands.
2) i've stuck with removal (except the one off decay) that also kills my rector if need be, also to increase consistency.
One could say i trade power for consistency but to me the power lies in the enchantments and i want to consistently cheat them in.

I only faced bombs versus nicfit. And i wouldnt say they were as much problems as pridemages and grips. I boarded in the two innocent bloods.
I will keep on tweaking the list and are happy for any feedback.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

Good feedback. I have tried swords but
1)i felt that i needed more white sources so that i could cast it early and that more white sources were decreasing the mana-consistency. Like i really dont want basic plains in starting hands.
2) i've stuck with removal (except the one off decay) that also kills my rector if need be, also to increase consistency.
One could say i trade power for consistency but to me the power lies in the enchantments and i want to consistently cheat them in.

I only faced bombs versus nicfit. And i wouldnt say they were as much problems as pridemages and grips. I boarded in the two innocent bloods.
I will keep on tweaking the list and are happy for any feedback.

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So you should try running 2 crop rotation. It's like having a stp against reanimator or dark depth (or sneack show) with a Karakas, but it's also like having two more phyrexian tower.

Hey guys,

Here's the report, as good as I can recollect it from my notes.
(Is that the good place to post it up?)

I was playing this, as previously mentioned, in a 97 players event.
7 rounds to Top8:

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1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Go for the Throat
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Ob Nixilis Reignited

4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower

side:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Choke
1 Tsunami
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pithing Needle

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Some comments, with the difference from square_two list (the one I can't find on the thread)
I usually play Academy Rector for the Omniscience crappy package. I am a little sad since Top got banned, and have yet found it's replacement.
And I must say I play it for ages, I kinda felt for a change. I was thinking either playing a hateful LLotV/Helm version, since every one wants to abuse graveyard with Snapcaster, K.Command, Angler... you name it, the Czech Pile crew, and all the B/r-Rea-haters-to-be-hated. It seems they still run in packs these days. One good thing with this deck, it that it happily kinda-completely ignores that stupid Leovold. :D
I also was impressed by Arian's list (Kudos!), and I actually felt like playing Scapeshift again since Chandra came out. But never got time to get at it, and I honestly did not follow on Dinosaurs, so I did not have the cards.
That's when I found a version of the list above, and I had most of these cards. Playing rather 1 Witness, 4 Trackers and 2 Nissa Vital Force instead of the Nixilis. The rest of the MD is just the same. First things first, I don't have Nissa's yet ^__^, so I went for my Nixilis buddy. The thing is that MD we don't have much to deal with Angler so I thought of it as a nice backup plan, who can do CA and as well finish off a guy. And I set a 2nd Witness, as I kind of appreciated the -3 from Nissa. Why not as well increasing redundancy through GSZ? especially when I don't have the Nissa.
Oh I forgot, the initial list plays Fatal Push over GftT. I just wonder why play a 1CCM spell that does not kill Angler, when a 2CCM spell kills everything else you wanna kill. And Strix ain't a target for Push right?

On the SB: I did not have the Lost Legacy, so I went for the usual 2 Surgicals. The initial list had 2 LLegacy and 1 Faerie Macabre. I can't still see why Faerie would be better than Surgical though?
It should have been a Pulse of Murasa over Pithing Needle, but I could not find it before the event. I wanted one just in case against Burn. And it is a somewhat decent GY hate. I was just unhappy when my Opponent in the 1/4 casted Lava Spike T1... and I was already missing this Pulse.
I was quite happy with Bitterblossom in the side. I have a feeling it is good in the current metagame. And everyone who saw it was like "awesome bro!". I was a bit anxious for Eldrazi, and guess Bitterblossom would have been great. In that respect, Ensnaring Bridge would be a better candidate, given all the Marit Lage pesting around? especially since Sejiri Steppe can be found easily.
I can't recall all the SB in and out, but they are quite easy with this deck. I think?


R1 - Bye
I wanna play and hate the world :((

R2 - A friend with 4c Loam - 2-1 // 2-1
Funny thing, we both know what the other play, since we we're friends and just chatting before the 2nd pairing. He just hated to see his pairing against me :P
G1 / OTP - We're both on Mulligan 6. I open LLotV, and blind Therapy T1 takes 2 Dark Confidant. Despite that I will lose this game :(
He resolve a Sylvan Library T2, and will lose 12 life on it to roll back on the Therapy T1 very fast. 2/2 KotRs, Ooze and Confidant will take me down, while I cannot draw enough removal and sweepers.
G2 / OTP - I open LLotV, Baloth, some Forest, GSZ, Deluge and Tutor. Opponent goes Mox + Gaddock Teeg T1. That prevents me to search the Veteran Explorer on GSZ. I actually 'tried' to cast GSZ forgetting what Gaddock does (I hate hobbits). Opponents reminds me of Hobbits' super powers, and I just manaburn myself (if only...). I think my silly action served me good later.
Lili comes T2 and goes +1 for my Baloth (opponent frowns, calling my Baloth a Nazi-SB-Hater :P). T3 Baloth stomps into Lili, Hobbits not being friends with witches, he galantly let her die. Actually, I did not land drop and I believe my Opp. did not want to let me play my GSZ, making him keep Gaddock (value of GSZ missplay?). He will play KotR which will buy some time thanks to Maze of Ith. So his KotR and Gaddock are looking into my Baloth eyes, while I finally find a B-source to play Deluge, which frees GSZ into Explorer. Follows Tutor for Helm.
G3 / OTD - That was a quick game, with no notes. I openened LLotV, fetched 3 times, and remember vaguely playing a Collective Brutality into Golgari Charm, saving my LLotV (I had kept a 2nd one in hand though) and Helm followed quickly.

R3 - Czech Pile - 0-2 // 2-3
G1 / ?? - I have made a few mistakes in this game. Early games was uneventful apart for a DRS and Discard for him. I eventually stack 2 Helms 1 LLotV and 1 Witness in my hand. I choose to run into his counters with Helm Helm LLotV with a Witness backup.
He lets resolve the 1st Helm, but destroys it with a Kolaghan's command. Follows a Tasigur, the Guest Star. 2nd Helm gets Force'd.
Witness to Helm also gets Snapcaster/Force'd. I draw GSZ and think, "nice my 2nd Witness!". I go for LLotV first though which resolves, but Tasigur already made a lot for him. Then I unfortunately draw my 2nd Witness, which tilted me out. Here's the essential mistake. I played Witness directly, that got Force'd, and then GSZ into a meaningless Tracker. I should have tried GSZ first to bait the Force (and he confirmed he would have), and then play my Witness. That would have got a Helm back for the win. Instead of that I will just die under his assaults...
Also, going with LLotV first would have been tremendously better. Opp didn't have a Force at that time, and Tasigur would have been cancelled. Anyway, different game. But I don't know if there was a way to know what was best to do at that time Leyline or Helm? Especially not knowing he self-invited Tasigur in his 60...
G2 / OTP - I lose this game on mana death. I had Forest, GSZ, Tracker, 2 Brutality, Tourach, and Deluge.
I take the bet that I will draw a land and go for GSZ on Dryad T1. I won't draw any land in the first turns. He goes with 2 DRS and discards (for Brutality and Deluge) and I will lose to that. A swamp eventually comes, so I can play a Brutality, he answers with a Surgical Extraction for the Deluge, and he reveals only lands in his hand. Drawing a land T2 would have been such a winner, wrong bet... don't let me play Poker ever :(

R4 - Plm-;) with Nic Fit, feat. Bob Maher - 2-0 // 4-3
G1 / OTP? - Double Tourach + Library won the game. I could have done anything after that. Nixilis came first, and I offered to kill my Opp with the Emblem. I went for that essentially for the fun, as I drew my 2nd Library to deal 12dmg per turn. Technically I also drew LLotV and Helm, but calling a Judge to ask how to resolve double Library was more fun :p (not calling the judge during a Nic Fit mirror would have been a simple shame!)
G2 / OTD - This game had more interaction, as I get low on life. Opp brought a Needle fast for Deed, and then went his way to beat me down with his troop. I eventually play Deed, then Decay the Needle to wipe the board. Followed by Helm. (I think I had LLotV in the 7?)

R5 - Top8-er, Storm - 2-0 // 6-3
G1 / OTD? - I saw a few cards during his shuffling, so I knew what kind of hand to keep. I went with 2xLLotV, 2xVeteran, Intent and 2 lands.
Leyline obviously bought me time as he only cantrip for his first turns, while I play my Veterans for a few swings. I am not sure what to do T4 (I think), while I am stuck on 2 lands. I cast Intent, but can't really afford going for Helm since I can't cast it yet. I hesitate between Brutality or Therapy. I would have named Infernal Tutor if I went for Therapy. I decided for Brutality, escalated with the 2nd Leyline for discard and drain him to get me on 21 life. He reveals 2 Tutors (sigh...), LED (sigher...), Duress and 2 lands. I have to take the Duress and cannot prevent Ad Nauseam to come at his turn. He starts on 14 life and goes down to 3 life, without any means to go off. His hand is full gain though, and I only have a Veteran to face him. I eventually draw a Cabal Therapy to take down a Tutor, and choose not to Flashback as I deem his hand much less better with the tutor. I poke for 1 damage, taking him on 2 life. His draw is still good, as he now threatens me with 20 Goblins... I draw a meaningless card and pass turn. He swings with 17 tokens, as I am on 21 life and have a Veteran Defender. No block takes me down to 4.
I draw GSZ for the win: GSZ into witness with my only 4 lands, which brings back Brutality. Flashback Therapy with the Veteran for 2 lands and play Brutality for the final drain!
Phew... that one was close.
I guess the gameplan would have been better to get Therapy in the first place with Intent. I would have hit the Tutors, and flashbacked for the LED, in exchange of 2 more lands for him and almost an emtpy hand... but then it's a different game. I got lucky I guess?
G2 / OTD - My 7s are LLotV, GSZ, 2xTourach, Tracker, Fetch and Tower. He goes Duress 1 and takes down GSZ. Calling for 'annoying GSZ'. I draw a Zenith like a champ, and plays it for Dryad Arbor, with the idea to go at least for a Tourach T2. He goes Nauseam T2 straight, starting at 17 life and falls down at 1 life revealing IT, IT, LED, Cabal Ritual, Cantrips, Islands and Fetches, Dark Petition, and eventually a Dark Ritual. He cannot fetch, so he lands a Island for Brainstorm, and fails finding the Lotus Petal. He just bring his hand forward before the Dryad could swing (of GSZ nuisance..., see Opp. comments earlier :p)
Sad day for Nauseam...

R6 - Buddy playing, Big Red - 2-1 // 6-4
My Opp is a friend with same stats, and we debate about the MU being bad for him if we get paired... before the pairing of course Xp.
An air of repairing floats around, making him happy to pass on that MU. No repairing --> him swearing at me :D
G1 / OTD - Stupidest game ever? I am under Mull-4, and still win this game. I had a flooded 7, a 1 lander at 6, no land at 5 (equivalent to the Mull4). Fall to 4 with GSZ, Tracker, LLotV, and a useless card (can't recall which one, definitely not a land). I just think: "what the hell, I am too bored to Mulligan more". Scry into a land :D, and off he goes with Mox, Land and Chalice@1. I draw and drop my land to pass turn. He follows with Trinisphere, I have time, all fine with me. I draw card and pass turn. Greater-Ape-Of-All-Times-comes-down ::fear::. I eventually find my 3rd land to play GSZ into Veteran Explorer, making the Great Ape Humble. Follows Tutor for Helm ^__^...
G2 / OTD - That's another strange game. Nothing happens for a while although he comes with Chalice, Magus and Trini for his first turns. This cuts me off B-mana for a few turns (I had only Forests and Tower in the 7), enough for him to lead the race. I play a Witness for a land I think, and later eventually find a black mana for a big Brutality (drain/discard/-2). I get hit by a Confluence first, discard another one, and take the Magus down. He resolves Chandra who will burn me down slowly. I draw Witness into Witness into Brutality, as I want to try and race Chandra, him being at 8 (because of Tomb). Sad thing is his Chalice drawing, as he plays it on 2 to stop the coming Brutality. I can only swing once with double Witnesses before being burned to hell by Chandra.
G3 / OTP - He is on Mulligan 5, and while I opened LLotV, GSZ and Tutor. Combo comes fast.

R7 - Burn (but I don't know it at that moment)
I am 4th at that moment, first at 15 points. I am paired with #3 on ranking, and 5-1-1 goes through top8, so we go ID.

I end up 6th, and get paired to my opponent of round 7
1/4 - Burn - 2-1 // 8-5
G1 / OTP- There's nothing much I could do here. Despite LLotV in the 7, I fail at finding the Helm before being burnt down.
G2 / OTP - Blind Therapy on Lava Spike. It's a hit! He sends me out a Goblin Guide and burns me some. I take down an Eidolon with Brutality, and get burned some more. Baloth cheers me up from 7 to 11, and now looks into Goblin Guide and Swiftspear's eyes. Opp finds blast, swings with the Goblin Guide which reveals an Eternal Witness. I block with Baloth and he just cancels his plan to burn the Baloth, as it would give me 4 more life. I play Witness for Brutality/Drain and pass. I draw another Witness into Brutality to take down the Swiftspear and beat him down to death.
G3 / OTD - We both Mull.6. I take my traditional 3 dmg spell on T1. Go blind/hit Therapy on Eidolon, leaving my Opp with PoP and Rift Bolt. His hand is quickly empty plus he gets flooded, while I find a Baloth to stand up, and find the combo on top.

1/2 - Event winner, Turbo Depth - 0-2 // 8-7
G1 / OTP - Not much I can do here, although I start with LLotV. Marit Lage comes before the Helm...
G2 / OTP - I open LLotV, Needle, Diabolic Edict, Bitterblossom, Deed, Land Land. I play Needle for Stage, he Duress my Edict. I play Bitterblossom T2 when he just drops Stage. T3 Brutality takes down a Surgical (he was tired and forgot to fire it ^^), and shows me 3 Dark Depth, a Bog and a Ghost Quarter. He draws easily the Hexmage, and then an Expedition Map that will find Sejiri Steppe to go over the Faeries. :(


Here are my feedback:

It's funny, I only had suspicious match-ups, and I lost the one MU that was positive to me (Czech pile).
(Ok this Nic Fit mirror, who just loses to Deed was also positive..., and a Nic Fit mirror is suspicious anyways, right? xD)
What I want to say is that this event may not representative of whether the deck is just fine (which is how it felt), or if it can shine better.

On the MD:
I never missed Nissa and her 5/5 beater, neither the 4th Tracker. And to be honest, I can see Steve Tracker being a beast, but it did not shine to me on that event. Not to mention I missed some landfall triggers, just because it was only my 2nd time playing her. But none of those misses came critical though. Anyways I was never the Aggro-beater, excepted for Baloths rushing into Lili's face for example.
Some guy asked about how only 9 creatures felt with Intent? Well it did not feel bad. I wouldn't play a 3rd Intent, and not necessarily more creatures just to feed Intent. What must be said is that all your Fetches are a Dryad, and GSZ are 3+ buddies. With that the balance is decent I think.
Nixilis to be honest was dropped only once, after I cast 2 Hymns and a Library. I mean, you play anything after that and you win. So it did not shine per say. Still to be pondered I think.
I think everyone said it, but Brutality is INSANE !!! It was my first time playing it, and how many times have I discarded my 2nd Leyline to it... It's just perfect in this deck for all the modes. 2 of that is great, I am not sure I would love a 3rd one though. And it totally changes the Burn MU, which I expected to be not positive at all with this deck.
I could see some edits there, maybe cutting out the Nixilis', and play in some Ranumap Excavators and a few Wasteland. But that might be too cute and not efficient enough?

On the SB: I would just balance getting a Ensnaring Bridge in? Needle is an easy out. I was happy of the SB overall, the INs and OUTs were easy and never too weird to do.

And at the end of the day, I can see myself play that deck again.
Hope you wanna play that deck to hate Czech pile a bit ;)

edit: There was a 3rd Nic Fit in the room, he was playing Rhino beat-down. I didn't get a chance to talk to hm and check on his record.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Crocodile of the Crossing! Same CMC, worst case scenario same power and dies to Bolt to boot but at least can't be killed by a lone 1+/x.

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Rather use Surrak, bigger body, likely still has haste, probably gives every future body haste.

Edit: Further expanding that thought, the -1/-1 counter is a pretty big deal in a deck like this. It outright kills half the creatures in my deck, and the other half it makes them unable to contribute to board presence. I think it's a bad choice when I can just have Surrak as a 5/4 on his own. Worth noting, Surrak+Tracker play real well together.

I used Timbermare as good Walker killer. It's cheap, it has haste, and have better ability then Trample.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

I used Timbermare as good Walker killer. It's cheap, it has haste, and have better ability then Trample.

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Interesting, I'll consider that one. Mistcutter Hydra is on my list if Surrak doesn't work out, but Mistcutter is something you can't GSZ (though it plays real nice with Bob and Ranger of Eos). On the other hand, pro blue is pretty relevant since it gets around TNN, Snap, Strix, and Delver.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Interesting, I'll consider that one. Mistcutter Hydra is on my list if Surrak doesn't work out, but Mistcutter is something you can't GSZ (though it plays real nice with Bob and Ranger of Eos). On the other hand, pro blue is pretty relevant since it gets around TNN, Snap, Strix, and Delver.

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Same is true for Timbermare adding it also DMG over Drs and any other walls like Angler, but it is also GSZable, but it has it's cost - echo is really painful, specially with such high cost in world of watelands.

As hoped, I was able to get a lot of Legacy in tonight. Not an official tournament, just a bunch of games, I played the above list.
5 games vs Sneak and Show, I won 4 and lost the 5th only due to messing up on a Collective Brutality. I chose discard only instead of discard+ping (pitching a useless Abrupt Decay).
2 games vs RUG Delver, I won both.
2 games vs Lands, I won both but one was a fluke (the opponents deck just didn't function).

So in games that's an 8-1 record. The deck held it's own against combo and did well against the blue midrange meta prey still.

I was very happy with it. The only card I'm still not sure on is Carnage Tyrant as he never hit the field.

Well, seems you don't need it to achieve victory.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Well, seems you don't need it to achieve victory.

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To be fair, I didn't play the matches where I would want it. But the fact that I never even wanted to cast it does say something.

Oh, and I can't stress enough how much sequencing matters. In the first RUG Delver game he's on the play, and knows what I'm playing, but I don't know his deck. He goes Misty Rainforest, pass. I open on Forest/Vet. Next turn I play a Bayou and Therapy (and miss). I see 2 lands, double daze, double stifle in hand. Fortunately, I had a second Therapy. So I waited a turn, while he played a Mongoose. Then I cast Therapy #2, He dazed, I paid, he fetched (leaving him with no untapped mana), then I fetched, causing him to not use Daze #2. Named Stifle, got both, flashbacked, took his Daze and got my Vet triggers, leaving me with 3 mana on board, which went into Toxic Deluge killing his Mongoose. And I still had a Bob+GSZ in hand to my opponents 2 lands.

That was fun.

Yup, sequencing and timing (i.e. knowing when to bide your time and when to go for it) are vital.

5-0'ed a local event with a list very similar to Arianrhod's (thanks!).

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging ooze
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Regisaur Alpha
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
1x Carnage Tyrant

3x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift

3x Abrupt Decay

2x Nissa, Vital Force

2x Sylvan Library
3x Pernicious Deed

4x Badlands
4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1x Scapeshift
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Pyroclasm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Innocent Blood
1x Lost Legacy
2x Slaughter Games
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pulse of Murasa
1x Tireless Tracker

I originally added the Ooze to the deck as a 61st card, before realizing it was already 61 cards. Thought it was worth having access to some graveyard hate, so added it in and moved a Tracker to the board (where it could maybe be replaced by an Eternal Witness (which could also take the place of Pulse of Murasa?) or a planeswalker like Chandra or Liliana, the Last Hope). I wasn't sure about the Bolts in the board - other than killing planeswalkers (and would one bring them in just for that?), it seemed like Fatal Push or maybe Diabolic Edict would also work. Also considered replacing a Thoughtseize with a Collective Brutality or having a Sorcerous Spyglass somewhere. With Green Sun's Zenith and Burning Wish, the number of options available to pick the last couple cards is large.

Seemed to run pretty well, given it was my first time with this version of Nic Fit. Ultimating Nissa, Vital Force is amazing.

Congrats on the result!

Played a bit more with mine, finally saw Carnage Tyrant do something, but it was win more. In essence, thanks to the trample it took a turn off getting through an army of tokens.

Feels a bit too high a CMC though. I like having a trample option though.

Looking for alternatives, I came across the card Creeperhulk. Has anyone ever tried this? GSZ'able, reasonable enough stats, pumps your team, makes blocking real difficult for the opponent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

Played a bit more with mine, finally saw Carnage Tyrant do something, but it was win more. In essence, thanks to the trample it took a turn off getting through an army of tokens.

Feels a bit too high a CMC though. I like having a trample option though.

Looking for alternatives, I came across the card Creeperhulk. Has anyone ever tried this? GSZ'able, reasonable enough stats, pumps your team, makes blocking real difficult for the opponent.

---

What you say about Tyrant is about what I feel about Nixilis the very few times I played him.
I didn't know Creeperhulk, and it looks like a real good target for GSZ. And Surrak can handle the Haste part.
In a sense, it's similar to Titania, although she's less interesting in your beating angle. Titania is great for lands shenanigans.

I must say you list is very interesting for its consistency aspect.

I have one curious question though. Are you happy with only 1 Deed?
On your list I would play a 2nd one rather than the Pulse. You have enough power to beat down PWs, isn't it?

nico : remember our match ? how well did bob fit fares VS deed ? I think that's why brael only plays one deed in bob fit :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vilnico

What you say about Tyrant is about what I feel about Nixilis the very few times I played him.
I didn't know Creeperhulk, and it looks like a real good target for GSZ. And Surrak can handle the Haste part.
In a sense, it's similar to Titania, although she's less interesting in your beating angle. Titania is great for lands shenanigans.

I must say you list is very interesting for its consistency aspect.

I have one curious question though. Are you happy with only 1 Deed?
On your list I would play a 2nd one rather than the Pulse. You have enough power to beat down PWs, isn't it?

---

1 Deed is fine, I like having one so that there's an option to draw it when it's good, but my list doesn't play all that great with Deed. Between Tracker, Bob, and DRS, 10 out of my ~19 creatures are weak against Deed. I actually prefer Toxic Deluge to Deed in most situations since a Deluge is better at dealing with the creatures combo decks put out. I play 1 deed as effectively my 3rd Abrupt Decay as a way to hit non creature permanents while still occasionally letting me set up a 1 sided board wipe.

Out of the 3 drop removal suite, I like Pulse the least, but it covers edge cases like Planeswalkers that the other two don't, so I go with the split on everything. If I were to drop the Pulse it would be for another Deluge.

Well you two guys are oriented on a beast shell, but made different choices on the sweeper option.
While I can see it being anti-synergic for you Plm, I think Nic Fit likes to have a reset button like Brael has.
That's why I find it sensible to still play 1 or 2 Deed.

In a way, Plm you are all-in aggro, at the cost of weakening the control nature of the deck?
While Brael still keeps control options. That's a matter of gameplan/style I guess at this point.

In any case, Brael your explanation makes sense. And I agree Pulse is the weakest slot of the 3. Have you considered Yahenni's -3/-3 (forgot it's name, Revenge is it?), that lets you play a 3ccm card after that?
That could be a good replacement to Pulse?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vilnico

While Brael still keeps control options. That's a matter of gameplan/style I guess at this point.

In any case, Brael your explanation makes sense. And I agree Pulse is the weakest slot of the 3. Have you considered Yahenni's -3/-3 (forgot it's name, Revenge is it?), that lets you play a 3ccm card after that?
That could be a good replacement to Pulse?

---

I like that Pulse can hit enchantments and artifacts, it (very rarely) nabs multiple cards at once too. If I were looking for just creature removal the slot would be either another Toxic Deluge, an Innocent Blood, or a To the Slaughter.

My control options aren't something I think of as control. I see it as a format tax. Decks in Legacy do powerful, degenerate things and attack on a wide axis. Successful decks need a mix of a clock, counterspells, discard/prison, and removal. The clock is non optional, that's why I'm so negative towards the durdle heavy decks. In those other three categories you need a minimum of two. If you don't interact, you won't win games. That's probably why I tend to do so well in combo heavy fields, I have much more interaction for those sorts of tricks than most Nic Fit lists do.

Pulse major selling point is killing planeswalker koff jace koff :tongue:

Looks like someone 5-0'd with the Enchantment-heavy version:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Helm of Obedience
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 To the Slaughter
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

There's a stream of it somewhere too. It's so damn funny :laugh:

Can't wait to take my own list out for a test drive!

Happy to see this deck gaining traction. Pity though, because people @ my LGS seemed to have thought i invented this deck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

There's a stream of it somewhere too. It's so damn funny :laugh:

Can't wait to take my own list out for a test drive!

---

This was posted on Reddit recently:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/205043425 [edit: tricked by Reddit, new link should be the one]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

For one, a lot of the discussion has moved to the discord -- which has slowed this thread down a bit and the subreddit down to a crawl.

---

Forgot to ask about this when it was mentioned. What's the discord link?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brael

Forgot to ask about this when it was mentioned. What's the discord link?

---

https://discordapp.com/invite/RSMwwvU

I found it when they did the podcast episode and had it linked through the reddit page.

Thoughts on this list?

Deck: Legacy TideFit

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard


4 Veteran Explorer
4 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
3 Ponder
1 Read the Runes
4 Hatching Plans
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Perilous Research
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
1 Pore Over the Pages
9 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard:15
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Pact of Negation
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Read the Runes
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Krosan Grip
1 Turnabout


Created with Decked Builder
http://www.deckedbuilder.com/

Edit: ok so my own thoughts. Nicfit is a great ramp engine and what deck benefits from tons of basics more than a deck that turns basics into tombs, workshops etc. This list is meant to make land drop and ramp with Explorers until it can draw 5+ cards on opponent endstep to start the fundamental turn. The deck is supposed to draw enough cards to not need to run spiral (which has the downside of drawing your opponent new counterspells). In a meta where kcommand isnt tier 1 candelabra is probably a good addition.

My fear is that you take a slow combo deck and try to graft in a slow ramp package (cabal and crop cost 1 while you've got 3 research and the tutors for them that cost one million mana ) and a slow CA engine. Not sure how it fits together.

As I hadn't tried it I have no idea if it's better than spannish inquisition fit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plm

My fear is that you take a slow combo deck and try to graft in a slow ramp package (cabal and crop cost 1 while you've got 3 research and the tutors for them that cost one million mana ) and a slow CA engine. Not sure how it fits together.

As I hadn't tried it I have no idea if it's better than spannish inquisition fit.

---

There's certainly some truth in that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TLK

Looks like someone 5-0'd with the Enchantment-heavy version:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
3 Evolutionary Leap
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Helm of Obedience
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 To the Slaughter
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sandwurm Convergence
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

---

I played this deck (with a few changes) in the challenge sunday, and got an honorable 4-2 result. Overwhelming Splendor is such a beating against almost everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cartesian

I played this deck (with a few changes) in the challenge sunday, and got an honorable 4-2 result. Overwhelming Splendor is such a beating against almost everything.

---

How'd you feel about the list you ran? Notably, I'm curious about the Garruks, Mirri's Guile vs Sylvan Library, and 2 Curse of Death's Hold. The sideboard also looks very different from other Enchantment Nic Fit lists, curious to know if anything overperformed / underperformed during the challenge.

List for reference:

Planeswalker (2)
2 Garruk Relentless

Creature (9)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (14)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lingering Souls

Instant (2)
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantment (11)
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
2 Evolutionary Leap
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Pernicious Deed

Land (22)
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom
1 Choke
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Compost
2 Duress
1 Karakas
1 Replenish
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge