[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

I fully agree that Sharuum does get around one problem: winning without attacking. Unfortunately, it is highly slow and cumbersome in Ichorid, for all those reasons already mentioned. Thankfully, there might be some better options. Two come to mind, one of them admittedly better than the other.

1. Hasty Leviathan (Second-best idea)
Kederekt Leviathan 6UU
Creature — Leviathan
When Kederekt Leviathan enters the battlefield, return all other nonland permanents to their owners' hands.
Unearth 6Blue (6Blue: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step or if it would leave the battlefield. Unearth only as a sorcery.)
5 / 5

Dragon Breath (Ala Cephalid Breakfast fame)

Here's how this one works. Dread Return the Leviathan. You control both the CIP triggers for Dragon Breath and Leviathan, so put the Breath on the stack first with the bounce on top of it. Bounce resolves, getting rid of all those nasty enchantments and creatures, and then Breath attaches to the Leviathan. You swing for 5. Then you flashback Therapy on your Leviathan, naming all of the problematic cards that have just returned to your opponent's hand.
Advantages: If the opponent has a lot of artifact/enchantment mana sources that have been powering his deck, then he might not be able to recast all of his cards for next turn. If your opponent has been relying on a few threats, then you can discard them forever.
Disadvantages: Only deals 5 damage. Destroys all your hard won Bridge tokens. If the opponent has more threats than you have Therapy, he can recast his cards (like Elephant Grass, Moat, Confinement), then this is only a temporary solution to a persistent problem. Need both Breath and Leviathan in the yard.
Overall: A decent plan if your opponent is locking you down with only one or two cards. The more hatred, however, the less effective this combo is.

2. Furystoke Giant
Furystoke Giant 3RR
Creature — Giant Warrior
When Furystoke Giant enters the battlefield, other creatures you control gain "Tap: This creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player" until end of turn.
Persist (When this creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
3 / 3

Giant is a much better solution to the problem of winning without attacking. Unlike Leviathan, Giant has exceptional synergy with your bridge tokens, Narco's, Ichorids, Ghasts, etc. It also is useful in more matchups. You can tap your guys to destroy opposing hordes if you are out of range of just outright killing your opponent.
Giant gets exceptionally nutty with Greater Gargodon in the board (for the control matchup). You can sacrifice the Giant as an instant, in response to anything that your opponent does. This will immediately bring him back into play courtesy of Persist, giving all of your Zombies and friends the damage ability. This can be invaluable. Consider a Lands opponent with Glacial Chasm. It is customary to forgo the Chasm upkeep cost, because you can Loam it back later. But if in response to his failure to pay the cost you bring back Giant, you can immediately throw logs at him to death (or whatever it is that the Giant causes your creatures to do)
Advantages: All those listed above.
Disadvantages: Requires other creatures to already be in play. Only circumvents Chasm/Confinement when you have Gargadon as an instant sacrifice outlet.
Overall: This is an extremely strong inclusion to Ichorid lists. It gives you a scary bag of tricks for use in a lot of difficult matchups, most specifically Lands (courtesy of Chasm) and Enchantress (Moat and such).

I have not tested these yet, although I imagine that the Giant strategy has a lot of potential and power in the deck. It only takes up one more slot and is helpful in all matchups. I will test this idea and give more thoughts later.

-ktkenshinx-

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

2. Furystoke Giant

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I don't normally post here, but I saw this post about Furystoke Giant. I played him in LED-version, replacing the Woodfall Primus slot of my SB (the utility slot that is also reserved for Angel of Despair, etc). I realize that you don't combo out so quickly, so it's great to take advantage of this guy. I personally think he's a great inclusion if you want something techy, but never got to fully utilize him in the LED-version (too fast / hit or miss to take full advantage). Anyhow, it's a great find.

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

I don't see it going down game 1 I see it either staying the same or maybe increasing do to it improving 2 of our bad MU's.

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Maybe Sharuum belongs in the sideboard?

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How many of you less then a month ago cut all DR targets from the main, why?

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Probably like... two people did this. As for why, it increases consistency at the cost of not having an "oops I win" scenario, but bringing back a 20/20 grave-troll wins 90% of the games that bringing back FKZ wins. You lose the Iona lock, but again, you gain consistency.

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Still I'm not saying this is correct but I'm testing this so I know for myself the answers to these questions.

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At least you are trying to appear reasonable. You should at least try to show Parcher some respect, he's done a lot for the Legacy Dredge archetype. Maybe actually read what he posted:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I won't say it's awful, but it is worse. Worse than LED-less, far worse than LED, and about equal with Bloodghast builds. While it solves some problems, they are not problems that cannot be raced by the LED version. While it can be removed for slots post-board, these slots are far inferior to the post-board plan of the LED-less version. It also does create some vulnerabilities, due to the necessary recursion, to creature and artifact removal that is not normally relevant. The Ichorid version could still lose to creature removal during upkeep, and the Bloodghast version could still lose to problems with not having a replayable land; since this version is almost entirely dependant on combo-ing off.

But basically, it's too slow and clunky.

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As for saying more stuff about running Sharuum:

-Running the package you indicated (3 Sharuum/1 Altar/1 Portal) is 5 slots, compared to the ~2 slots for DR targets most decks run. This means cutting 3 other cards, and this WILL hurt your consistency. There's no way to argue it won't. If you could find a smaller package to run, it would be very helpful. Something like... 2 Sharuum/1 Altar instead. This gives the deck the option to go infinite and mill the opponent, which is probably the main reason to run Sharuum in the first place.

-Sharuum looks MUCH better in LED Dredge, for the obvious reason that it runs LED. This gives 4 more artifacts you can target with Sharuum, making it easier to DR it without first Dredging 2/3 of your library. With LED-less Dredge, there's no artifacts to target outside of whatever DR suite you choose to run, so again, this hurts consistency. And as Parcher said, LED Dredge runs just fine without Sharuum.

I will give my idea on Sharuum (or whatever it's spelled).
I like the idea a lot and will try it but I am not sure if it's what is needed to improve the deck.
The mill combo helps to win through Elephant Grass, Moat and Ghastly Prison, but doesn't help against gy hate..
But it's really cool!
Both LED and LED-less moved to dtw!

I tested a series of games (not on MWS) using the Sharuum and Furystoke versions of the deck. The Furystoke version is absurdly simple; I cut one of the two DR target slots (Hypnotist and FKZ) for a Furystoke. The Sharuum version was a little more problematic, as I had to cut both of my DR target slots, as well as a lone Therapy, bringing the count down from 4 to 3.

I played 10 games each in our "problem" matches, both Enchantress, Stax, and Lands. These are the decks that consistently get out enchantments, artifacts, or lands that slow you down and shut you out. The results are telling.

Furystoke
Enchantress: 8 wins, 2 losses
Stax: 7 wins, 3 losses
Lands: 6 wins, 4 losses

Sharuum
Enchantress: 4 wins, 6 losses
Stax: 2 wins, 8 losses
Lands: 5 wins, 5 losses

Now, I understand that these results are not statistically significant, given the small sample size. They are, however, informative. I continually encountered one problem with Sharuum; getting 4 cards in the yard consistently. This was particularly problematic against the Stax build I tested against, running not only Ghostly Prison but also Bujoka Bog (The new worldwake card) and Tormod's Crypt. Smokestack, Crucible, and Bog is a nasty combo against Dredge, and it really eliminates all hope of fancy combo shennanigans. I had a bit more success with getting the combo off against Enchantress, but this would sometimes lead to disaster. At one point, with 2 Sharuum's in the yard but still no Altar, I had a Wheel dropped on me. If I had just relied on a single DR target, I could have won. By relying on 2, in addition to 2 other cards, I pidgeon-holed my options.
Furystoke, on the other hand, worked brilliantly. I could slowly build up Narco's, Ghasts, PImps, and Zombies, letting my opponent waste their GY hate on me turn by turn. Once Furystoke hit the yard and I discarded a DR, the game was over to a 24 damage tapping session. This was repeated in at least a dozen of the games. It allows you to play a control role NOT just a combo role. It allows you to be consistent and slow, taking your time to win. It does not rely on a full graveyard. It circumvents most of Enchantress's/Stax's/Lands' tools.

I strongly urge all of you to give Furystoke a serious try. He is an impressive addition to the deck, whether sideboarded or even maindeck.

-ktkenshinx-

Sharuum is ONLY a smart plan G1..
I have said this time and time again, that is just common sense except for against lands/enchantress.
How I don't really get how Furystoke won you more games vs. land then sharuum, all you have to do is dredge untill the combo is intact in your yard then win?
How does Furystoke help in the land MU? Furystoke doesn't get around Tabernacle..

I've tested Kederekt Leviathan with decent results.

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

Deck to beat?
Bring the hate.

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Sadly the hate is pretty much why I havent played Ichorid at my past 3 tournaments. Goblins seems way more suitable in my meta...... Although I love taking back ichorids like a fiend.......
Maybe next time just for kicks

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Originally Posted by jimirynk

How I don't really get how Furystoke won you more games vs. land then sharuum, all you have to do is dredge untill the combo is intact in your yard then win?
How does Furystoke help in the land MU? Furystoke doesn't get around Tabernacle..

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Bloodghast and Ichorid both have haste (Bloodghast in most situations, at least). Most games it takes Lands at least a few turns to get a Tabernacle into play, by which time you can probably bring them down to 10 life, assuming that you are on the play. This gives you 7-8 hasted creatures automatically, assuming you don't pay a single upkeep on any creatures. You can reliably pay the upkeep on at least 2 creatures, for instance, a single PImp and maybe a token. That gives you anywhere between 7-10 creatures that can tap to use Furystoke's ability. Even in an absurdly conservative scenario, you can still probably get 5 creatures to use his ability. Assuming you had just Ichorids and a PImp/Token, that is still 10 damage, and assuming you have gotten a few attacks in, that is enough to bring your opponent to zero.
This is especially true because you can use the Furystoke twice in consecutive turns. Even if you only had 4 creatures that could tap on any given turn (2 Ichorids, 1 Ghast, 1 PImp, for instance), that is still 16 damage over two turns.

Again, Furystoke is nastiest with Gargadon, which is in and of itself an excellent sideboard option in certain matchups. Furystoke may not be the best route for stopping Lands, given Tabernacle AND Chasm, but it is extremely powerful in the Enchantress matchup, as well as quite effective in others.

-ktkenshinx-

First time LEDless in a tournament, 16 Players:
R1: Elves 2-1 5 Mulligans
R2: RGW Zoo 2-0
R3: CT 2-0 2 Mulligans g1, zero g2 because I was on the draw and he mulled
R4: RB goblins 2-0 he had 4 Extirpates and 4 Relics but played horrible so I won 3 Mulligans

Had many bad openers, rarely had more than 2 Spells to cast and never felt the "consistency" I read about. Dunno, I´m probably just the wrong person for this :(

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

nice I should have know that everyone has chain in their sb to bounce Blazing Archon which can probably just be discarded again and played again. If Blazon Archon is running rampant in your meta it seems like hard counters would be better then just trying to bounce. I would guess that most people have chain in their sb to bounce leylines which imo Wispmare is better, especially when they have more lands and can chain you back

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Yeah, but try to Wispmare-out the Crypt. Or Grudge-away monstrous Terravore. Or Pithing Needle Leyline. Etc.

Chain is too versatile to not use it.

I've been playing LED-version for long time.
Recently switched to LEDless since I aquired Paradises.
But I came to problem that I have big troubles siding with LEDless build.
What do you side out for what in?

@ ktkenshinx : But if enchantress plays solitary confinement then the game is over for furystoke, but not sharuum, im not saying the sharuumcombo is good, but still.

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Originally Posted by Herudaio

I've been playing LED-version for long time.
Recently switched to LEDless since I aquired Paradises.
But I came to problem that I have big troubles siding with LEDless build.
What do you side out for what in?

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It's pretty hard to answer this, and many other questions on the topic because you're not even saying what your list looks like.
Are you running bloodghast, what's your sideboard, etc...

Has anyone gave thought to
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cards...turesClaim.jpg

Nature's Claim is incredibly awesome, and I have been testing it as a possible supplement (and even replacement [!!]) to Chain of Vapor. Both cards deal with roughly the same threats, cost the same mana, and are instant speed. The key differences are that Claim cannot bounce your own discard outlet or DR target, and Claim cannot bounce opposing creatures like Blazing Archon. I am not too concerned about the Archon, as even reanimator strategies find better targets than him.

Here are the cards that Chain/Claim would reasonably be used to deal with.
1. Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus
Advantage: Claim
Chain is only a temporary solution to these problems. Unless you can follow up with a Therapy, look forward to seeing it again next turn.
2. Leyline of the Void
Advantage: Claim
Can't be recast on turn 3 off of a birds/elves/mox.
3. Elephant Grass/Moat/Solitary Confinement
Advantage: Claim
Opponent cannot recast their card the following turn.
4. Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere
Advantage: Claim
Same as with Crypt and Relic. Chain is a temporary solution. Claim is not.
5. Reanimator Strategies
Advantage: Chain
If you get into a scary race against a Reanimator deck, especially one using Sphinx with lifelink or Archon for attack suppression, then Claim won't help too much.
6. G vs. U
Advantage: Chain
You cannot cast Claim off of a Cephalid Colosseum, which can sometimes force you to mulligan away an otherwise excellent hand, owing to inability to deal with threats.


Overall Claim is an excellent addition to Dredge. Sadly, it is shut down by Chalice at 1, which just means that you need to run Ingot Chewer as well, if this is concerning to you. I strongly endorse including 3-4 of them in the sideboard. While I am not fully comfortable with the wholesale replacement of Chain of Vapor, Claim might be a serious contender for that spot; both cards do virtually the same thing in virtually all matchups. Yes, Chain is more versatile in its targets, but a permanent solution to Artifacts and Enchantments, instead of a temporary one, is too good to pass up.

-ktkenshinx-

I've been mulling over Nature's Claim as well. While the versatility of Chain of Vapor is very valuable, Nature's Claim deals with just about everything else you need to deal with post-SB. You already mentioned most of what I was thinking, but I just want to add that it could be at times redundant with Ancient Grudge. It's a much, much better answer to Leyline than Chain though.

Another thing I've been mulling about is my boarding strategy, which would surely change with Claim replacing Chain. I usually board in 4 Chains in Game 2 if I'm not sure what type of hate the opponent wil bring in, then switch to Grudges if they brought in Crypt/Relic. I'm thinking if I already board in the 4 Claims in Game 2, will I even think of needing Grudges still in Game 3? That's what I need to test more, personally.

Preliminarily, I'm thinking an SB of..

4 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Furystoke Giant

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

If you get into a scary race against a Reanimator deck, especially one using Sphinx with lifelink or Archon for attack suppression, then Claim won't help too much.

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Great explenation on every threat, just one thing. The Sphinx is an artifact creature! Which makes Natures Claim even more awesome. For Blazing Archon you can just use the Furystoke as you explained in an earlier post.

It has protection from Green though.

The more I think about it, the less I feel comfortable about getting rid of Chain of Vapor in the SB. Especially in a wide-open metagame, the amount of hate that you could see is just very diverse.

I listed all the possible hate cards and the top two/three SB cards to fight against them. Perhaps you guys can help me out with this so we can figure out what we can do with Claim.

Crypt/Relic - Grudge, Claim, Needle
Leyline - Claim, Wispmare
Jailer - Firestorm, Darkblast
Wretch - Needle, Firestorm
Propaganda/Prison/Moat/Wheel of Sun and Moon, Planar Void - Claim, Wispmare
Blazing Archon - Chain
Mogg Fanatic - Firestorm, Needle

While Chain is almost never one of the best answers, it can answer all of them on a limited level. Hmmm.

Nature's Claim is easily better than Chain of Vapor, aside from the irrelevant argument than Chain of Vapor targets a bunch of cards nobody actually boards, the only thing Chain of Vapor really has going for it is that it's U instead of G and thus it's usable with Cephalid Coliseum.

Seriously, all I ever used Chain of Vapor for was Leyline of the Void, Nature's Claim is like way better - god I wish it was a Sorcery too.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Nature's Claim is easily better than Chain of Vapor, aside from the irrelevant argument than Chain of Vapor targets a bunch of cards nobody actually boards..

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That's true. However, Chain of Vapor is, as I mentioned, a catch-all (although weak) answer to practically everything. Boarding in the wrong anti-hate cards in Game 2 would be much more common without Chain in the SB.