I`m interesting to know how is the SB plan of this deck... how do you guys board in and out on the most dificult matches??
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I`m interesting to know how is the SB plan of this deck... how do you guys board in and out on the most dificult matches??
I wanna talk about sideboarding against burn. G1 is almost unwinneable for them but g2 they oftenly side in Trap. A. veil is useless against it and the bee is a joke for burn and their sparks. So, REB is the only way out?
I would only board in Pyroblast in once I lose to Mindbreak Trap in Game 2. I'm not sure if it's not worth boarding in Pyroblast on the off-chance that they may have it.
Though I did lose to a burn player who mulled to three and his opening was Mountain, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar...ouch.
Belcher made the Top 8 at SCG Open: Columbus:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._columbus.html
Too bad he lost in the quarterfinals. Still, it is a pretty interesting list.
The list played is as follows:
Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
Sorceries
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
Lands
1 Taiga
Sideboard:
15 Island <---- Pro!
Been working on a new take on Belcher using Reforge the Soul. After playing in some events I feel the deck is ready for release. Since the deck plays significantly different than traditional Belcher I've decided to make a new thread instead of partially derailing this one. That thread can be found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Flames-Belcher
Interesting is a understatement.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
The guy must have mulliganed like crazy, and got some good match ups/luck.
To sum it up, 0 Burning Wishes, 0 Seething Songs, -1 LED, a few older includes that seem to have been deemed sub-optimal in recent builds, and whats obviously a sideboard that was just padded to make the deck legal. I can only conclude it was slapped together near last minute with a limited card pool. Or maybe he was making a statement. =/
Whatever the reasons, kudos to him. Heck, it shows the viability the deck still has. I just very recently started playing again after not playing since '08 and was thinking even in top form this deck may no longer be as viable as it was back then. Gives me further reason to keep the deck together I guess.
actually, if we look at one of the featured match reports, there was another person running a similar list.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAkuma
it makes me think that this was not just a deck put together at the last minute, but something that actually had some thought put into it. would be great if these guys shed some light into why the deck was built as such.
I don't think much thought could have gone into a sideboard of 15 island.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
lol i walked right into that one didn't i?Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
obviously, i meant the main-deck choices
Well there's a few things you can take from it. He went from 11 ways to go off on turn 1 to 8. That reduces the chance of going off turn 1 from around 77 % to about 65 %. I haven't done the math on what the additional card draw adds but I would never really feel comfortable keeping a hand with no business and hope that my draws lands me something.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Even with the lack of Burning Wish, there's no excuse to not have a sideboard. And if he was testing a new build without Burning Wish I'm sure he would have also tested a sideboard. For this reason, I do not think this was something planned. It was more than likely a last minute throw together deck.
That is the power of the Glass Cannon!
It's such a "I'm going to kill you as fast as possible, so fast, that my answer to post sideboard games, is to just kill you as fast as possible!" Gotta love those 15 islands! no other deck can say it's so hellbent on such a strategy that they can actually pull it off enough to just say "sideboard? who needs a sideboard when they're dead!"
Geoff did an AMA on Reddit about the deck today here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...y_scg_open_in/
The build was based on Matt Hazard's list from GenCon Legacy Champs last year.
Agreed, at the very least if he wanted to play without Burning Wish MD he could have built a SB with 4x Burning Wish and silver bullets and just SB'd out the weaker cards and 1x EtW for Wishes in matchups where he might have needed the help. Obviously there is no good reason to run no SB, but it is funny he top 8'd.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
I see what he did there, 4 gitaxian probe, 4 manamorphose, 4 street wraith, its like he's running a 48 card deck, and with 4 belcher & 4 empty the warrens, that's 1 in 6 cards (out of those 48) being a kill condition.
Well, a wish build with 4 probe 4 manamorphose and 11 kill conditions (4 wish, 4 belcher, 3 EtW) is like a 52 card deck, with around 1 in 5 cards being a kill cond.Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
It's hard to say which one has a higher % of an early combo turn just by looking at the math. Anyone knowledgeable in statistics can lend a hand? lol
I don't even think it should be seen like that. Even with 12 cantrips, the EtW, Belcher or BWish is what I want to see in my opening hand. I don't want to hope to draw into one. The cantrips being included to sudo thin the deck for mana spells is all their useful for.
Counting on using a cantrip to draw into a kill condition is going to be a waste of a card, turn, and storm most of the time.
If you're on the play with no kill condition in your hand, I think the odds of drawing into a kill condition with a cantrip, even if your playing a full 11 is only 23.4% (2nd draw 23.9%, 3rd draw 24.4%). Or with 8 kill conditions its 17% (2nd draw 17.39%, 3rd draw 17.7%). Planning to draw into your kill condition is just a poor plan even with a reasonable max of 3 cantrips in your opening hand.
Honestly, while running the limited version of the deck was a very niffty accomplishment, I just don't easily see it being more optimal in any way. The best reason to play it is probably just cause you don't have 4x BWish yet or are missing some key silver bullets for your meta game. Or maybe if you wanted to use a transitional sideboard of some sort.
Dude had a point. 11 win cons is probably too many when you want exactly one per hand. I dont think theres a card I want over the 11th main, but I am very comfortable boarding out 1-2 Wish when I want Pyros.
Tournament reportQuote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
I've toyed with the idea of playing Belcher for a along while, but I've been too infatuated with my Goblin deck to give anything else the time of day. Then I saw the above decklist with the baller sideboard, and I was inspired. I threw together the following list and brought it to my weekly legacy tourney.
Maindeck
Same as above
Sideboard
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Burning Wish
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast
R1 RUG Delver
G1 I won the roll but had to mull to 5 for a win condition. I don't mind mulling into oblivion to find some gas. In fact it's a skill I've honed pretty sharp while playing Goblins. Goblins lives and dies by its 1-drops, so mulling into a hand with Vial or Lackey is very important. I don't see this build of Belcher being any different. You have 8 cards in your 60 you need to mull to. Unfortunately for me my opponent had the Force and stopped me from hitting 4 mana for Empty the Warrens. L
G2 I sided in Xantid and REB and shaved off some random stuff. I mulled to 5 and my opponent mulled to a painful 6, but kept. I cast a T1 Xantid, which met a Force. My opponent missed his T1 land drop. I made 12 Goblins T2 or three and got there while he couldn't find more than 1 land off the top of his deck.
G3 I sided out the REBs since they seemed pretty bad on the draw. They actually seem pretty bad on the play too. Either way, I made kept my 7 and my opponent mulled to 5. I made 14 goblins T1 (probably a mistake, prolly shoulda only played 12 and saved a ritual as a backup plan) and won.
1-0
R2 Zoo
G1 He leads with Wild Nacatl. I T1 12 Goblins. W
G2 I side in 3 Burning Wish and 1 LED and take out 4 Street Wraiths. Did you catch the mistake I just made? I needed to side out 3 Wraiths and 1 EtW for my sneaky mini-Wish sideboard plan to work. Oh well. I realized this as I draw and keep my opening 7. Then I Belch him for 100 T1. Whatchagonnado?
2-0
R3 Maverick
G1 I'm on the play and keep my 7. I Probe him. He has Thalia in hand and I have Belcher but not enough to activate it, so I play a bunch of spells and a few permanent mana sources and drop the Belcher, needing only 1 more mana source to activate it. He plays Thalia T2. I rip an LED and Belch. W.
G2 I once again side in 3 Burning Wish, 1 LED, and once again I forget to side out 1 EtW as a wish target. I realize this when I see my opening 7 that has LED, 5 mana sources, and Wish. Fuck me, I fucked up. Obviously I can't keep this hand since it does nothing. I could have cast EtW for 18 gobbos T1 with that hand had I sided correctly. That's the ideal scenario against Maverick. They have 0 answer for that. None. So I mull to 4 and keep a hand with EtW, make 8 gobbos T1 as an answer to his T1 Mom. T2 he plays Mom and Heirarch. T2 I attack for 8 and he takes it. T3 he does nothing plays Jitte but can't Equip. i attack, he block 1 goblin with a red protected Mom and goes down to 5. His turn he fetches down to 4 life, equips Jitte, but makes a huge mistake by not attacking. My turn I attack for 7, he blocks three and says he'll gain two life. I say, "Uh, you mean you're dead?" and he looks at his life and scoops. Mull to 4 on the draw and 8 gobbos got there. These non-blue decks have 0 answers to T1 goblin tokens, even relatively small Storm EtWs are too much for them.
3-0
R4 Maverick
G1 T1 Belch on the Draw
G2 T1 Belch on the Draw
4-0
Let me say this about Belcher: It is incredibly well positioned right now. There was a time and a place when Zoo was so dominant that everyone and their mother played Engineered Explosives in their SB. Those days are long gone. There was a time that every U deck played 8 free counters, and every deck with KotR had FoW. Not anymore. Now the format is ruled by Maverick, RUG, and slow SnT Combo. 1 of those MUs is a pushover. 1 is too Counter-light to really interact. And the third is aggressive enough to push the Really control oriented U decks out of the metagame. Belcher seems incredibly well positioned right now.
Let me also say this: By God, is this deck no fun to play. Almost no interactions. No decisions to make after T1. I'm not a fan of playing this deck. But I might have to play it the next time a big-value tourney comes around. It seems like a good way to cake walk to the top-8.
So, yeah, T1 kills are totally a thing.
The list looks good, but you didn't fight many blue decks. I mean, the last time I took the deck to a tournament I played against seven out of seven blue decks. Won 4, but it is obviously impossible to fight against that. If you go to a big tournament and you come across many blue decks, chances of top8ing are very low.
Anyway, congratulations on the result and I like your list with burning wish in the sideboard.
Geoff Moes, the Belcher player who Top 8'd Columbus with the 15 Revised Islands in his sideboard, has written a tournament report for Eternal Central. You can peep it here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2807