If at 18 like the scenario was stated, then the +1 storm from brainstorm is relevant, because it gets you to exactly 18 with the way Jason stated, with protected tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
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If at 18 like the scenario was stated, then the +1 storm from brainstorm is relevant, because it gets you to exactly 18 with the way Jason stated, with protected tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Yeah, the Chrome Mox(Chain of Vapor) is tapped in the scenario for those of you who didn't realize that. I'm glad so many of you are giving this a shot.. hopefully a newer player will see that this deck is a lot more versatile than it looks. Ad nauseam IGG ETW and DR are just options!
With the brainstorm included my path would have been tendrils for 20Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja_attack
Is it just me or is pyroblast kind of awkward in this deck? In only the second game I played with it a situation came up where I had Infernal tutor + LEDs and 2 pyroblasts for protection...but to use the infernal id have to discard the blasts so my opponent could just counter the infernal and id be screwed....
Yes, but they're better than 3 silences in the board. They can be really good sometimes, and other times awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplosPlankton
Pyroblast counters Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplosPlankton
Enough said?
Pyroblast is meant to be good against CB only really. It's good when you use burning wish sometimes because people are afraid of EtW. Pyroblast against countermagic is only good if you're casting ad nauseam with other cards in hand those being pyroblasts because then you don't have to crack LED in response to ad nauseam. But yeah it's better than silence at least in the board because silence does nothing against CB unless you silence them during their upkeep so they can't cast it that turn but that means you must combo out next turn. Which is generally hard on turn 3 if you're on the play or turn 2 it is very hard since you spent your first turn silencing them/not sculpting unless you open with a god hand. Pyroblast is also good against meddling mage. But the primary focus of blast is to answer counterbalance.
I have come across situations where I would cast Infernal or Burning wish with 1-2 LED on table and they counter, you then respond by countering pyroblast, while having pyroblast on the stack, then sac LED's. I'm not saying this is the way you should always play it, but sometimes you can catch someone off guard.Quote:
Originally Posted by ExplosPlankton
Problem is that you're boned when they have at least half a brain and don't counter your IT.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja_attack
If its not good against the primary blue deck in the format is it even necessary to the deck? Im thinking it might just be better off as thoughtseize or even a mix of seize and preordain...And several times already Ive run into trouble casting silence off the meager # of white sources in this deck...chrome mox doesn't really count for obvious reasons...any thoughts on the viability of a streamlined UBR version?
Indeed. The only situation you could pull it off is one where you don't need your LED's anyway. For instance burning wish with 4 mana float. Very anti-synergetic but still the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
I don't know whether this deck was originally from Max McCall or Emidln but I tweaked it a hair to my liking and it's been savage.Quote:
If its not good against the primary blue deck in the format is it even necessary to the deck? Im thinking it might just be better off as thoughtseize or even a mix of seize and preordain...And several times already Ive run into trouble casting silence off the meager # of white sources in this deck...chrome mox doesn't really count for obvious reasons...any thoughts on the viability of a streamlined UBR version?
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
The second Ad Nauseam could easily be an Empty the Warrens. Empty is really good against Merfolk. The cards I never change in the board are 1 Duress, 1 Tendrils, 1 Empty the Warrens, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains and 2 Dark Confidant. The only card I theoretically miss by not playing green is Reverent Silence but if you have to Wish for Reverent Silence, you've usually lost the game anyway so I just load up to the brim with Duresses and try to blow them out as quickly and consistently as possible. Xantid Swarm could be nice to have but with 7-8 Duress effects, I haven't seemed to need them. This has been the first storm deck I've played in Legacy and really liked it so far.
Some of the little synergies in this deck are great like having a million fetchlands along with Brainstorm and Ponder. I imagine 1 or 2 Cabal Rituals could be pretty robust in here because of that. Sometimes, I don't like the second Ad Nauseam but if the first gets countered, I still have a second in the main and that's nice along with literally doubling my chances of naturally having one in my hand.
I've run that list and the very real issue is the lack of Orim's Chant. That card is so amazing that it's worth the lack of basics and the addition of Gemstones and City of Brass, though those lands aren't that bad in their own right either.
Hitman, your list looks like it has some troubles against Counterbalances. We all do, but yours looks really weak.
+1, Still the list is also very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by sclabman
On Hitman's list: why would you swap the number of duresses and TS in your maindeck? Most of the time during game 1 I would rather have a duress then a TS in my hand. It's a little thing but I don't understand the reasoning.
7x Duress is going to be significantly better in g1 than Chant effects against Counterbalance due to the fact that Duress is relevant at least some of the time. Further, in lists that still have the small green splash, you can go Wish->Rev Silence.
Thoughtseize over Duress is probably a concession to needing to hit hatebears more than than needing 2 life vs control decks. If you don't know what kind of hate Zoo/Goblins has for you, you'd much rather Thoughtseize them and take the shock rather than be wrong about the hate and see a Teeg/Canonist/Earwig Squad come down.
I always suggested 3x mountain (2x Volc, 1x Badlands) in that deck so that you could actually Wish->Pulverize against Aggro Loam and Stax, but those decks probably aren't real at the moment so you might be fine.
My only issue with chants is when I need a B or R to go and have a Chrome mox but draw chants/silence.
While Duress might sometimes be better, if they are using Top or Brainstorming, your Duresses will probably never hit that Counterbalance.
He doesn't have the green splash, if he did, I probably would not have said anything. As it stands he can only Wipe Away and hope to go off or have discard.
Pyroblast >> At first I thought it was awkward too. Bryant showed me that the blast can be used to protect the Chant. In that case it makes playing IGG against blue viable.
So I wouldn't say "only for CB" in regards to Pyroblast's usefulness.
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Hitman, your list looks like it has some troubles against Counterbalances. We all do, but yours looks really weak.
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The only card I theoretically miss by not playing green is Reverent Silence but if you have to Wish for Reverent Silence, you've usually lost the game anyway so I just load up to the brim with Duresses and try to blow them out as quickly and consistently as possible.
I quoted what I said after posting the list. Basically, I don't think Burning Wish for Reverent Silence has much expectation against a deck shutting down your ability to resolve 0, 1 and 2 casting cost spells. If I have to resolve a Burning Wish through Force of Will, Spell Snare and Counterbalance and it actually does, Merry Christmas, I'm just going to kill you, not blow up your Counterbalance. If they don't have a Counterbalance and I resolve Burning Wish, I'm still just going to kill you. That's why I play 8 "Duress" after board. It's the strongest logistical play against Counterbalance. If I can just snip a key spell (usually two spells) out of their hand, I'm just going to go off and not worry about Counterbalance. Having Reverent Silence in my board doesn't really improve the matchup so why bother? Duresses are universally good and happen to be the most likely way you're going to win that match. If I'm expecting Counterbalance, I'm usually boarding a couple Pyroblasts as well. That gives me ten cards to prevent Counterbalance from hitting play. Once it hits play, I'm probably done unless they're stupid.Quote:
While Duress might sometimes be better, if they are using Top or Brainstorming, your Duresses will probably never hit that Counterbalance.
He doesn't have the green splash, if he did, I probably would not have said anything. As it stands he can only Wipe Away and hope to go off or have discard.
If they're Brainstorming their good cards away now, I have a window to exploit. Just like all cards, you have to play them at the right time and in the right manner to get the effect you want out of them. I rarely lead with Thoughtseize/Duress. I often lead with Ponder to set up the turn two kill with a Duress. Actually, Brainstorm is the best at setting up turn two kills but anyway...
I don't play Wipe Away. If I was able to play Mystical Tutor, I would defintely play one but the lines of play I would need to get it in TES would revolve around playing right into Counterbalance anyway.
I'm not a fan of Orim's Chant. Thoughtseize/Duress is so much more versatile, gives me lots of information, doesn't put a strain on my manabase (especially since I love basic lands) and pretty much never lets me down. Orim's Chant is a card I largely think is so popular because people are scared to play against counterspells. I realize it's good with Ill-Gotten Gains as well but I don't play it against decks with counterspells. I play it against Zoo and things of that nature. I really don't care about counterspells as much as I care about Counterbalance. My position is directly related to the number of Thoughtseize/Duress I play. I like to bring in Dark Confidant against decks with counterspells because he can block their Tarmagoyf and still net me cards to kill them with. If I expect a lot of counterspell decks, I put in a third Confidant. I don't like to play too many Confidants because they suck off an Ad Nauseam, nut low, makes me want to die, etc., etc.Quote:
I've run that list and the very real issue is the lack of Orim's Chant. That card is so amazing that it's worth the lack of basics and the addition of Gemstones and City of Brass, though those lands aren't that bad in their own right either.
Emidln hit the nail on the head. I'd rather lose a little extra life than get blown out by an unforeseen card. I love Thoughtseize. It's really strong in storm decks. I've also noticed that I stop drawing cards a lot sooner than most storm players I've seen. I pretty much just draw exactly what I need and stop immediately.Quote:
On Hitman's list: why would you swap the number of duresses and TS in your maindeck? Most of the time during game 1 I would rather have a duress then a TS in my hand. It's a little thing but I don't understand the reasoning.