Did any of you guys see the Jund deck from eternal weekend that cut goyf for smallpox? If so, what did you guys think of it?
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Did any of you guys see the Jund deck from eternal weekend that cut goyf for smallpox? If so, what did you guys think of it?
Took a similar list as above to another GPT and went 2-3 in the swiss...then shenanigans happens with the tournament organizer and after they did prizes, dropped everyone not going to Jersey so I snuck into top 8, then person I was paired with dropped because he already had byes and I made top 4. Lost in the finals to double Affinity god-hands anyway.
UR Shocklands Delver 0-2 (0-1): didn't have Punishing Fire either game and I was dead by turn 3 or 4 each game despite Decays and ground presence.
ANT 2-1 (1-1): Discard, hate pieces, and clock get there...plus terribly unlucky and inexperienced opponent.
Show and Tell 1-2 (1-2): Discard, clock, and a Chains to end things game 2. Games 1 and 3 he got fast combo.
Death and Taxes 2-1 (2-2): Punishing Fire, Liliana, and massive Goyfs get there games 1 and 3. Game 2 I had a great mull to 5 (DRS Lili Goyf 2 lands) but he got RiP and killed me. A timely Hymn in either game 1 or 3 nabbed some nice things.
Helminator (Swiss) 1-2 (2-3): Discard and Abrupt Decays let my clocks in. I get too aggressive in game 1 with Sylvan/Thoughtseizes and Tezzeret comes down to animate a Baleful Strix and the 5/5 flier clocks me from 7. Bad hand in game 3 comes back to kill me. I did use a Golgari Charm to regenerate my board against an Engineered Explosives in the game I won.
Top 4 Helminator rematch 2-0 (3-3): Discard, Abrupt Decays get there.
Finals Affinity 0-2 (3-4): I get bad hands on mulls to 6 and he gets god hands. Punishing Fire in game 2 didn't even do as much because of a Ravager that could pump Ornithopters.
The deck felt great against midrange decks (DnT, BUG Del) and control decks (Helminator) where discard could have impact before getting the pilot and any engines online - Liliana, Punishing Fire, Bob, Sylvan. Combo and fast aggro it has been just too slow and reactive - UR Delver, Elves, Burn, Affinity, Show and Tell.
That sounds...terrible. You lose your major clock for a card that is really bad in the meta right now, that could kill your DRS, Bob, or BBE. It's great off of a BBE cascade onto your empty board but that's it.Quote:
Did any of you guys see the Jund deck from eternal weekend that cut goyf for smallpox? If so, what did you guys think of it?
We talked about the smallpox Jund deck on the next episode of Everyday Eternal. Smallpox seems bad in a format full of tokens...
-Matt
Yeah. I've played a loam pox list similar to Kennen Haas recently, Smallpox just isn't as good as it was with young peezy running around and pissing on everyones fun.
Here's a couple of thoughts going through my head at the moment.
I feel like Dark Confidant is quite weak. There’s a lot more 1CMC removal spells and burn flying around, taking damage is just too risky and his body is so weak (especially as people are playing loads of Forked Bolts!!!). We have to find CA from other sources (Mostly P. Fire I assume). This means Golgari Charm is much easier to play for the -1-1 without killing our own Creatures. It also means we could splash for Cruise. Could be worth trying?
Secondly, as powerful as BBE can be (and as much as I love the card), because of how streamlined Delver decks can be while at the same time throwing 1-for-1s at you only to refuel with a cruise, I think random cascading isn’t reliable enough. And 4 mana is quite a lot. I’m not sure what the replacement should be, maybe even Huntmaster of the Fells? Or just try and keep the curve low. We do need some beatsticks…4 Goyf for sure, and maybe 2 or even 3 Ooze? Reanimator has been popping up to beat UR Delver, it’s nice to have MD vs that as well as potentially keeping opponents GYs in check for cruise/dtt.
We’re also going to be taking the control role in a lot more matchups I feel, hopefully there’s a balance between control and low curve that can be found which is streamlined without Brainstorm. Two Sylvan Library doesn’t seem out of the question, though the loss of tempo can lose some games vs Delver decks. One main one SB might be correct. I think 4 Bolts is a must too, maybe even some Disfigure. Playing something turn 1 has become very necessary. We could even play a Deluge or two?
Are you building BUG Delver?
I think more Ooze is a good idea though. At least 1 main. Let's clean up those graveyards!
I don't think so, these Lightning Bolts and Punishing Fires seem a tad out of place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Advocating cutting the Bobs and BBEs might be heresy, but it may be a change worth trying. The current build of Jund just isn't cutting it vs all the burn from these UR decks.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14910&iddeck=110456
A list betting more on Ooze and mass removal spells (firespout AND golgari charm sideboard), and a card I learned to love in 4-C Loam which is Slaughter Games, great vs combo.
Removing Dark Confidant is probably a bad idea. I tried running 3, but it really is the greatest card. Even if it auto-eats every possible removal, it's still fine. It makes getting out of mulligans easier (at champs, I mulled to 4 vs. Shahar and 2 Bobs won that game), it's a solid beater, and so much more.
If you remove them might as well go the full control route with Pernicious Deeds and such, but taking Bob out so Golgari Charm is better is a bad idea.
Even if you kill your own Bob after it drew a couple of cards because of a necessary Charm or something, it's STILL good. Not to mention it can still block and kill something if you really need it to die, saving you a couple of life or whatever.
I would say I agree with razvan, but that would be implying a belief in Dark Confidant being the best card in the deck is opinion rather than fact. Excepting fetches and duals, Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman are the only cards that are never sideboarded out against any deck, and there's a reason for that.
It is interesting that you never sideboard either of those out. I board out a single DRS vs Rest in Peace decks, and I board out some number of Bob vs burn decks. I am not saying this is necessarily correct, I just never considered anything having to be in the deck 100% of the time.
If you need to board out a Dark Confidant or a Deathrite Shaman, do so. I think I phrased my previous post a bit poorly. If you need to board one out, don't let me stop you, but they shouldn't be objectively be taken out on the basis of being poor cards in a match-up. Every other card in the deck has that match-up where you want every copy of it out of your maindeck and promptly incinerated. Thoughtseize, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland. Each one of those, and every other non-land, you want to take out against something or the other. But not Deathrite Shaman. Not Dark Confidant. Those you have to cringe and justify taking out even in their worst match-ups. Like a graveyard dependent dork still being something you want against a deck whose sole objective is to eliminate your graveyard. Like a Goblin Piker that loses you life still being something you want against a deck that goes for the dome.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Bobs are fine against burn. They block Goblin Guide, and you need all the luck you can get vs. burn anyway so you hope to play them and them flipping lands, and just aggro them down quickly.
Plus, if it dies, and it will, +2 life from Shaman, who *might* live :)
Ok so Reid Duke wrote this article:
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...easure-cruise/
When Reid talks, people should listen. He says primarily that you don't want to be Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay in this metagame.
We all agree on Hymn, although 2 in the SB seems right. Abrupt Decay was never "good", it was just necessary.
I honestly do think Jund can be tweaked to be a control deck with Tarmogoyfs as beat-down, especially if Miracles decides to be slower. Having burn-style removal (so 4 Punishing Fires) is really good because it's great against Miracles and UR Delver.
Meh.
Maybe take out the BBEs, put 2 Garruk Relentless and go to town?
The problem isn't the cards it's the method by which Jund wins. Just like Reid says when you've worked all game to grind out incrimental advantage only to see it completely ruined by a top deck Treasure Cruise you can't win. Jund is a deck that wins through attrition and Treasure Cruise takes that attrition and turns it into card advantage. Garruk doesn't fix this. Garruk is just more incremental advantage negated by their sudden influx of cards. I believe Jund to be unplayable in this meta for exactly this reason. I jumped ship in favor of UWR Delver. Dark times.
I have a hard time expressing my opinion, even when not sick. Let me try again.
Jund is excellent at controlling the board. Our removal can deal with all their threats, especially reoccurring removal like Punishing Fire and Liliana of the Veil. It doesn't matter how many late game Treasure Cruises they get, it generally won't make a big difference if you survive the early game.
This is why I shaved down the discard (down to 3 Thoughtseizes, which incidentally was the amount I was running in Aggro Loam). They are generally useless, but can snag a Cruise or some early action. I had 2 Chains of Mephistopheles maindeck as ridiculous bombs, especially early on if they are counter light, shutting off a quarter of their deck. I can’t see them winning ever if you have a chains and a Punishing Fire.
Everything else is geared to fight the delver decks. Maelstrom Pulse, and as before Lili and Fires. Even Bolts and Decay are fine because of how random Treasure Cruise is.
They have 4 basic types of cards alongside Cruise. Threats, Cantrips, Lands, and *generally* soft counterspells. If you survive the early game, the latter 2 are meaningless, cantrips are really fine but don’t do anything to the board, and threats, threats that die to everything in our deck.
So let them Treasure Cruise, and kill the Delver or the Pyromancer. Great, parity.
Garruk is there as the new 4 mana thing, mostly to combat Miracles. And in a pinch, he can snipe a creature off too. It might not work, and it might be the case that we don’t need 4 mana things to begin with.
This is exactly the problem. If you're hedging your deck to fight delver decks which historically are Jund's best match-ups you are significantly impacting the deck's ability to fight through what were already terrible match-ups with various combo decks. The entire reason a heavy discard package existed in the deck was to fight the ANTs, Sneak and Shows and Reanimators of the world. You're taking your worst match-ups and making game 1 nearly unwinnable. That's not the answer to this meta. Based on the comprehensive and very well done meta analysis by Bob Huang in this article(http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...game-analysis/), of the top 8 performing decks worldwide since the release of Khans Elves, ANT and Reanimator are among them making up a combined 18.4% of the top 8 meta worldwide. To further break it down Patrick Chapin's article on the metagame break down found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ew-Legacy.html) shows combo decks as a whole taking up nearly 40% of the overall meta. That almost half! So what you're advocating is taking already extremely difficult and nearly unwinnable games for roughly 1/5 of the top performing meta and 2/5 of the overall meta worldwide and making them worse in order to fix what should be the decks best match-up. Do you see how that doesn't lend itself to top 8ing? Sure you'll win some games but you won't win the tournament. And if you're taking this to GP NJ you might not see day two.
First, I am quite ready to admit that I am wrong. I am wrong a LOT so this wouldn't exactly be new :P And keep in mind that from my end, it's mostly theory-crafting not actual massive tournament results, so... yeah.
I don't know why people consider Elves a bad match-up.
Between Chains and Thoughtseizes, and then massive sideboarding, I don't find combo to be unwinnable either.
Also, looking at the top 5 decks (currently, I expect this to change next update): Miracles, BUG Delver, Elves, DnT, Shardless.
Those are all decent match-ups. Yes, Storm is an issue. I don't think it's overwhelming though.
Look at the top 8 decks from champs:
Helm-Combo
Punishing Maverick
UR Delver * 2
RUG Delver
UWR Delver * 2
BUG Delver
Now at Huang's analysis:
1. Miracles (18.4%)
2. UR Delver (12.3%)
3. Elves (7.9%)
4. DeathBlade (7.9%)
5. ANT (6.1%)
6. UWR Delver (4.4%)
7. RUG Delver (4.4%)
8. Reanimator (4.4%)
Miracles is Miracles. Even if we change, it's a tough match-up, but I think we have a slight edge, especially since they wanna run 2+ REB maindeck.
I haven't even faced Deathblade in forever, I have no idea, I can imagine that's fine.
Elves I mentioned above.
The Delvers is what I am trying to beat.
ANT is a problem. Reanimator is a problem (less so). We can hedge against them with heavy sideboarding. We can afford to do that too. Most decks can't do it without diluting their plan, but for us, we exchange some removal for better removal and still maintain the rest of it.
ps: that maverick deck looks awesome with the Domri's!
I'm planning on going to GP NJ, but would appreciate some advice from the wiser community on how best to sideboard in this current meta with UR Delver running rampant post-SCG Columbus. What should I take out/put in in the big matchups?
I run a stock Punishing Jund list and my sideboard is currently:
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague