Unfortunately, I think the best version of this deck plays Goyf instead of Stifle.
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Unfortunately, I think the best version of this deck plays Goyf instead of Stifle.
You misunderstand me on the first point. My argument is not that I can pretend that I have Stifle, but that my opponents tend to assume I do. The difference is that my pretending to have it essentially does nothing except perhaps makes me keep a mana open when I might not want to. My opponents' assumption changes their style of play though, tending to make them more prudent in my favor and wasting time that they need not waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
About the second point you raise, I didn't suggest specific replacements because obviously they are various and depend on meta choices and what one feels to be lacking over-all in the deck. Some cards I've tried, with various levels of success, are Vedalken Shackles, Ponder, Vendilion Clique, Spellstutter Sprite (generally putting the two Faeries in the same decks, naturally), Umezawa's Jitte, Kira, more Wake Thrashers, Tidal Warrior, etc. The thing is, I wouldn't necessarily advocate any one of these above all the others. If I really felt I had a perfectly tuned list of this deck, I would share what information I deemed appropriate without blowing my cover, and then go win some matches with it until I felt it was no longer perfectly tuned. The fact that I don't feel my lists to be 100% tight yet is the reason that I'm still here discussing the deck, and also the reason that I don't advocate any particular replacement to Stifle. I just advocate people feeling free to put Stifle in the sideboard, or eschew it entirely, and I wanted to hear opinions from both the people who do and don't think this is a good idea.
*So basically, we're swell here. Let's continue to debate stuff. :cool:
EDIT:
@Volt: Man, I hope that's not true. One of the main reasons I went with this deck is that I didn't see it hopping on the "splash Goyf for winnnzuRz" band-wagon any time soon... Although I can see Krosan Grip, and maybe even Trygon Predator, being mighty appealing in some matches, now that you mention Green. Alas, my scholar's budget does not support the Goyf splash, although I may test it.Quote:
Unfortunately, I think the best version of this deck plays Goyf instead of Stifle.
Splashing green opens up to Submerge. A card which is becoming more and more prevalent in my meta.
Why the hell is people still saying " let's splash this deck with green for goyfs"? if you stare at the Merfolk decks which made top8 on Dekcheck, you'll notice how 1/10 of the decks run tarmogoyf, while the remaining 9/10 decks are going monoU. Let the result speak for themselves alone. Merfolk can easily be a good deck without that piece of crap, the inclusion of which would provide few benefits and way more weaknesses.
This is false argumentation: there are way more lists without Tarmogoyfs to begin with, so your numbers sketched a skewed picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Disclaimer: I do agree with the idea that Tarmogoyf doesn't belong in a Merfolk list.
Speaking of Tarmogoyf...I just came from a tournament this weekend and took 7th out of 46 people running a Merfolk list with Tarmogoyf main and Krosan Grip in the board. I've been playing Merfolk for a while now, and I really like the changes with green, moreso for Krosan Grip than Tarmogoyf. My only losses that day were to Goblins, once in the swiss and once in the finals (same deck). I find that the Tarmogoyfs give the deck a little more staying power if your opponent happens to resolve a fatty and you can't really deal with it, and the surprise factor of vialing in a Goyf without having any green mana on the table is also good. I know he isn't a Merfolk, but he is a pretty strong card. It's the same list as the person who got 13th at GP: Chicago, I forget his name.
As for stifle, I run it main, but it's usually the first thing I board out because I can find a better card in my sideboard for the matchup-it's a nice card to have in game 1 then take out for something better games 2 and 3.
Volt....Volt....Volt....
What are we going to do with you kicking up the sand like this?
Seriously, you have to consider that the most successful Merfolk performance is the one with green. If you go that route, what becomes of the Relics? Do you swap out for Crypts? Do you play Brainstorm and bastardize more of the deck? Now you have to consider broadening the splash with extra fetchlands and perhaps a Tundra or two for STP. etc.
I dunno.
This is the sort of discussion that drives me nuts about Tarmo.
I still run Relic in the board, I just take out Goyf when I put that in. Maybe that's the wrong call, but it's been working for me thus far.
I'll admit, running goyf seems counterproductive in a tribal deck, but he's REALLY good, as is Krosan grip , at least for my meta (mostly counterbalance/dreadnought styled decks) which is why I like grip so much. Plus he gives you more resilience against other goyfs if you can't counter them (you play your own and prevent their goyf from racing your merfolk). It's really hard to come back from a turn two/turn three goyf racing your adepts and lords.
One of the appeals of the merfolk deck IMO is that it is easy to make on the cheap, but I just like the oomph the deck gets from goyf and grip. I wouldn't play brainstorm in this deck though-at that point I might as well add a third color and play thresh. We play dudes or vial turns 1-2, and attack, not set up for something more powerful. I can't really say that adding green is the better choice then going mono blue because the addition is better against some decks and worse against others. Adding a second color opens you up to stifle and wasteland being an issue but gives you resilience in other areas-it's up to you which you'd rather be exposed to.
I respect different builds, and Goyf is so strong its no doubt viable, but I won't be testing it for the following reasons:
-Staying Mono allows better use of Back to Basics which has been a house for me
-Goyf is too pricey
-I like having no reliance on my graveyard
-There's a certain satisfaction in beating expensive no-brainer cards like that
Ok so those reasons aren't that great. But I haven't had too many problems with opposing Goyfs either so far either:
-Wake Thresher + Lord(s) can out-muscle Goyf when attacking
-Faeries + Riptide Lab can chump block Goyf all day
-Faeries + Jitte can offset/kill Goyf
-I can counter Goyf (Daze / Force / Sprite + another Faerie/Mutavault)
-Relics in board shrink Goyfs
Hello,
I've been playing this deck for a long time and tried different builds with it. So far this list has been the most sucessful.
Lands
2 Mutavalt
3 Wasteland
14 Island
19
Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Silvergill Adpet
1 Shapesharer
3 Inkfathom Infiltrator
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher
23
Spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
3 Ponder
18
SB
2 Stifle
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Back to Basics
2 Control Magic
3 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
A Few Odd Balls....
1. Inkfathom Infiltrators - when i 1st suggested this i was blasted with comments that it was a crap. I suggest you try them out 1st.
2. Shapesharer - an outlet to pump wake thrasher. bash heads with tarmo, dreads, tombstalker, etc.
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I was really tempted to jump to a 2nd color be it green or white. (Tarmo or STP and disenchant effects), due to the fact that its so hard to face a fatty with no spot removal.
Merfolks has no evasion of some sort expect if your opponent controls an island or combo the tidal warrior + lord of atlantis but that doesn't happen too often. Here comes the inkfathom infiltrators which has, you can trade off damage with goys or other fatties with them and packed with jitte his awesome offensively... since you had done early damage from him finishing your opponent is much easier with them.
erbs: Evasion + Jitte is king, does the double blue ever cause you issues? Also which matchups do you bring Dreadnoughts in for?
Why only 3 Silvergill? I love that card and whouldn't cut it for the world. He is always my first play...
1 of Shapesharer seems unnecessary, cutting wastelands to 3 and stifles to 2 while running 2 tidal warriors seems bad.
I've used Inkfathom's before, they really weren't worth the extra slots (and changes of mutavaults into islands). Ponder really isn't an excuse to cut Standstill. Your card advantage with merfolk having 4 silvergill and 4 standstill is just barely enough to get there most of the time, but to change 4 standstill to 3 ponder and take out a silvergill is just plain crazy.
As said before Wakethrasher and Jitte don't really need to both be there, I wouldn't use 2 huge beaters like that in the same deck since we need the aggressiveness, and you need more card advantage.
Dreadnaughts are against burn and sligh, like always.
I actually think Silvergill is overrated. Yeah, it replaces itself, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a 2/1 for 2, which makes for a mediocre creature otherwise. Also, its cost is restrictive. This sometimes forces you to play Silvergill before your other Merfolk, otherwise you run the risk of keeping Silvergill as a dead card. This also gets worse when your 'other Merfolk' areQuote:
Originally Posted by elof
'other Silvergills'.
Silvergill is only amazing with Vial out (and decent with Reej out), but otherwise, I think it's overrated. Perhaps cutting it altogether is too hasty, but I think 4 Silvergill is way too much.
I've been running only 3 Silvergills and even then I find sometimes I can't cast it when I want to. Most of the time they're ok, but I'm not going up to 4 soon. Then again I'm running Faeries thats why I cut it back. The one toughness really sucks tho, even with a Lord out he can't survive Bob/Kird Ape/Shock effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Both those cards have won games for me by themselves; having both increases your 'big threat' count. They are both best when attacking so I'm not sure what you define as 'aggressiveness'. Having a Jitte online can also net you advantage by offsetting burn/killing creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
I didn't know Inkfathom Infiltrator existed before erbs' post, but now that I know, I think Infiltrator is much better than Silvergill in the Jitte variants. Aside from the fact that Jitte'd Infiltrator lives to attack again (unlike Silvergill sometimes), you also avoiding the slowness of reattaching Jitte to your next beater.
Yes in my current mana configuration it sometimes did maybe i got unlucky but i wouldn't push the inkfathoms to 4 any time soon. I brought in the dreadnoughts against burn, mirror match, decks that i know has limited spot removal, etc.Quote:
AcidFiend erbs: Evasion + Jitte is king, does the double blue ever cause you issues? Also which matchups do you bring Dreadnoughts in for?
Phoenix Ignition Yes the 1 shapesharer was just for kicks.., i needed a merfolk another merfolk with a decent ability.Quote:
1 of Shapesharer seems unnecessary, cutting wastelands to 3 and stifles to 2 while running 2 tidal warriors seems bad.
I've used Inkfathom's before, they really weren't worth the extra slots (and changes of mutavaults into islands). Ponder really isn't an excuse to cut Standstill. Your card advantage with merfolk having 4 silvergill and 4 standstill is just barely enough to get there most of the time, but to change 4 standstill to 3 ponder and take out a silvergill is just plain crazy.
As said before Wakethrasher and Jitte don't really need to both be there, I wouldn't use 2 huge beaters like that in the same deck since we need the aggressiveness, and you need more card advantage.
Dreadnaughts are against burn and sligh, like always.
As for the Standstill, i guess it will boil down to a players preference, yes without a doubt standstill is awesome but i use the ponder for its searching abilities and shuffle effect not for draw. Currently im okay with no draw effects.
For Wake Thrasher and Jitte, I want to have maximum threat as possible so i could have a chance in the damage race against fatties.
For Inkfathom i like the evasion it gives, especially in finishing off my opponent later on when im faced with fatties... it forces my opponent to kill it aswell when there life is begining to drop...
As for 2 stilfes 3 wasteland.., again it will boil down to a players preference im comfortable with 3 wastelands cause when im faced with a mono colored deck wastelands could give me more mana problems. As for the 2 stifles they are just precautions agains pernicious deeds or combos, etc. and its part of the dreadnought package..
Like what the above posts had exprienced same as i, thats why they are only 3 in my list.Quote:
elof Why only 3 Silvergill? I love that card and whouldn't cut it for the world. He is always my first play...
I' m testing a coupLe of Sage of Fables instead of Wake Trasher and it seems pretty good. Sometimes it works as 9th and 10th lord effect, and it is awesome combined with Vendillion and Riptide laboratory. I' m not sure i' m gonna play Jitte anymore, that' s because i probably want ever my mana open to did a Vendillion or Stifle or activate Laboratory. I thought it could be a better sideboard choice instead of a maindeck one.
Hey, I'm playing Merfolk also some time and the last list was that one:
creature [20]
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Spellstutter Sprite
instant [8]
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
enchantment [4]
4 Standstill
artifact [6]
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
land [22]
12 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Riptide Laboratory
3 Wasteland
The spellstutter Sprites are insane, also the Riptide Laboratory
I never wanted to play Stifle in the Maindeck...I even didn't want to bring it in from my sideboard, so I don't know why you guys are all playing that card...
Riptide Lab is soo good with Silvergil Adept and Aether Vial...you can draw soo many cards...whew thats amazing...
The only Problem is that you play so many lands but I don't know if you can cut Islands becaus the non basics you can't cut...
I won with that list 2 tournaments in a row in germany (110ppl and 40ppl)
Zwergenpunk, what did your sideboard look like?