[DTB] Blade Control

Went 2-0-1 at our weekly yesterday, beating Miracles and Jund, then drawing against Jund. Moorland Haunt performed like an all-star yet again, particularly in the Miracles matchup. I've liked the 2 Verdict maindeck so far, but that may be because our meta is primarily fair decks.

I've seen people now cut a land for the 1st Ponder. I run 24 lands and could conceivably drop to 23 for the 1st Ponder/1st Top. How has it been performing for people and do you ever miss the land? This deck is super mana hungry at all stages of the game, so dipping lower on lands makes me weary, although I'm 2 color so it may not be as bad as I'm thinking.

I've never played 24 and generally play 22 but my current iteration is a touch top-heavy, so currently at 23. I don't play top or ponder, but I normally do and the ponder is solid. Never tested sdt but obviously it's at least as good as ponder.

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Ponder is usually there to increase the blue count in Esper lists.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I've seen people now cut a land for the 1st Ponder. I run 24 lands and could conceivably drop to 23 for the 1st Ponder/1st Top. How has it been performing for people and do you ever miss the land? This deck is super mana hungry at all stages of the game, so dipping lower on lands makes me weary, although I'm 2 color so it may not be as bad as I'm thinking.

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Esper is fine on 23 lands + 1 Ponder. I run UW with 23 lands + 1 SDT. I've never missed the 24th land.

I've literally never wanted land #24.

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I have been looking at Qweerios' Moon Blade list and was thinking of something like:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemisis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Supreme Verdict
2 Blood Moon

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace

Please let me know thoughts as I am brewing this list. I have been playing UWR delver and really want to just slam blood moon and verdicts.

Split 1st Place at a monthly tournament in my area (about 24+ players) using Moon Blade.

Swiss:
R1 vs. Miracles: 1-2 (Lost G1 to Jace + dead cards, and lost G3 to blind Terminus into blind entreat while I drew blanks)
R2 vs. Belcher: 2-0
R3 vs. Belcher: 2-0
R4 vs. Deadguy/Junk: 2-0 (Blood Moon won G1)
R5 Draw into Top8

Top 8:
R1 vs. Blade Control: 2-0 (Blood Moon won G1)
R2 vs. Pox: 2-1 (Top gives me a free win G2 and a blind Needle on Mishra + RiP gives me G3)
R3 Draw with my buddy and go home

I used the following list:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Supreme Verdict

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

2 Blood Moon

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Academy Ruins
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains

Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace


I initially had 3 Jace main and 1/1 Moon in the main/SB but I saw 4c Loam, Landstill, and a couple of players notorious for their BUG and Delver decks so I made a quick swap before the tournament.

@Lambert101,

-You don't really need 3 Plains. The single Karakas is much better.

-I don't like SoFaI with so little creatures to equip it. I have never encountered a scenario where I actually needed it to win a game. It's clunky, its slow, and Jitte is almost always better. If you have issues with opposing Nemesis, a 3rd Verdict is simply better. I like EE in that slot because I need a catch-all. It really blows to lose to random permanents you have no answer to (Lily, Bridge, CB, Vortex, Jitte, Sylvan Library, etc.) when you have established control over the board with Jace or Nemesis. Incidentally EE is quite good at keeping Jace safe with Ruins.

-1 REB and 2 Pyro in the SB is a lot of SB space for cards you don't really want against Delver decks. If you play that many blasts, I suggest you add a basic mountain in the main in order to be able to side them in against decks that pressure your manabase. As my deck is setup now, I only side my two blasts against Wasteland-light decks and combo decks. I bring in Path to Exile against Delver decks because they don't play basics anyway and it will also hit SFM/Bob/DRS.

-I would sooner play the 1st Plateau than the 3rd Volcanic if you choose to play 2-3 copies of Verdict.

@ Qweerios

What does has the side boarding strategy look? I had to re-read moorland haunt and o hot dang that is awesome sauce!

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Originally Posted by lambert101

@ Qweerios

What does has the side boarding strategy look? I had to re-read moorland haunt and o hot dang that is awesome sauce!

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You side out dead cards for not-dead cards? What matchups in particular are you asking for?

mostly BUG and miracles

Miracle
-2 moon, -2 verdict, -1 jitte, -3 stp
+2 clique, +1 reb, +1 pyro, +1 disenchant, +1 jace, +1 needle, +1 sofaf

Team america/shardless bug
-4 fow, -2 snap
+2 rip, +2 clique, +1 verdict, +1 path/jace

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Miracle
-2 moon, -2 verdict, -1 jitte, -3 stp
+2 clique, +1 reb, +1 pyro, +1 disenchant, +1 jace, +1 needle, +1 sofaf

Team america/shardless bug
-4 fow, -2 snap
+2 rip, +2 clique, +1 verdict, +1 path/jace

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How would you answer shardless bug's CA (ancestral vision)? Does the countersuit of 3 pierce and 2 counterspells enough?


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Against Shardless BUG I only care about Hymn and Planeswalkers. They can draw as many cards as they want, they won't easily get through a Nemesis and we will eventually get our value back with a Verdict. I rely on Blood Moon to seal the game. Also, Shardless BUG can have a lot of trouble with Batterskull. Postboard we have RiP to neuter them and you can bring in Pyro/REB against Shardless BUG instead of Cliques if you see little Wastelands, several Strix, expect more Jaces or Nemesis, etc... (all Shardless lists are different). Sometimes I will side in 2 red blasts and side out 2 StP. I like Clique because it is a saving Grace against Lily and will often clear a path EoT for a lethal Moon.

I was typing on my cellphone when I replied to Lambert about SB strategies so I tried to save time merging TA and BUG. I think it's safer to SB the following:

TA:
-4 FoW, -2 Snap
+2 RiP, +2 Clique, +1 Verdict, +1 Path

Shardless BUG:
-4 FoW, -2 Snap, -2 StP
+2 RiP, +2 Clique, +1 REB, +1 Pyro, +1 Verdict, +1 Jace

So similar to Moon Blade... I have been testing around with a UWb Blade Control list with an emphasis on the control part. If you are familiar with Joe Bernal's Back to Basics "supreme blade" deck he's played in past opens, than this will look pretty familiar to you.

I have been liking it a lot lately. It wrecks tempo and greedy decks and has fair game against combo too.

There is a solid "core" that I am happy with, but theres a little wiggle room, I am unsure about.

Core:

21 lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Scrubland
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Back to Basics

45 cards in the core. The other cards I am not sure about. I definitely want >0 of some of them, but I haven't been happy with the exact numbers for any of them:

2-4 Snapcaster Mage
2-3 Lingering Souls
2-3 Supreme Verdict
1-3 Counterspell
0-4 Ponder
0-1 Plains (#3, up to 22 lands, this is a must without lots of tops or ponders)
0-1 Misdirection
0-2 Spell Pierce
0-2 Sensei's Divining Top
0-1 Entreat the Angels

Tentative Sideboard, will depend on the exact MD:

0-1 Engineered Explosives
0-1 Verdict
0-2 Needle
1-2 Zealous Persecution
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus/RIP
3 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief*

*Notion Thief is for style points, I don't actually think that is best use of that slot.


The omission of MD Discard my seem odd. I had 3 MD thoughtseize at first, and sometimes it was awesome, but I basically had to always get non-basics OR not cast my powerful cards (jace/verdict/snap) until 1-2 turns later than I liked. If your fetch out, swamp, plains, island, island, you cant cast verdict, if you get 2 plains, 1 island, you cant jace, etc. Basically, thoughtseize made the manabase not work however, it is still awesome against combo and blade decks, so its a 3 of in the SB.

There's no TNN, once I add TNN I start slowly cutting counterspells for pierces, snaps for DRS, basics for wastelands and suddenly I am playing a tempo deck. TNN does not fit the game plan here. Even SFM or souls are rarely turn 2/3 plays. They usually just come in after a verdict or B2B to finish things up.

I'd like to be running the MOST amount of Ponders that I can. The list I've liked the most so far has 4 and gets away with 21 lands just fine. Against fair decks, with ponder, you can spend your first few turns just setting up land drops, and preparing countermagic till you can slam a verdict or stps+snap+stsp and stablize at a health life total. At that point, even if your opponent has plenty more threats, the stuff you start doing (jace, sfm, souls, B2B) out muscles whatever their plan is every time. And against combo or control, 4 ponder really helps find the bullets you need to win.


It is worth noting that in my area there are relatively high amounts of URx tempo, reanimator and storm, with relatively little S&T, or miracles.

So any advice on solidifying the list would be appreciated, or if anyone else has had experience with this subarchtype any input/advice would be valuable. Thanks!

That looks interesting. I'm starting to play this deck now as I am completely tired of and not particularly good at tempo decks, so Stoneblade here I come. I like some of the esper builds, but I feel a little torn on them. The thoughtseizes just aren't as good as they used to be? Or maybe its just me, but it seemed like I only wanted it against SFM decks or trying to find one turn 1 vs combo. We don' have the necessary discard density that a deck like BUG does or the discard bombs of BUG and decks like American seem content to face combo with just a bunch of soft counters. I feel like this makes black unnecessary.

I'm experimenting with Red mainly because the Red sideboard cards look so good. This is my phase one of the Stoneblade experiment:

Mana-22-
Flooded X4
Polluted X4
Wasteland X4
Tundra X4
Volcanic Island X2
Island X2
Plains X2

White-9-
SFM X4
StP X4
Elspeth X1

Blue-25-
Brainstorm X4
FoW X4
Spell Pierce X4
True Name Nemesis X4
Jace X3
Mana Leak X2
SCM X2

Artifacts-2-
Jitte
Batterskull

Gold-2-
Verdict X2

Sideboard-15-
Verdict X2
Cage X2
RIP X2
REB x1
Pyro X1
Wear/Tear X2
Blood Moon X3
Geist X1
SoFI X1

I have only done kitchen table level testing with this and while it satsifes my desire to play a midrange deck, I am not at all convinced that it is any good. The two Volcs may be better off a 2 Karakas and a Venser main? I don't know, but I do like it at this point, so it's better than anything else. i'l play a four round local this weekend and get a better feel for it. I think the stoneblade shell si still legitimately competitive, so I expect to be here for a while, that is until a better midrange comes along or they unban Survival:)

cheers
defector

I went 2-2 at a 16 person legacy monthly.

Here was the 75

4 True Name-Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Blood Moon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

Side Board:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Wear//Tear
3 Pyroblast
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Supreme Verdict

The list was solid and I played terrible.
Match-ups were
Grixis Delver L (1-2) Fire Covenant top deck blew me out game 3
Reanimator (2-0) easy win with counters and clique beats
Jund Lands (0-2) Is there lands in my deck keep 2 hands with basic and ponders and see no lands...wtf variance
UWR Delver (2-0) Nice guy who was having a rough day

Any thoughts on the list would be greatly appreciated.

- Lambert101

That lists looks fine. I just played to a 1-3 miserable finish with the blood moons in the board and the cliques main. I don't think I'm in love with the red and I will be trying out straight u/w with meddling mage in the board. I think there is almost always a stoneblade that's good, its just not always obvious where it is:) I think your list looks fine. I don't know if the maindeck karakas or academy ruins is worth having or not. I think the core 4/4 Tnn/SM is awesome. Does the three GY disrupt seem adequate? I'm wondering if I can get away with just three RiP in the board, right now I'm at 2/2 RiP/Cage mainly because dredge and elves can both be so bad. I'm willing to experiment there.
My night was 1-3 beating Sneak-Show by luck, my opponent gave me the first game and losing in 3 to u/r delver. I got destroyed by Pox and by Food Chain. I diidn;y play sharo and expected things to be challenging. I'm going back to a straight u/w list for now until I get more comfortable with the archetype. I'll have more for you guys next sunday:)
cheers
defector

I'm sticking to UW/Esper. Adding red doesn't feel like it actually really adds anything to what this archetype wants to do. Blood Moon is fairly decent, granted, but other than that one card, I believe that red makes the deck less powerful in the mid/late stages of the game. That's where I prefer to be the most powerful. Turn 5 and later, I should be the one who was inevitability on his side. I think red is the most powerful in Tempo lists, and I think that the statistics agree. RUG and UWr Delver are definite boons to red's tempo orientation. Black is the best tertiary color for this archetype, and I feel that this idea also has been proven time and again within large and relevant tournaments over the last year. I know that it feels good to jam a Blood Moon and wreck someone else's day, but in the end I disagree with it's inclusion. If you want an actual control deck that plays red, I recommend you go play Miracles. They do it better than we ever could. I play Miracles from time to time, and I'm not the greatest Miracles pilot, but I can see and feel the power of it and must admit that red belongs there way before it belongs here.

I've been winning a lot with my current UW build. A lot. I've been beating MUD, Stax, Merfolk, D&T, Sneak and Show, Elves, other Blade varients. It's pretty good. I haven't got to test against other archetypes because of my meta, but I think if you test it, you will see what I mean. I posted my list a page or two back. Try it out.

As far as the list above goes, Lambert, you play way more Ponders than I ever care to. Two would be the most I ever play but I think even then I would prefer a 1/1 split on Ponder and Top.

I don't like wastelands in this deck. I'm glad it seems we can all agree on that. In my current list, I play Elspeth and Factories. It wins games, especially when you are running 3 Verdict in your 75. It doesn't get interacted with often, and with at least one Humility in the Board along with Elspeth #2, it's extremely powerful. I'm going to work out a board that has 1-2 E. Tutor and focuses more on these interactions and will allow me even stronger turns faster.

I still run TNN, even though a lot of people have reverted back to Lingering Souls. Souls is okay but I'm still content with the Nemesis.

-ABC

Hello everyone! I recently got started in Legacy (played for the 3th time last friday) and loving it so far. At the moment I'm using a GW Enchantress deck since it was the closest thing I had that was playable in the format(I only played casual Multiplayer magic before). However I've always enjoyed playing UW control when we occasionally decided to try 1v1's in my playgroup. Since I have a multiplayer equipment deck the choice was pretty easily made to go for a Stoneblade deck.

Getting started in Legacy definitely isn't cheap as most of you probably know/understand. I've already made quite some expenses buying stuff to improve my Enchantress(3 Windswept Heaths, 4 Serra's Sanctum,...) which I'm currently playing with and getting together some components for my uw Stoneblade deck (3 Flooded Strands, 1 Tundra, 2 Jace, Forces...) so it's fair to say that for the time being I'm going to just try a deck with 4 Floodeds, 1 Tundra and basics. Later on I might improve the manabase with additional fetches, wastelands etc.

Having said all of that, I recently saw a build by Sean Thielman that I really liked and I'm looking to create something similar. The biggest advantage for me is that the cards that I have yet to purchase(Vials, Mothers,...) can also be used in my Multiplayer games.

I always like having my own build instead of just buying every card in somebody else's list and I'd also like to include the 2 Jace, TMS I recently purchased. Here's what I currently have:

Creatures (18)

4x Judge's Familiar
4x Mother of Runes
2x Meddling Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x True-Name Nemesis


Enchantments(1)

1x Detention Sphere


Artifacts(6)

4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Planeswalkers (2)

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Instants & Sorceries(11)

3x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares


Lands(22)

1x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Seachrome Coast
5x Plains
8x Island


Sideboard(15)

1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hydroblast
2x Path to Exile
2x Swan song
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Rest in Peace
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Force of Will


I would really like some feedback in order for me to improve the main build. I'm not sure about Brainstorm yet. Maybe there should be more creatures?

I guess I should play a full playset of TNN? What to cut?!

Perhaps +2 Meddling Mage -2 Thalia? Helps feeding FoW.

Feedback on the sideboard would be extremely useful as well! I'm very new to Legacy, Tournaments and to playing with a sideboard so my experience is very low with this. Tips on side boarding are very welcome as well!

Quick Description about the meta:

I would say that Combo is definitely represented (especially ANT and TES). Furthermore the meta consists of:

Elf Combo, Dredge, BUG, Tin Fins, Mud, Death & Taxes, Burn, UW Miracles, Painter, Belcher

So definitely combo is a thing. Haven't seen a lot of aggro decks besides D&T and Burn. Burn is a deck that is played sometimes, not always, but definitely something to be aware of. The 2nd most played deck besides combo decks is BUG.

Thanks in advance!

Get snapcaster makes as soon as possible. They are really important. 2 at minimum but 4 is ideal. Put all force of will in the maindeck. Move meddling mages to the sideboard. Get another set of any blue fetch. If you don't want to drop the cash for a 3rd jace, I recommend a ponder, sensei's top or both. Also, elspeth, knight errant is a good choice for a 3rd planeswalker. Drop the familiars and the moms, as well as the thalia. Lingering souls is a fine substitute for more true-name nemesis. In fact, there are those who would prefer it. You are running only 2 colors and tons of basics, I highly recommend back to basics. Finally, run a bare minimum of 1 supreme verdict and lose the vials. This is a control deck and we don't need lots of creatures, and the ones we do need we can fight over with our own counters. Speaking of counters, you need more. Spell pierces are good and I like good old fashioned counterspell. I also run a single spell snare. In the sideboard I recommend dropping the blue blasts for 2 more Spell Pierces unless you are able to afford flusterstorm. They are going to do exactly what you are wanting them to do now against burn, but be more versatile. I dislike the path to exile in the board, especially if you go with my suggestion of back to basics, as any deck with a basic land will immediately thank you for your assistance in finding the out. I would recommend at least one grafdiggers cage in the sideboard for the elf match up and additional dredge hate. Venter is less good, even bad if there is no Karakas. Eventually you should invest in one as they are really good against Tin Fins and other decks that play gris and emmy. Vendilion clique is something you should also invest in. It's good by itself, but it too gets better with karakas. I like the mirran crusaders for now but as your list makes more of these changes, you are going to want to drop them for more ideal choices. I hope I've been helpful. If you have more questions, just ask.

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Sorry for the double-post, but this has nothing to do with my previous post, so I figure that it's a safe double-post. Round 4 of 8 during SCGKNOX is a UW Stoneblade with red and Factories. Is that one of you guys? Just wondering, I'm curious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Get snapcaster makes as soon as possible. They are really important. 2 at minimum but 4 is ideal. Put all force of will in the maindeck. Move meddling mages to the sideboard. Get another set of any blue fetch. If you don't want to drop the cash for a 3rd jace, I recommend a ponder, sensei's top or both. Also, elspeth, knight errant is a good choice for a 3rd planeswalker. Drop the familiars and the moms, as well as the thalia. Lingering souls is a fine substitute for more true-name nemesis. In fact, there are those who would prefer it. You are running only 2 colors and tons of basics, I highly recommend back to basics. Finally, run a bare minimum of 1 supreme verdict and lose the vials. This is a control deck and we don't need lots of creatures, and the ones we do need we can fight over with our own counters. Speaking of counters, you need more. Spell pierces are good and I like good old fashioned counterspell. I also run a single spell snare. In the sideboard I recommend dropping the blue blasts for 2 more Spell Pierces unless you are able to afford flusterstorm. They are going to do exactly what you are wanting them to do now against burn, but be more versatile. I dislike the path to exile in the board, especially if you go with my suggestion of back to basics, as any deck with a basic land will immediately thank you for your assistance in finding the out. I would recommend at least one grafdiggers cage in the sideboard for the elf match up and additional dredge hate. Venter is less good, even bad if there is no Karakas. Eventually you should invest in one as they are really good against Tin Fins and other decks that play gris and emmy. Vendilion clique is something you should also invest in. It's good by itself, but it too gets better with karakas. I like the mirran crusaders for now but as your list makes more of these changes, you are going to want to drop them for more ideal choices. I hope I've been helpful. If you have more questions, just ask.

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So I guess the more Aggro approach isn't such a good thing? Would you consider running Delver?

Actually, Path to Exile is a great SB card if you need additional targeted removal regardless of if you play B2B or Blood Moon. I play PtE in my SB along with Moons in the main and side. You want 1CMC targeted removal against Delver decks mostly and those usually don't play any basic lands. Cards like B2B and Blood Moon are simply not that good against decks that have access to basics in general. Given our slow nature, the drawback of PtE shouldn't be an issue if your strategy for a specific matchup is cohesive. For example, I would still play PtE and Moon/B2B against Jund because I have to answer both Bob and Groves. Even if Jund plays 0-2 basics, giving them a basic doesn't invalidate my other cards' purpose.

If I played Stoneblade on a budget, I would stick to UW and play 4 StP along with 2-4 Verdicts in the main or side with at least 2 PtE in the SB. Overloading on removal and counterspells in the main and side is a good way to learn the format and how to dose disruption according to your meta. Get 4 Snaps as your next purchase and try to win with your SFM package and Jaces. Fill in the blanks with every StP, PtE, Verdict, Snare, Pierce, and Counterspell you can find.

Brainstorm is only good with fetchlands.

Ponders and Tops never hurt no matter how many you play.

We disagree often. The only delver he mentioned was bug. I guess pte won't be terrible against that but PtE won't be good against elves, dredge, mud, death and taxes, painter, Belcher, combo or burn. I think there are better choices for the board. Back to Basics is really good against bug. I would focus on that and deal with delvers using stp. That's just me I guess. Also, June is a bad example since he never mentioned it to be in his meta, regardless of the point you were trying to make.

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Wait what?

Path is fine against dredge, in fact its better than stp... Removal in general is BAd against belcher so I don't see your point there... Bug doesnt play basics so why wouldn't you play path along with your nonbasic hate? Also, any respectable delver deck will noT play basics... Exept maybe for ur burn which is more red than blue to begin with. Path is good against dnt, elves, and mud too so please explain.

Besides, since when giving a free basic is such a set back for a 1cmc exile removal in a dedicated control deck? Yeah it is bad on mana dorks but thats not what we play removal for in the first place.

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Path is totally fine, but probably not necessary, 4 StP and 2 SCM is probably enough. The only deck you really don't want to Path is DnT, but even then its better to give them a land rather than die. All the top delver decks in American or BUG or RUG delver are totally fine for paths. I don't run any just because I don't have slots in the sb for it, but 2 PtE are often on my mind, right now they are like card 78 and 79 of a 75 card deck:)

@Redesign: You're concept looks like a mix between death and taxes and standard u/w stoneblade. I don't think those hybridize very well. If your looking for the cheaper path I'd encourage you to go full on DnT as you seem closer to that list and you spend less money on Karakas/Port/Waste then 4 Bluw fetch and 4 Tundra and 2 Volc/Underground sea. Both decks are legacy competitive, but the brainstorm deck probably offers longer legs in terms of metagame shifts. Anyway, good luck and welcome to legacy, my other advice would be to be patient, but a few legacy cards each month with a clear decklist in mind and you'll end up with something you can play for a long time.

cheers
defector

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Wait what?

Path is fine against dredge, in fact its better than stp... Removal in general is BAd against belcher so I don't see your point there... Bug doesnt play basics so why wouldn't you play path along with your nonbasic hate? Also, any respectable delver deck will noT play basics... Exept maybe for ur burn which is more red than blue to begin with. Path is good against dnt, elves, and mud too so please explain.

Besides, since when giving a free basic is such a set back for a 1cmc exile removal in a dedicated control deck? Yeah it is bad on mana dorks but thats not what we play removal for in the first place.

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In what world does anyone in their right mind think that boarding in removal against dredge is a good idea when you are a uwx build? I'm boarding out snappies and boarding in RIPs and Cage. As to removal being bad against belcher, that was exactly my point, so congrats, you did get it. Often now UWr delver will run an island due to people aggressively attacking their mana bases based on a assumptions like yours. It's okay against elves but not great. Chances are elves will just bounce with symbiote or quirion ranger whatever you target unless it is symbiote, then it's just a slight annoyance that they will bounce back from. Against mud, they play chalice, I play against mud often. My best friend plays it. I assure you, I have better luck winning when I treat my verdicts as spot removal than when I lean on StP/other 1cc spot removal.

Basically, my first assessment of our beliefs still stands: we disagree often.

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Been revisiting the last list I used with 4 Ponders. I have been thinking of switching those with 4 Lightning Bolt and dropping a Spell Pierce for a Volcanic Island. My reasoning is that bolt is more removal for creatures and can with walkers till you get True Name-Nemesis and Umezawa's Jitte online. The proposed list would look like the following:

4 True Name-Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

2 Blood Moon
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

4Brianstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lighting Bolt

4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feat and Famine

Please let me know your thoughts. I know lightning bolt can be awkward but I view it as a creature and planeswalker removal spell and not as "reach" as in other decks.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

In what world does anyone in their right mind think that boarding in removal against dredge is a good idea when you are a uwx build? I'm boarding out snappies and boarding in RIPs and Cage. As to removal being bad against belcher, that was exactly my point, so congrats, you did get it. Often now UWr delver will run an island due to people aggressively attacking their mana bases based on a assumptions like yours. It's okay against elves but not great. Chances are elves will just bounce with symbiote or quirion ranger whatever you target unless it is symbiote, then it's just a slight annoyance that they will bounce back from. Against mud, they play chalice, I play against mud often. My best friend plays it. I assure you, I have better luck winning when I treat my verdicts as spot removal than when I lean on StP/other 1cc spot removal.

Basically, my first assessment of our beliefs still stands: we disagree often.

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Path and stp are better than a lot of cards in blade decks against dredge. I take spot exile removal over cards like jace, verdict, ee, moon or b2b, and even nemesis. Thats a lot of cards to take out of the main for 2-3 rip/cage and a couple of soft counters... I would even bring in celestial purge back in the days to combat dredge and I know the matchup extremely well. Also, you should always keep snap even if you side in rip, he will still carry a jitte and you can flash block to exile bridges for 2 mana.

Its difficult to charge a jitte past symbiote so you might as well remove it. I am not saying you should path their drs or llanowar but by all means path their symbiote and heritage druids.

Even if american delver played 25 basics, path is still amazing against them. They rely on 10-12 threats to win the game backes up by 11-12 counters. The chances that our first stp gets countered are pretty high. The more the better.

Also, whats the deal with belcher? I dont understand. Why would you reply to my comment about path against delver decks with a response involving belcher? Whats the link that I am missing here?

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Path and stp are better than a lot of cards in blade decks against dredge. I take spot exile removal over cards like jace, verdict, ee, moon or b2b, and even nemesis. Thats a lot of cards to take out of the main for 2-3 rip/cage and a couple of soft counters... I would even bring in celestial purge back in the days to combat dredge and I know the matchup extremely well. Also, you should always keep snap even if you side in rip, he will still carry a jitte and you can flash block to exile bridges for 2 mana.

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Sure. All of that is well and good and all, but I'm talking about what is in your actual 15 card sideboard. That's what you seem to be missing through all this. Are you actually playing Xx Path to Exile in your sideboard, because I can think of at least 5 other cards I'm currently not running in my 15 that I would run over Path, and definitely over Purge. You are correct that it's not a bad idea to leave in the Snapcasters. If you run these cards in your sideboard, you are sacrificing your other matchups. I board in about 4 cards against dredge and adjust my deck's goals and play accordingly. You are advocating playing sub-par choices in the sideboard. The cards are fine, but they are poor choices overall for this deck. In making the decision to run these cards, I must reiterate that you are sacrificing other matchups to do so.

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Its difficult to charge a jitte past symbiote so you might as well remove it. I am not saying you should path their drs or llanowar but by all means path their symbiote and heritage druids.

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You don't take out Jitte against elves. That's just bad advice. You try to get it online as soon as possible. You do not board it out, that's just stupid. StP on Symbiote/Ranger clearing the way for the creature equipped with Jitte is more than enough to get the job done. Paired with countering their main cards, you can win the matchup, especially if you draw Cage (if you board it in, I do).

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Also, whats the deal with belcher? I dont understand. Why would you reply to my comment about path against delver decks with a response involving belcher? Whats the link that I am missing here?

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There was no link. A period symbolizes the end of a thought, and then a new sentence allows the beginning of a new thought. I made my thought about belcher, and then presented a new thought on a new topic in a new sentence pertaining to Delver. I hope this clears things up for you.

@Lambert101: I love the lightning bolts, but I think its a bad idea. If you want to run 4 Bolt and 4 swords in the same deck i'd say check out American Delver, it does it better than we can. I think the PW removal card your looking for is True Name Nemesis and if you want some additional creature control maybe run 2 Supreme Verdicts. My current creature control package is 4 Swords and 2 verdicts, and it seems fine.I run two volcs main and no red cards main, i just have them for sb cards. I don't want to discourage you, just my two cents. Keep playing and testing, and let us know how it goes.

@Rancor: That list looks solid. I'm messing around with the red sb splash, so I haven't committed anything to the traditional Esper colors, but it looks strong. My feeling is that Lingering Souls and Thoughtseize just aren't very good anymore. i'm not sure what did it, but they don't seem to populate too many toop 8's. now legacy definitely has a bend and sway, so they may become good again, especially Thoughtseize, but they don't seem to be enough right now. I think its miracles more than anything, mid to late game top decks vs miracles with hand disruption just sting. On the other hands, souls and jitte counters win games. Keep it up:)
cheers
defector

Went 3-0 at the weekly, beating Enchantress (2-0), Jund (2-0) and RUG Delver (2-0). Sticking with straight UW until I die.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Went 3-0 at the weekly, beating Enchantress (2-0), Jund (2-0) and RUG Delver (2-0). Sticking with straight UW until I die.

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Right there with ya.

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@abc,

I meant removing symbiote (with path), not jitte.

I think stp is a great card and a 5th copy is a good use of sb space. Cheap targeted removal is paramount against decks with delvers, drs, goyfs, sfm, and bobs. Especially if you stick with uw, you dont have that many options. Path is on the same level as additional verdicts in the board.

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Path is nowhere near the same level as verdict. Verdict deals with opposing TNN. It deals with an SnT'ed Emrakul. Verdict isn't too little too late against DnT's full board. I have Jaces, StP, Verdict both main and side, Humility, and Oblivion Ring, even Celestial Flare has more well rounded applications than Path. All these are better than Path and they handle more situations.

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I think the 5th spot removal spell is personal preference and a meta call. I know that for me, Snapcaster has lessened my desire for a 5th 1cc removal spell. However, my meta sees mostly fair decks that tend to have at least 2 dudes on board at any given time, so that's why I moved up to 2 maindeck Verdict.

I forgot to mention that I am playing a 5th removal spell in the main of my uw list. I play a singleton Unexpectedly Absent and it is amazing. It does so much work that I am considering a second somewhere in the 75. It's like a mono-white abrupt decay with so much more versatility it's ridiculous.

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Hmm. I've always looked at that card and thought it had applications as a 1-of as a pseudo-O Ring at Instant speed, and Snapcaster flashback is just a bonus. I'll likely shave my 2nd Verdict for it next week and see if it runs well.

I play it and two verdict main. I feel it's a catch-all and therefore doesn't fill the same role or slot. I do encourage you to try it however you manage to find room for it.

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