[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

I also thought about replacing Green with white, but I did not test it yet.

Not sure if Stoneforge > Goyf in TA, because:
- so far we did not really care about lightning bolt
- we don't have so much W as other stoneforge lists, so wasting 1 land, could stop us from playing batterskull
- Stoneforge is more "midrangy" (setting up the fatty/sword), and TA is a tempo deck
- not sure if the G SB/MD options are better than W...close call: deed, pulse, loam, sylvan libray, krosan grip are nice cards!... especially deed > EE!

TA could definetly need some help versus Merfolk, but their dominance is taking care of by the metagame. I think Batterskull does not help TA as much as other lists versus Merfolk, because of wasteland and a T2/3 Goyf blocks earlier than batterskull. Anyway key is to keep Lord of Atlantis from the table.

Versus other Aggro matches, I don't think TA matchup is bad (I mean the classic list withoug confidant).
Versus midrange Jace is key as already mentionend and also helps versus control. The correct use of Stifle is key versus control.

I don't think running confidant and tombstalker (& Force of Will & maybe Jace) is viable on the long term. it just gives too much away to aggro decks.

I am running a list of 4 Goyf, 4 Tombstaker, 2 V-Clique. I think the clique helps in almost any matchups and provides disruption & a clock which is exactly what TA does.

Hey, what do u think about classic TA(stalkers/goyfs/jaces) vs uw stoneblade.And vs maverick?
My meta is filled with these decks so i cant decide if i should play TA or go for something else:Z

Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

So over the last few months I've been trying endlessly to fit bob and stalker in the same deck, but after many attempts I can honestly say those who advised against him were right he doesn't belong in TA. The draw is awesome and the life loss can usually be mitigated. The problem is the deck can't reliably close out games with less than 4 stalkers, or 4 goyfs.
Needless to say I have now come full circle back to TA. Here is my proposed list for which I would like some critique:

Lands
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island

Creatures
4 tombstalker
4 tarmogoyf

Artifacts
2 engineered explosives

Enchantments
2 sylvan library
2 bitterblossom

Permission
4 force of will
3 mental misstep
2 daze

Disruption
4 hymn to tourach
4 stifle

Removal
2 go for the throat
2 snuff out

Cantrips
4 brainstorm
3 ponder


Some card explanations- I have been running 19 lands lately as the deck curves out at 2cc. Basics are for wasteland and keep my draw and sb cards like kgrip and loam active.
Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro. I am really looking for thoughts on these choices.
EE I chose over deed for the speed I.e split casting as well as color requirements allowing it to stay viable with my basics.
Lastly I have dropped to only 2 ponder in part due to double library compensating (think jace) and alsoadmittedly due to limited space. (Edit- added 3rd ponder for 61 cards)
So, some viable choices here or not?
Sorry for any errors, posting from my droid :)

i cannot understand how you can be unimpressed by V Clique. Really shines in TA.

I love sylvan library, but it is a card that is good for longer games. Ponder can support the early game much better.

It seems that Bitterblossom does not seem to support the gameplan very well. We do not have equipments to add value to 1/1 flyers... But maybe I am wrong. Did not test it yet.

My main problem with clique, other than costing 1uu, is that it provides very little board presence and dies to a stiff fart. I do actually really like clique quite a bit but I'm looking for something..more.
I have used bitterblossom in several other decks and even without jitte most people consider it a must answer threat, whereas lately clique has felt more like a 3cc duress.
On second thought I think adding a 3rd ponder as the 61st card is the lesser of two evils.

I prefer the more streamlined versions of the list (mine seem to work out well for me), and I mitigated the low threat density by adding more cantrips. Right now I play:

4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

I've also tried to go down to 19 lands (8 fetches, 4 Wasteland, 4 UGsea, 2 Trops, 1 Bayou), and it hasn't really been much of a problem when it comes to amount of mana and colours because of the many fetches and because of the cantrips. Further, playing many cantrips allows me to more reliably find the answers I need, like sideboarded cards, for example.

Playing several 2-ofs looks very unelegant to me, and especially running just two Daze seems plain wrong. Maindeck EE might be warranted in some metas, and I had them too from the beginning, but cut them eventually. Sylvan Library is a card I have yet to test properly for myself, on paper it looks really good, but I'm afraid of having it compete with more powerful two-drops in the deck (Goyf, Hymn) in practice. If it works for you, then sure. I would never play less than 4 Brainstorms, 4 Ponders in this deck anyway, despite the Libraries, since the cantrips helps find you answers quicker than Library, and it feeds the graveyard for Tombstalker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro.

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In my experience, Bitterblossom isn't very good versus agro, especially with so little removal. It usually ends up being a slow Maze of Ith that pings you every turn. I'd drop them for the 8th cantrip and maybe a Spell Snare (another answer for Dark Confidant/SFM/Goyf) or extra piece of removal (Smother/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse).

Bitterblossom is solid versus control, but TA is favored there anyway. And I think there are better options if you wanted to pad that match up regardless - Jace TMS, Cliques, Thrun, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro.

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In my experience, Bitterblossom isn't very good versus agro, especially with so little removal. It usually ends up being a slow Maze of Ith that pings you every turn. I'd drop them for the 8th cantrip and maybe a Spell Snare (another answer for Dark Confidant/SFM/Goyf) or extra piece of removal (Smother/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse).

Bitterblossom is solid versus control, but TA is favored there anyway. And I think there are better options if you wanted to pad that match up regardless - Jace TMS, Cliques, Thrun, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

Bitterblossom is solid versus control, but TA is favored there anyway. And I think there are better options if you wanted to pad that match up regardless - Jace TMS, Cliques, Thrun, etc.

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We ar not favourite against control. It is a hell of a fight and in general more like 40:60 for them. A MUC list with schackles, back to basics and energy field is very tough to beat for us!

Ive been playing the deck with lorescale coatl and I like this dude alright.....I know hes a 1ug but the blue helps support the forces and this guy is sick with brainstorm,jace and is not bad with ponder either....If you run sylvan library he awesome with that also...If unanswerd quickly he becomes a gigantic ass beater...Brainstorm becomes like a permanent giant growth....Also hes not conditional on having a graveyard to cast or to beef him up......

Ok so I just lost everything I wrote. Heres the short version. Purgatory: try the double library you wont be disappointed. Re daze I dropped to 2 because the threat of daze is still just as good and many decks I play can out grow dazes reach pretty quickly at times. Also each daze takes up a corresponding sb slot.

Cairo: I ve always had a hard time with control. I considered jace but his 4cc messes with this deck too much imo forcing us to play more lands for those 2-3 cards and changes our wasteland timing and strategy. Not worth it imo.

Will trygon predator be a good addition against stoneforge decks and others?
I agree Clique > predator, but maybe some sort of combination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Kellyx: My local meta is pretty aggro heavy and I know I have a real hard time against maverick, not sure about stoneblade.

So over the last few months I've been trying endlessly to fit bob and stalker in the same deck, but after many attempts I can honestly say those who advised against him were right he doesn't belong in TA. The draw is awesome and the life loss can usually be mitigated. The problem is the deck can't reliably close out games with less than 4 stalkers, or 4 goyfs.
Needless to say I have now come full circle back to TA. Here is my proposed list for which I would like some critique:

Lands
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island

Creatures
4 tombstalker
4 tarmogoyf

Artifacts
2 engineered explosives

Enchantments
2 sylvan library
2 bitterblossom

Permission
4 force of will
3 mental misstep
2 daze

Disruption
4 hymn to tourach
4 stifle

Removal
2 go for the throat
2 snuff out

Cantrips
4 brainstorm
3 ponder


Some card explanations- I have been running 19 lands lately as the deck curves out at 2cc. Basics are for wasteland and keep my draw and sb cards like kgrip and loam active.
Bitterblossom is actually hypothetical at this point, the reason is I have been pretty unimpressed with clique and I have tested all other suitable replacements. 2 BB along with 2 EE, 2 library and 4 hymn give the deck a great deal of CA/virtual CA and keep my curve at 2. Until recent I had never played with more than 1 library but I absolutely love running 2, these can both be replaced with loam from the board for landstill. Speaking of landstill, I am thinking BB in the main is gonna shine and will also help with aggro. I am really looking for thoughts on these choices.
EE I chose over deed for the speed I.e split casting as well as color requirements allowing it to stay viable with my basics.
Lastly I have dropped to only 2 ponder in part due to double library compensating (think jace) and alsoadmittedly due to limited space. (Edit- added 3rd ponder for 61 cards)
So, some viable choices here or not?
Sorry for any errors, posting from my droid :)

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I don't know what is the level of your game but it has to be high if you count to succeed with this deck. TA will punish your mediocre plays and like many of the authors of the comments here you may not know even why.

There is no justification to run less than 4 misstep in TA. 2 Daze is too few especially since you have 0 spell costing more than 2. Engineered explosives main?? If you want to control anything but tempo this is not the deck for.

I already said some posts ago that TA has to adapt the post misstep era with stoneforge and jace control decks all around. TA was a deck build to CRUSH control and combo decks and if you can't beat those 2 don't play this deck, zoo/burn are not what you are hunting but UW stoneforge is. So anyone who can't beat UW in regular basis is not playing this deck correctly or does not have a list suited for the actual metagame. Seriously when you play a deck with 4 Stifle, 4 Hymn, 3-4 Daze, 4 Wasteland, 4 FOW and you still lose to a Jace deck there is a problem.

I am playing an UB build with 4 stalker 2 vendilion and 2 Jace main and i have no problem beating anything that is not playing goblin guide T1. Jace never resolves vs me. Stoneforge is either countered, killed, stifled, cliqued or her equipment hymned. She is never better than squire.

TL:DR - What do you recommend in TA's sideboard in an Affinity heavy meta-game?

I'm new to the deck after getting turned on to it by some advice from people here. I've got about 20 games under my belt with a very old list on MTGO and I'm liking it very much so far.

I have been struggling with the Affinity match up though, and I'm looking to put some hate in the sideboard. Is there a consensus recommendation?

The first thing that came to mind was Energy Flux.

Should I be winning this match up anyway and it is just a case of, "doing it wrong"? If that isn't the case should I be packing Energy Flux in the board or is there something much better than I'm missing?

I've thought about Pernicious Deed but it seems like it would be too slow.

Thank you for your input Dr. Jones. Can you post your list? I am interested to see how 2 jace and 2 v-clique fit into TA MD.

Concerning affinity. My favourite hate piece is Null Rod. Very effective if you also youse wasteland aggressively and MM their springleave drum. 2 deeds come in vs. affinty as well. I also play 2 pulse main to kill a plating that slipped through. From there on it is a very good matchup!

The good thing about Null Rod is that it is also prime versus Metalworker and Painted Stone..

Thank you for your input Dr. Jones. Can you post your list? I am interested to see how 2 jace and 2 v-clique fit into TA MD.

Concerning affinity. My favourite hate piece is Null Rod. Very effective if you also youse wasteland aggressively and MM their springleave drum. 2 deeds come in vs. affinty as well. I also play 2 pulse main to kill a plating that slipped through. From there on it is a very good matchup!

The good thing about Null Rod is that it is also prime versus Metalworker and Painted Stone..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

Thank you for your input Dr. Jones. Can you post your list? I am interested to see how 2 jace and 2 v-clique fit into TA MD.

Concerning affinity. My favourite hate piece is Null Rod. Very effective if you also youse wasteland aggressively and MM their springleave drum. 2 deeds come in vs. affinty as well. I also play 2 pulse main to kill a plating that slipped through. From there on it is a very good matchup!

The good thing about Null Rod is that it is also prime versus Metalworker and Painted Stone..

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sure,

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

2 Dismember
2 Diabolic Edict

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Perish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Recoil
1 JTMS

This build without Goyf is better vs Hivemind, ANT, UW Stoneforge, UW Landstill, BUGstill, Maverick, Big Zoo, NO RUG, Painter, Dragon Stompy and all mana disruptive strategies

and worse vs Fast Zoo, Burn and Affinity (all MUs where you need a T3 Goyf)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freddy

TL:DR - What do you recommend in TA's sideboard in an Affinity heavy meta-game?

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If Affinity or Stax are a strong presence in your metagame, Energy Flux is the best card to beat them. Basically, unless they are able to kill you the turn after you drop Flux, Affinity will have their entire board wiped in short order since their lands are all artifacts and you just win. However, Flux is rather narrow.

Pernicious Deed is slow, but it is a complete blow-out against the decks you want to use it against. Merfolk is a tough matchup for TA and most of my post SB games against them have been won thanks to Deeding away their entire board. It also hoses Affinity, random noob aggro.dec, and outlier decks like Enchantress. I've never been disappointed with the card because it's so versatile. It needs to be backed up with cheap instant speed removal though.

You could considere stuff like Phyrexian Revoker or Pithing Needle, naming Cranial Plating, but I've never been too happy with these cards in the sideboard.

Echo what wcm8 said. There's plenty of narrow cards you could play but I think Deed is overall the best option. Even playing it for 3 and activating it blows up all their lands, which could easily be enough to win. The key, as against all aggressive decks is not just to rely on deed but have enough spot removal before that to preserve your life and make them commit more to the board. I don't think null rod or energy flux are any good, they're way too narrow.
Engineered explosives is also very good against affinity.

Quote:

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I don't know what is the level of your game but it has to be high if you count to succeed with this deck. TA will punish your mediocre plays and like many of the authors of the comments here you may not know even why.

There is no justification to run less than 4 misstep in TA. 2 Daze is too few especially since you have 0 spell costing more than 2. Engineered explosives main?? If you want to control anything but tempo this is not the deck for.

I already said some posts ago that TA has to adapt the post misstep era with stoneforge and jace control decks all around. TA was a deck build to CRUSH control and combo decks and if you can't beat those 2 don't play this deck, zoo/burn are not what you are hunting but UW stoneforge is. So anyone who can't beat UW in regular basis is not playing this deck correctly or does not have a list suited for the actual metagame. Seriously when you play a deck with 4 Stifle, 4 Hymn, 3-4 Daze, 4 Wasteland, 4 FOW and you still lose to a Jace deck there is a problem.

I am playing an UB build with 4 stalker 2 vendilion and 2 Jace main and i have no problem beating anything that is not playing goblin guide T1. Jace never resolves vs me. Stoneforge is either countered, killed, stifled, cliqued or her equipment hymned. She is never better than squire.

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Yes thanks for your analysis Dr.Jones. The level of my game is probably far below many of the people on this forum, which is why I am here. Hopefully my game will advance, but no need to be rude.

The list I posted above was from work and I am already questioning BB myself but since I had not seen it played or suggested recently in this thread I figured it might be worthwhile to throw it out there since it seems TA does need to adapt in some way, as your own u/b list is evidence of. Nice list btw, seems very close to dreadstalker...without the dread. I have considered edict in the main so I am curious what your experiences are with it. Also dismember seems subpar compared to other options due mostly to KotR but also for other common creatures above 5/5.

Concerning other card choices- I have always played 4 misstep. The (partially) hypothetical list I posted included only 3 because I have never tested less than 4 misstep and I have seen other tempo based decks using 3 missteps to good results. Obviously 4 Is prefereable but I had to cut something.

As for daze, your comment on cc has me seriously reconsidering including the 3rd/4th daze. Havent you encountered problems hitting 4 mana for Jace with 4 daze + wasteland/opposing wastelands?
Again there are plenty of decks that utilize only 2 and even 1 daze but you are right about my decks extremely low curve so dully noted, and thanks.

Re stoneforge: I have not really played vs. stoneblade as I previously stated, rather it is maverick and other similar aggro-midrange aggro decks that have been giving me the most problems lately. EE has proven to be very useful in these matchups as well as giving me a MB answer to artifacts, BtB and moon effects. I prefer EE over deed because deed is often slower and more strenuous at times on my mana base. Perhaps a couple maelstrom pulse could substitute though, hmmm.

Lastly I realize TA is designed to crush combo but my local meta is infested with aggro (more of a general trend in legacy it seems) and I enjoy playing this deck so I am not going to just drop my favorite deck to pick up something more suited to the environment. Rather I am going to try and adapt to it.

I look forward to more of your insight and that of others as well.