GSZ sets up a turn 3-4 combo, Pact IS a turn 2-3 combo.
Printable View
GSZ sets up a turn 3-4 combo, Pact IS a turn 2-3 combo.
And before you say it, if you try to cast turn 2 Archdruid with a Heritage Druid, you need;
- 6 cards if you want to go turn 1 mana elf, turn 2 Quirion Ranger, cast one other dork and a Heritage druid, and then pact for Archdruid, which leaves you with 2 cards in hand + your next turn's draw to try and combo off with a tapped Archdruid next in the ideal scenario, on the draw.
- 8 cards if you don't have that ideal hand which means turn 3 your last card in hand has to be a Pact or Wish to do anything that turn making this pretty much a seven card combo and thus an absolutely terrible set-up attempt.
You can do all kinds of non-conservative things against control, like bait a force of will turn and then combo turn 3. I hate playing conservative.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Ironic to say dont focus exclusively on that scenario (which IMO comes up often) then focusing exclusively on the turn 2 Priest of Titania.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
No it isn't. You still need all the other pieces to fall in place. In which case it's marginally better than GSZ. GSZ, on the other hand, is drastically better at all other times.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
With 8 Mana elves, 3 ESG, 4 Priest, 4 Archdruid, and 4 GSZ, turn 2 Priest (or Archdruid) isn't really unlikely. It should be happening the large majority of the time. Of course you can run headlong into removal, but hey, at least that doesn't lose you the game outright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
Drawing into crap from glimpse then being able to continue due to the draw from pact (or two in case of visionary) comes up all the time for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
EDIT: Forgot to add that our lists are different and I dont run ESG / 4 archdruid AND 4 priest
How do you bait a Force of Will? Cast Pact, get Archdruid, get Archdruid countered, lose the game? That seems less like baiting and more like jumping into the mouth of the volcano.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
If you say you hate playing conservative but you lose 1 game out of 30 to Pact, then you're playing against Goldfish. Or, I don't know, maybe Dragonstorm.dec. You're not playing against actual Legacy decks, that's for sure. Running Pact out aggressively is a great way to lose the game at actual Legacy tournaments.
Have you playtested the list? I mean it's just hard to fizzle with active Priest. GSZ for a Symbiote if you need the card draw, then you also have a ton of mana. Or GSZ for the Regal Force. Having a ton of mana tends to solve most problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
I've been getting more experienced with the IBA's list, and I do have to say it seems more resilient. Less vulnerable to Counterbalance and it has a rather strong aggro plan against decks such as that, so even if you fizzle, you just bash.
No, Im play testing my own list, and doing some brainstorming about your list. Although, I think Ill change my 4 pact to 4 zenith for a period of time and try them out.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Here's the thing about Pact, and I'm basically repeating what rc_cola said on GG; as a straight-combo deck, Elves kind of sucks. It's not that fast. It usually needs Glimpse to combo off, although in the GSZ/Wish build you can sometimes just get a ton of mana the conventional way and cast Emrakul. But it's vulnerable to myriad disruption, including just Bolts and StPs.
But there's better options if you want to go all in. Go play High Tide or ANT or something. Elves is good because it's not an all-in combo deck, or doesn't have to be. The difference between Elves and Tendrils decks is that you can "fizzle" and still have a bunch of dorks on the board. Hell, you can just cast your Dark Rits and LEDs and use them to beat the opponent to death. Drop your "all mana sources get +1/+1" dudes and really end the game. Elves is actually good against Merfolk, if you're building it right. It can beat Bant decks, especially if they're running Counter-Top.
Running Summoner's Pact takes away from this strength because it does move you all in, or it sits dead in your hand. GSZ complements your versatility by letting you run 8 Lords (12 with Wish) in addition to enabling the combo plan.
I really think Mouth of Ronom deserves a slot in your wishboard. It's an uncounterable out to Peacekeeper, and you already run the snow manabase.
Pact makes the deck faster while still having all the strength of the non-combo plan. I can't stress enough how vastly you are overestimating the the effect of the upkeep cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I can't help but noticing that if they counter your GSZ you are also in bad shape. This discussion between pact and GSZ is ridiculous. The list I play has 3 wish, 3 GSZ and 3 Pacts. They all serve their purpose AND are usefull on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
[QUOTE=TheInfamousBearAssassin;541752Unless you're playing against Goldfish, where turn 2 Pact for Archdruid is great because um you lose your third turn paying for the upkeep anyway.[/QUOTE]
Never heard of quirion ranger??
I'm curious to know why you think four mana isn't a lot of mana in a deck that's light on lands and vulnerable to creature removal and counters, but I strongly suspect that the answer is that you're not testing against top Legacy decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Like, of the past 10 SCG Open winners, 9 of them can either counter your turn 2 Archdruid or murder him and/or other guys. The only deck against which this plan seems good is Affinity, in which case, great, if you get paired against Affinity all day you should be winning every tournament.
They can have removal and counters and you can still pact safely. Do you know how many ways this deck can generate four mana? It's really hardly even a risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
We should test on skype where I am playing pacts and you are playing whatever control deck you prefer. I think that's the only way I will prove it to you.
No, if they counter your GSZ you've lost one card. They've often lost two and at least one. Whoop de doo. You move on with your life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
If they counter your Archdruid you just Pact'd for, you're dead. Dead dead dead.
Please go step by step how you think you are casting Quirion Ranger and Archdruid on turn 2, and then paying a four mana upkeep when Archdruid bites the dust or gets countered. Because without an ESG in the works it's impossible.Quote:
Never heard of quirion ranger??
This really just has to be repeated a bunch of times;
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
Every time you play this card in a real tournament against real people who play real cards you should be shitting bricks. Real opponents run real spells and they want you die. This has to be kept in mind at all times and you can never survive if you underestimate their ability to kill you.Quote:
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG. If you don't, you lose the game.
The only way you can do this on turn 2 is with Heritage Druid, which all but empties your hand, even on the draw, even with no mulligans, even with a Quirion Ranger. And then you lose to a Daze + an STP or Lightning Bolt instead of just one or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
I've played it in tournaments homie, including SCG opens, and I've only died to it twice in tourneys, and once was because I just forgot to pay. That leaves only one time of alllllll the times I've casted it in tournaments that it has resulted it a loss because I couldn't pay it. Have you played it in tournaments, or are you just speculating? If you have never played pact in a major tournament, then "everyone should keep this in mind at all times."
Who the hell is pacting turn one? You don't have to generate 4 mana turn 2....duh?