[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

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Originally Posted by Anthem

IMO Engineered Plague is useless. There are just better options. Deadguy has a positive matchup against Fish, Ghostly Prison does a similar job (if not better) against Goblins and Zombie tokens, etc. In that spot I would recommend Perish. Trust me, in this green-heavy format you'll love it, especially against an overextending Zoo player. 3-1 against them is game.

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I generally agree here. I've been steadilly trimming Plague from my 75 - I started with 4 and I just keep cutting them. Also, Plague's are generally only extremely effective if you land 2. Landing 1 just isn't enough to win generally...it just buys time.

However, perish's effectiveness is generally declining as well. Rock decks have taken a strong decline and zoo is going more and more red every day and some decks are utilizing Jace as a finisher. The best thing Perish has going for it is it kills Progenitus (IMHO). I've been generally unhappy with Perish these days - most times I just want a path or edict effect.

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

I generally agree here. I've been steadilly trimming Plague from my 75 - I started with 4 and I just keep cutting them. Also, Plague's are generally only extremely effective if you land 2. Landing 1 just isn't enough to win generally...it just buys time.

However, perish's effectiveness is generally declining as well. Rock decks have taken a strong decline and zoo is going more and more red every day and some decks are utilizing Jace as a finisher. The best thing Perish has going for it is it kills Progenitus (IMHO). I've been generally unhappy with Perish these days - most times I just want a path or edict effect.

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Retribution of the Meek is arguably better than Perish here. No harder to cast, hits Progenitus, but also Emrakul (F-ing Hive Mind is everywhere now). The only drawback is that there will be times where you can't nail KotR or Goyf, but it's when it does hit them that they're actually threatening anyway.

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

Tim, mind posting your recent decklist?

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Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Body and Mind

Artifact Creatures
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Tribal Enchantments
3 Bitterblossom

Basic Lands
1 Plains
5 Swamp

Lands
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Perish

Dick, that's super secret tech that you're not supposed to be spreading! lol.

I mentioned that card to a very good local player and he started running it in his white lists...and just recently I've seen it start popping up in other sideboards as well. Everything you just said about it is absolutely true. Also, 3/4 goyfs and 3/3 Knights are pretty rare and unthreatening. Also, the thing that you didn't mention is that it kills Batterskull equipped creatures.

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Tim, I'm surprised you've cut E-Tutor from your 75.

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Tim, I'm surprised you've cut E-Tutor from your 75.

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I just didn't have enough slots for it in the board. I was having a really hard time trying to figure out the board the night before since it was a completely unknown meta. I hadn't touched the deck since Baltimore, or really played any Magic in general, and my buddies told me about the event the day before it.

With the move to Extirpate over artifact yard hate I figured E Tutor may not be as good as it used to be for me. Plus I had cut Null Rod, which after the event started and I saw like 3 Affinity decks plus MUD I wished I hadn't. I don't think I would've boarded it in that day at all though. I might go back to it and drop the Gatekeeper for a one of Phyrexian Metamorph though.

I wouldnt go for Retribution instead of perish but guess it depends on meta if you dont have lot of elves or Mavericks in your meta it might be a go. But for now i prefair the Perish over the Retribution as Maverick and elves are doing good in my meta.

Well, gravehate is important, I'm struggling with that too atm. Extirpate seems like the right card for the job, but I can't justify running it when I can tutor for Metamorph to shore up matches against reanimator, NO, or Show and Tell - and extirpate is really only good against reanimator. Plus E-Tutor gives me more outs to ANT, and can help in some of my aggro MU's...something Extirpate doesn't really do. The downside, of course, is that the dredge MU is pretty abysmal with basically one grave hate card.

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Originally Posted by Rizso

I wouldnt go for Retribution instead of perish but guess it depends on meta if you dont have lot of elves or Mavericks in your meta it might be a go. But for now i prefair the Perish over the Retribution as Maverick and elves are doing good in my meta.

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Well, I've heard a lot of talk of elves doing well, but I haven't actually played against them in a while. I guess my thinking is that if I can play about 10 targeting removal spells + discard and misstep elves shouldn't be a tough matchup regardless of whether or not I have perish.

Extirpate and surgical extraction is fine against hive mind and dredge as well, sean won alot of games against hivemind cos he extracted on thoes intuitions. TBH crypts arent really good against dredge either, a jailer would be way better running then the crypts if really want to fight the dredge decks.

But really the board can only be 15 cards and there is just to many decks to have board against everything. So thoes card should imo be against dredge, zoo, natural order and combo with spells. Ethersworn cannonist does work against both storm and hive mind.

Have people given up on Oblivion Ring? I haven't seen much of it in sideboards these days. As for Perish v Retribution of the Meek, I'm definitely going to be weighing their usefulness in the sideboards to come. That's a tough one.

I always run 3 Extirpate, and have been thinking about 4 since I can't tutor it. It ruins so much of this meta.

I've been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier again. I remember being told he wasn't optimal, but the protections and ability to Fly/First Strike seem tempting, plus the synergy with SoBM and Chrome Mox, though against Elspeth. Would it also be because he can't get across the red zone very well?

Well Ill show the list I am playing at the moment, its a bit... white :)

lets start with the Manabase:

4 Scrubland
3 Fetid Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Swamps
3 Plains

As an accelerator I use:

3 Chrome mox
I tried everything, mox, ritual and aether vial and I gotta say I like this most for a controldeck like this.

Creatures

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader

Ye, the 2 must haves: Confi and SFM, ofc a playset, and 2 Mirran Crusader as final equipbearer

Artefacts

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

I think its quite obvious: The best equips for a deck like this, maybe I add SoFaI here as a 61th card... maybe...

Discard

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Ye, as said earlier I dont like Thoughtseize, thats why I split Duress and Inqui

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

Ye, great removals, 4off each.

Specialities

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Bitterblossom
2 Mental Misstep

Both very nice cards, that can change the boardsituation completly.

What you think of this.. Its actually been working quite well, nothing was unwinnable(ok dredge and combo game 1 :) ) theres just one thing im "missing" comparing to other lists - the sac via edict or gatekeeper... How would you squeeze it in? And what would you use? What I was thinking:
-2 MM +2 Gatekeeper?
or rather - 2 Mirran Crusader + 2 Gatekeeper?
What would you suggest? Thanks and Greetings

Edit: And where to squeeze in Senseis Divining Top?

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Originally Posted by Anthem

Have people given up on Oblivion Ring? I haven't seen much of it in sideboards these days.

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No, I haven't given up on it. The downside is that it's foiled by much of the same hate that our win-con's are (Qasali Pridemage, K-Grip, etc), so it's value has gone down IMHO. Also, it doesn't answer land like Vindicate does. So ultimately it's less versatility for a potentially less permenent disruption piece. It obviously has some advantages in terms of dealing with Emmy, coming in off SNT, and being tutorable though, so like I say...I haven't given up on it...but I'm having a more difficult time justifying it, especially since I'm considering removing wastelands from my 75.

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Originally Posted by Anthem

I always run 3 Extirpate, and have been thinking about 4 since I can't tutor it. It ruins so much of this meta.

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Yes and no. The problem I have with extirpate is that it doesn't actually answer combo. If you can make them discard a combo piece then it becomes a valuable card, but if you don't see a discard spell before your opponent goes off then the card is completely dead. Also, if they brainstorm and hide their combo pieces from your discard the extirpate value goes down even further. Also, much of the combo decks in the meta are now showing some redundancy with combo pieces - Sneak Show is one example, the idea of running NO and Show and Tell together is another, Reanimator is full of redundancy...you get the idea. So, generally being proactive against the current field of combo isn't necessarilly going to get you there - generally I'm finding that reaction is better in most situations.

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Originally Posted by Anthem

I've been looking at Stillmoon Cavalier again. I remember being told he wasn't optimal, but the protections and ability to Fly/First Strike seem tempting, plus the synergy with SoBM and Chrome Mox, though against Elspeth. Would it also be because he can't get across the red zone very well?

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The problem I currently have with stillmoon is that he's mana intensive in a deck that already mana intensive. Also, cards with Lightning in the title are becoming more prevelant in the meta. I think the idea that his protections don't play with Elspeth and Mom is generally irrelevent in most matchups - especially Elspeth since it's just as easy for her to make tokens and jump them instead. And in a lot of matchups mom is going to be trying to give protection from white anyway, so the fact that she can't target Stillmoon becomes highly irrelevant. Generally, IMHO, the only place where the Mom/Stillmoon interaction really impacts gameplay is against decks that run Bolts or Lavamancer (Trash, RUG, Zoo, etc)...so if you are currently running mom to shore up some of those matches then you'd need to do some re-thinking if you run stillmoon.

That being said - Bant has no way to deal with this guy, neither do any of the combo decks in the meta. If nothing else, I think that makes this card better than at least Vampire Nighthawk (who also dies to lightning and has mana issues of his own), and maybe even crusader since he at least dodges removal and offers evasion. However, that's not where the superiority ends...because the card has all of the evasion of nighthawk, plus the resiliency, plus it's easier to cast. I think the other thing to be considered is how well this card pairs with SoFI - 4 protections is nothing to sneeze at....of course that doesn't include green....but the BM sword seems like a logical choice against the bant builds anyway. Unfortunately there isn't a sword that offers pro Red and Green or this dude would be even better. Generally though, I think the Pro-Green is something that isn't that important for Stillmoon, since he can jump - and green removal isn't prevelant in legacy (yet).

More than anything I think Stillmoon really shines when there's an opposing Knight of the Reliquary - the ability to just stall the game indefinately is a definate plus for us with all of our late game card advantage.

In the current meta, with equipment, I think stillmoon is a no-brainer for anyone that is using nighthawk...but if you use him in lieu of nighthawk you need to consider the fact that you're loosing the lifelink, and therefore take another look at cards like thoughtseize and bitterblossom. Also, you should take another look at what equipment you're using, since generally you don't want to double up protections, since this is the guy that is probably going to be doing most of the heavy lifting in the deck.

I think you are absolutely correct to be looking at this guy again.

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

What you think of this.. Its actually been working quite well, nothing was unwinnable(ok dredge and combo game 1 :) ) theres just one thing im "missing" comparing to other lists - the sac via edict or gatekeeper... How would you squeeze it in? And what would you use? What I was thinking:
-2 MM +2 Gatekeeper?
or rather - 2 Mirran Crusader + 2 Gatekeeper?
What would you suggest? Thanks and Greetings

Edit: And where to squeeze in Senseis Divining Top?

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Gatekeeper I think is generally a bad idea and greedy for a deck already running elspeth and crusader. You can always run Edicts in the board if you really think you need them, but I'm more prone to suggesting Phyrexian Metamorph anyway - it's easier to cast, has more versatility, tutorable, and answers most of the threats that you need edict effects for anyway.

If you're dying for Top then I'd probably just look for an E-Tutor package since you're already running Bitterblossom, Moxen, and 3 equipment. Also, E-Tutor makes a lot of sense in a deck that is already going to a heavier white build.

IMHO, E-Tutor is a straight swap for bitterblossom, and/or you can cut your vindicates to 2 pretty easilly as well - if you felt like you were missing the removal you could replace one of them with O-Ring. So...

-1 Bitterblossom
-2 Vindicate

+1 E-Tutor
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

You could even cut a second bitterblossom for a second tutor if you found that the deck could support it. Essentially, you still have the same chances of landing a turn 2 Bitterblossom OR the same chances of getting that permanent removal that you need to answer a troublesome Jace or equipment....all while giving you a way to run top without disturbing the versatility that your deck already has. This is one of the reasons I love E-Tutor.

This suggestion is pretty similar to what I'm doing:

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bitterblossom
1 E-Tutor

And the Revoker may go to the board in favor of another E-Tutor. Basically, in my deck, the Metamorph and Revoker are taking the place of Vindicates, they aren't straight up removal, but they do serve as comperable answers to many of the threats that I'm running vindicate for - but they have the added bonus of being able to carry swords, and upping the creature count in our deck is pretty crucial.

I am really sorry and I dont wanna look as I didnt appreciate your knowledge about DGA but what would you do for DiviningTop if I dont want Enlightened Tutor at all, I had him once, I dont like him sorry, what changes would you like then?

+1 Top or +2 anyways?

There's nothing wrong with disliking E-Tutor, it's strictly a preferance call. It is card disadvantage after all, and it's relatively slow, it was a tough sell for me at first too.

If you don't want to run E-tutor at all I'd probably do a straight swap for Vindicates for them (2 for 2). I know when I first ran the deck I thought I couldn't live without 4 vindicates, but I've found that as long as I have some Path's in the sideboard that Vindicate really isn't all the important anymore (at least in my meta), since we already have wasteland to deal with troublesome lands, and discard for everything else - generally I've found that vindicates were the most sided out card throughout the past few months of me playign this deck.

Oh damnit I must sound like a little nerd...sorry...really sorry.... what if I dont wanna give out Vindicates? Because actually I cant life without them :) Too many decks in my meta where they are the only winoption preboard? Thaaank you very much :) I was thinking of -1 cc1 Discard and... maybe 1 land

haha...yeah, discard and land were probably my next suggestion as well. Discard can probably go to a minimum of 6, but I would caution against cutting your 1cmc discard too deep - it really is extremely valuable when protecting your threats. Also, with moxen I wouldn't feel terrible about going to as few as 21 land...which could probably be 20 if you weren't running elspeth. Land is especially easy to cut when you're adding top too.

Just out of curiosity - what in your meta is so dominant and is only answerable by Vindicate?

^^ my meta contains most likely of my friends and beating Affinity without Vindicate is kinda...brutal, same for Enchantress, but ok I exegerated when saying its a 100% but you know... I bought it 1 week ago - i know its no argument but still :) Thanks for you patience bud, once Im home from Oxford where I am atm (like back on Monday) or earlier when I got time, ill post my Decklist again and yeah...
I got another question: Im trading witht he locals tomorrow evening...
They want my Merrowset... and maybe my Aether Vialset....

And yeah I need from them Scrubland, SoFaI; Top...

What should i suggest?
like Merrow+Vial= 1 Scrub 1 SoFai + 2 Top
Or what? any suggestions?

Thanks

I just got my foiled Phyrexian Crusader's so time to try them out against red based aggro.

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Originally Posted by bokwinkle

Yes and no. The problem I have with extirpate is that it doesn't actually answer combo. If you can make them discard a combo piece then it becomes a valuable card, but if you don't see a discard spell before your opponent goes off then the card is completely dead. Also, if they brainstorm and hide their combo pieces from your discard the extirpate value goes down even further. Also, much of the combo decks in the meta are now showing some redundancy with combo pieces - Sneak Show is one example, the idea of running NO and Show and Tell together is another, Reanimator is full of redundancy...you get the idea. So, generally being proactive against the current field of combo isn't necessarilly going to get you there - generally I'm finding that reaction is better in most situations.

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This reminds me of a situation I observed a few weeks ago. I cobbled together a WB deck and gave it to my friend to play in his first Legacy Tournament. He didn't win much, but the one match that he did win...well, let me tell you. He lost Game 1, and sided in Extirpate. In Games 2-3, he won because he Extirpated Brainstorm. He thought that he was being slick by removing all the Brainstorms from his opponent's deck...But in reality, what he was actually doing was crippling his opponent by forcing the shuffle. He'd play a discard spell, and when his opponent Brainstormed in response to hide his best cards, my friend would just cast Extirpate. It was brutal. In Game 2, the friend hit a Brainstorm after casting Thoughtseize to see that his opponent had another Brainstorm in hand. The real issue was that the opponent Brainstormed his combo cards away since he had Spell Pierce in hand to counter any counterable spell, untap, cast Brainstorm to draw his combo, and have the mana to win on the same turn. In Game 3, the opponent hid two crucial lands from a Hymn to Tourach just to have them shuffled away. Is that even remotely viable as a strategy, or was it just "something that happened?"

wow seriously that's quite a grand story! Well it's a mini 2-card combo but it sounds really neat. Until the blue players start figuring out that you're up to such a 'dirty trick', i guess there's no harm trying it out :)

Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?

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Originally Posted by Philipp802

Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?

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Surgical Extraction seems better (being able to cast for free after T1 TS/IoK or T2 Hymn), it's less of a tempo hit/investment and even it still seems weak for MB slots.

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wow seriously that's quite a grand story! Well it's a mini 2-card combo but it sounds really neat. Until the blue players start figuring out that you're up to such a 'dirty trick', i guess there's no harm trying it out :)

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That's kind of an old hat though, this move has been decent vs combo since the printing of Extirpate and been executed more regularly since Thoughtseize redefined 1CC-discard.

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Ye ive been thinking of including 2 extirpate mainboard... sometimes I cast it at 1st turn fetch :) what you think guys?

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If you want that maindeck, I'd recommend Surgical Extraction, because it's much better to know the content of their hand before extracting. If you just extirpate a fetch you might randomly screw them, but more often than not you will just waste a card to thin their deck a little bit (especially given how enemy-fetchlands have greatly increased diversity among fetches).
With t1 discard into Surgical Extraction you at least make sure to hit a card that actually hurts them and it can all be done on turn one (tyvm, phyrexian mana).

/€dith: Going afk for half an hour will get you ninja'd, Ill tell you that... :D

Then again, I wouldn't recommend MD Extraction/Extirpate unless Dredge/Reanimator/Loam is a major compound of your metagame. Against combo there are better cards with broader application.
All of this has been discussed over and over again (for several decks) since Extirpate has been printed and overall the conclusion is that you will randomly draw it against Zoo or [insert-control-deck-du-jour-here] and it will screw you instead of the opponent.

Have replaced all my mirran crusaders for phyrexian obliterators now and added phyrexian crusader in the board. Having problem finding Fetid Heaths in foil.

4 Stoneforge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Phyrexian Obliterator

3 Mental Misstep
2 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to plowshare
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind

3 Chrome Mox
4 Swamps
4 Scrublands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Fetid Heath
4 Wastelands

board atm
3 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of War and Peace

What about saying a bit about your list? no?
Nah nvm then ill say something.
You are playing what I would consider as "new traditional DeadguyAle" much black, not much white. I personally dont like it that much but ok. How do you find 4 Gatekeepers? Isnt this a bit over the top? Id advise to play 2-3.
With such a heavyblack manabase, I think its ok running 2 Obliterators.. even though I dont consider them as useful as a Mirran Crusader, because you can just shoot them with StP (ok you can do that with mirran too) and he doesnt have that much Evasion with your Equipments, but the good point of him, even without Equipments hes kinda nice to be honest. So ye, a decent choice.
Your Discard looks pretty good aswell, and you chose Chrome Mox <3 :)
But now some other questions: What do you think of 3 Mental Misstep? Are they worth it? Do they provide enough tempo?
And why the hell 2 Phyrexian Arenas, arent 4 Confis enough?
What else I am worried about your deck is the life... You got 4 Confi ( 2 Obliterator in deck), 2 Arena and 4 TS - How does this work out? Is it ok? Or do you think it hits you too high?

Greetings

Lifespan on Confidants arent the longest and I have found most matchups are won by drawing more then 1 card per turn. Obliterator got enought Evasion for equipments trample + sacrificing permanents when taking damage. As for the life, as long removing creature damage with removal and Gatekeepers it works fine. Against the red based decks I have 3 Phyrexian Crusaders and a Sword of war and Peace against them in an additional to Obliterators, batterskull and Jitte. The Obliterator dont need the swords to be good and it dont get killed by Gempalm incinerator, Grim Lavamancer or Bolt as easy unlike mirran Crusader.

Missteps are great to some degree. A card that is easy to board out when its bad and being very good when its good. The self made damage might be Suicidal but I like it. Its not like TS is good against the red Burn based decks and a few are boarded out. The curve is 1.38 so still lower then 1.5 damage per card drawn from bob as well I do run less fetchlands so will take less damage from fetching. As long as able to trade, chump and 2 for 1 them the lifeloss is ok. Using mostly the Misstep for Protection rather then Tempo. Like wont be countering a Nacatle if I have multiple sword / vindicate / Gatekeeper in my hand, chance of having more then just 1 of them is quite big.

For the Arena, if I could run 8 dark Condidants I would but now thats not legal:P

I have been liking the gatekeepers very much, having Maverick everywhere as well as random goblin, merfolk and Iona Decks I like having more then just sword for removal. It also adds to the card advantech approach the deck is following

Vindicate is by far the most card I do imprint on my Chrome early moxes.

I totally agree with you on the most points... but the Arena... Meh :) Maybe I just dont like it, why dont you add 2 Tops in this spot? Provide nice CQ and can dodge removal. Thats what Id do.

Dont really run enought fetch for top nor would I like to run more fetch. And I dont want to be more affected by Missteps. Also Arena dodges Misstep but also the more importantly it dodge spellsnare wich is probly the best counter spell against me / us. It has wooping 17 maindecked targets.

I don't necessarily dislike Phyrexian Arena here. It does sort of what Jace, The Mind Sculptor does for some BUG/Team Americaish lists. Lets your 1-for-1 game be a significantly better strategy. Conceptually, it intrigues me.

I have two questions about your list, Rizso:

1. Why are you running Fetid Heath without Mirran Crusader in your list? I can't see a reason for it unless you need to hit double white for some reason.

2. With Misstep, Thoughtseize, Arena, Confidant, no Top manipulation, and a high curve, how are you surviving your own power?

The curve before with crusaders instead of the Obliterators was 1.35 and 1 .38 after.

You are indeed correct with the Heaths, They are kind of a left over from before. But they do smooth out the mana incase you have to imprint a white card onto the Chrome Mox. So might change one out for a an additional basic swamp. Also lets me cast 2 white spells from the land alone with no other white source.

I had more problems with My own health before when I ran with Bitterblossom in the list. But i choose rather then using blossoms I want to use my life points to push through a active stoneforge / Obliterator or draw extra cards then geting thoes awesome faeries.

Is Mother of Runes still decent? Playing a list with a lot of active distuption and a number of Mental Missteps It could lead to some decent opening plays (Mom, misstep the removal, Thoughtseise, either take the removal or don't see any, next turn Surgical Extraction > mom) and outside of walling it protects the Confidants/ lets mystic stay on the board to make Batterskull more removal-evasive. This is what I ended up with:

20 Permanents
Mother of Runes x4
Stoneforge Mystic x4
Dark Confidant x4
Batterskull x2
Sword of Feast and Famine x1
Jitte x1
Sensei’s Diving Topx2
Bitterblossoom x2


18 non permanents
Inquisition x3
Thoughtseize x3
Hymn x3
Surgical Extraction x2
Swords to Plowshares x4
Mental Misstep x3

Good, bad, trash?

Ez all, I'm new to the board, I read a lot of the topic, but I still have a few questions:

Is gatekeeper of malakir really that good in this deck? isn't geth's verdict / diabolic edict a better choice (I've seen it in some lists, but the question is really about the gatekeeper) isn't it to black mana expensive to play? or do the dual take good care?
I also want to run mom, good or bad choice? 3 or 4 times?

Main reason for Gatekeeper, you get a 2/2, your opponent looses a Creature. Board-Impact and CA in one. The costs are the other side, my deck supports it via Duals and Fetid Heath, other Decks don't. Try it out with your deck and make your decision

I wrote a primer, a bit time ago which has been totally ignored but anyways, maybe it helps you:


Ive been cruising this thread for ages, and from the begining I was wondering why this thread doesnt have a primer. So I decided to write one. Dear Moderators, if you judge this primer to be good enough to be on page 1, move it to there. Thanks!

Introduction:Lets start off with the question: "What is Deadguy Ale?"
First of all its an Controldeck. Some would say its and Aggro-Controldeck. Its build in the colors black and white.
So thats the basics. In facts its one of the sliperiest decks, because there is not, unlike in decks like Zoo or GW for example, a list to beat or just a perfect lists. You can play this deck very differently. But thats jus tthe introduction.

The basics:


Lands: What to start with when building a deck? Yeah, its the manabase.
What is a musthave at the manabase from Deadguy Ale?

1) Wasteland : Everyone knows, what this card is for, unbelieveable tempogain and can eliminate some utilitylands. Recommended to play 4 of them.

2) Scrubland : Yeah, the white-black dualland. The purposes are obvious. Play 4 of them.

3) Marsh Flats : The appropriate Fetchie. Dont play less than 4.

4) Verdant Catacombs (or any other appropriate Fetchie): Just to increase the fetchiecount, play 2 more fetchies.

5) Fetid Heath: This card is very strong, even though its not tutorable. It allows you to play T2 Hymn to Tourach, and T3 Mirran Crusader. It depens on your personal liking how much of them you play. I would advise to play 1-3

6)Basiclands: Ye of course some Basiclands, Swamps and Plains.

Creatures: I wont mention all the creatures who actually has seen play in and DGA list in any time, just the recent ones.

1) Dark Confidant: CA-Machine in person. Dont play less than 4.

2) Stoneforge Mystic: It might depend on the hype at the moment on Stoneforge Mystics, but Ive hardly seen a recent list not playing 4.

3) Mother of Runes: Some like her as a decent T1 drop. She isnt playable in all Deadguy Ale builds but especially in the Aether Vial build shes very useful. When playing her, play 3-4

4) Tidehollow Sculler: When running Aether Vial you should play him, 4 of him.

5) Mirran Crusader: When your deck has got a high white-count or runs enough Fetid Heaths, play this guy. Id recommend 2-3 of this one. When hes equipped he can kill enemies in a few rounds. Plus his protection is kinda nice.

6) Jotun Grunt: Some like him, some dont. One is for sure: He isnt weak. Preboard graveyardhate with a solid body. Nothing bad at all. When playing him play 2.

7) Gatekeeper of Malakir: When running a blackbased list or running enough Fetid Heaths (even with Fetid heaths your decks has to be deep black) take this guy. Hes a perfect CA creature. Coming into play and killing a creature- even with protection. And then he might just be an equipment bearer.

8) Serra Avenger: When running Aether Vial you can take this girl. Shes pretty decent: 2 Mana for a 3/3 flying with vigilance at T3 isnt bad at all.

9) Vampire Nighthawk: This guy is very good aswell. He is a 2/3 deathtouch lifelink for just 3 Mana. He can get you back lost lives or just chumblockes with any fattie.

10) Phyrexian Obliterator: Ok, when I said deep-black up there, I mean deepdeep-black here. But when your deck is like only black or stuff you can run this guy. If well protected hes a decent clock because not many dare to block him due obvious reasons.

11) Phyrexian Revoker: Some actually like to play him mainboard. Hes a nice answer to many cards in Legacy. Though sometimes he might just be a dead card. Your decision.

Spells

1) Hymn to Tourach: Number 1 Discard in Legacy. Always changing 1-2. Always play 4.

2) Thoughtseize: If youd like even more Lifeloss then thats your card. A great discard but 2 dmg.

3) Duress: A nice discard without any lifeloss. Can take out any noncreature nonland. Against some decks it might be bad but most of the time its very nice.

4) Inquisition of Kozilek: This card is taking most of Legacies cards in general, even though it might not take expensive finishers.

5) Swords to Plowshares: Legacies Removal number 1. Always play 4 of this one.

6) Vindicate: Thats the swiss´army knife. Hits every permanent for 3 Mana. Sometimes it helps you getting your opponent getting manascrewed, sometimes its just a removal, sometimes it destroys some random artifact/enchantment - short: great card. Play 4.

7) Smother: When you need some more creature removal, take this one.

8) Path to Exile : When you need even more creature removal and dont care about the tempobonus you give the enemy, take this one.


Artifacts and Enchantments and Planeswalkers

1) Batterskull: As everyone is playing SFM at the moment you got to play 1 of these aswell.

2) Umezawa´s Jitte: The swiss´army knife under the equips. Id always recommend playing 1.

3) Sensei´s Divining Top: Provides nice cardquality and has some nice evasion with Bob(Dark Confidant)

4) Bitterblossom: When running a creature-light deck and you need an ultimate tokenproducer, take this card. Its just amazing and wins nearly every liferace. Play 2-4

5) Sword of Fire and Ice: The most aggresive sword available, it provides nice CA when letting you draw a card and killing some weaker creature of the enemy.

6) Sword of Light and Shadow: When running alot of (Utility)-creatures this sword provides a good choice.

7) Sword of Body and Mind: This sword offers the best protection, even though its abilities are weaker than SoFaI and SoLaS.

8) Elspeth, Knight-Errant: This is another very strong finisher, once your Equipment strategy failed this card takes place in winning the game for you. Run 2 of her.


Accelerators: There are 3 kinds of accelerators, even though one is already outdated.

1) Dark Ritual: Thats the outdated acceleration, barely anyone is playing this at the moment, but still some fans of this card do so. When using it, play 4.

2) Chrome Mox: Thats the most common accelerator when playing Deadguy Ale. Even though it produces some CDA at the beginning, but alongside running Chrome Mox you can run fewer lands and even might be able to cast Hymn or SFM T1. When using it, play 3.

3 Aether Vial: Even though this card isnt an acceleration at the first point, but it develops into an accelerationmachine when reaching the late earlygame when you cast a SFM via vial and some spells via your normal mana. When using it, play 4.


Tactics: Some would call DGA a controldeck, some would say its an aggro-control and some think its an midrange-deck. Well if you ask me its a combination of everything. It totally depends on your build. And yes DGA is an midrange deck, even though its a very controllike midrangedeck.
In general your aim is it to race trough the earlygame and try to take as few damage as possible. You rape your opponents hand with discard while you produce cardadvantage via Dark confidant and SFM. Once you reached the midgame you should be able to answer everything your oponent plays with (preventive) Discard or Removal. And a Batterskull or some equipped creature should win the game for your.
Well, easier said than done. What are the problems for this deck?
First of all and mostly aggro.... aggro and more aggro. I mean you can build your deck so its well prepared against aggro but many lists arent. Its very hard to race to the midgame when you got a bunch of damn cc1/free drops (see: Zoo/Affinity) on board. If you cant handle them fast and properly you are...lets say...nearly defeated.
And to make sure things like that dont happen you have accelerators. Starting T1 with a Hymn(via Chrome Mox) or even with Hymn + Duress/Inqui (via Dark Ritual) helps alot. But you dont have such a nice hand all the time. Wasteland is doing a nice job when racing to midgame aswell.
So when everything is running well the board is kinda cleared, you have got a Batterskull down there and maybe some Faerie or Dark Confidant equipped with any Sword or with Jitte. And whatever the enemy is doing, you let him discard it by instant (Aether Vial + Tidehollow Sculler in Draw segment) or you destroy it once it landed on board. Then you start hitting and pumping your lifepoints, so you can ensure letting your Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom work. Once you reached this point of the game: lean back, relax and enjoy your enemy getting smashed.

Matchup-analysis

Zoo: Lets start off with something very brutal. Its a very strong fast Aggro(burn)deck that might be able to smash your strategie easily with his early cc1 drops and his burn. But postboard it isnt that hard to win. But still this stays one of the hardest matchups DGA players have to face.

GW-Aggro: This matchup might seem easy for the first view and sometimes it actually is but remember one thing: this deck runs 4 Qasali Pridemages and 4 GSZ - so in fact 8 artefact destroyers. When they got too many Qasalis you can pray to get a Elspeth and overhelm them on this way or just try to cope with them without Equipments - which is very hard - I know.

Landstill: When you are fast enough to land an SFM down there you might be able to win this game easily. When not its an fair game without anyone being too superior.

NO-decks: When you can stop em early enough from accelerating (Noble Hierach, Birds of Paradise) you actually might be able to rape their hand fast enough and have an easy game. If not - say hi to Progenitus.

Storm/Dredge: You cant (as most of the other decks) really beat em first game, but you have access to really great sideboardcards like Extirpate or Ethersworm Canonist.

Death and Taxes: The most fair matchup i can imagine. Mostly depens on luck or skill who wins.

Merfolk: When you got a decent start without them interrupting you it shouldnt be too hard to kill this itchy fish. When landing a soon Jitte or Batterskull they shouldnt be able to recover fast enough.

Now some lists:

1) Thats the list from Tacosnape, possible the most experienced DGA player in this forum.
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Fetid Heath
3 Wasteland

3 Chrome Mox
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader

2) Thats the list I am running atm

Manabase
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Tower of the Magistrate

Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mirran Crusader

Artefacts
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Chrome Mox

Enchantment
3 Bitterblossom

Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate


Planeswalker
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Id be happy when you enjoyed reading this primer and maybe decided playing DeadGuy Ale now :)
Even though when you dont I hope you liked it.
If there are any mistakes or things youd like to add/mention just write an PM or post it.
Thanks, Godspeed and Farewell!

great primer, tnx!

I love gatekeeper btw, played it alot in my discard deck.
But I really have question with a BBB mana in combo with the white i wanna play (mirran crusader to be exact).
I might run vampire nighthawk in stead, but i like mirran more, double strike really is killer.. any suggestions?
Plannin on playing duals + Fetid Heath + marsh flats (only have it 3 times now) + verdant catacomb

any thoughts on not playing confidant, and only phyrexian arena?

It wouldnt be named BW-confidant without the Confidants :P

Confidant is with stoneforge mystic the most important creature to have. Chance of winning with 1 in play is alot larger then any other creature in deck.

Guys, Ive been trying to make some strange DGA list. Its running Elspeth (WW) Mirran (WW) and Gatekeeper (BBB) and Hymn (BB) at one time.
It works really good, if the enemy is too slow to manascrew you, you have an easy game to be honest.




>>>Manabase
4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Fetid Heath
3 Swamp
1 Plains

>>>White
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

>>>Black
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bitterblossom
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

>>>Black and White
4 Vindicate

>>>Colorless
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surak

I might run vampire nighthawk in stead, but i like mirran more, double strike really is killer.. any suggestions?
Plannin on playing duals + Fetid Heath + marsh flats (only have it 3 times now) + verdant catacomb

any thoughts on not playing confidant, and only phyrexian arena?

---

Nighthawk is terrible. I'm gonna stop myself right now before I go on a rant. He's bad, don't play him.

There's a reason Dark Confidant is $50 and decks splash black just for him, he's that good. The difference between two and three mana is huge in this deck, plus he carries a sword and you can get rid of him if you need to usually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter

Nighthawk is terrible. I'm gonna stop myself right now before I go on a rant. He's bad, don't play him.

There's a reason Dark Confidant is $50 and decks splash black just for him, he's that good. The difference between two and three mana is huge in this deck, plus he carries a sword and you can get rid of him if you need to usually.

---

True words Tim, what you think of my list? BBB and WW playable?
Thanks :) Im like very keen on 4 opinions: Letos, Tacos, Bookwinkles and yours - but everyone else may feel free to comment aswell ofc.

I'm going to agree with tim regarding nighthawk - nighthawk is generally not worth playing. For a long time I thought I was winning games with him, then I realized I was winning games because I needed a body to block/carry swords with evasion - and there are simply better creatures with those stat's IMHO.

--------------

Phillip, i have a few talking points.

First you play a lot of cards I wouldn't...lol. That's ok, though, I'm not going to get into that since I've been beating a dead horse for a while, and there are plently of winning lists that are running the cards that you (I think?), but for this reason you should definately take my advice with a grain of salt.

Second, generally I don't think you can hit your mana easilly enough - I'd just be cautious about your mana base if wasteland is prevelant in your meta. Personally, I'd never be able to run you list in my meta without dropping a couple games a night to wasteland.

Next, I'd be wary that 7 of your lands don't produce black on Turn 1 - goldfishing and playtesing will shake out the truth about if there are issues (or not), but the problem is that fixing it is not easy - without looking at the entire list and trying to make a descion about whether you want want to go heavy black or heavy white.

Also, I'd watch your quantity of turn 1 plays. There are at least a half a dozen decks in the current meta who's win percentage goes up drastically against a non-blue deck that goes turn 1, land, go. You have 7 turn 1 plays (Counting mox) - that means that you "generally" have a pretty good chance of hitting one of them on the play (90%+/-), but I think upping your count of 1 drops is probably a good idea, especially with the pressense of all of the combo in the meta.

Lastly, I generally don't like chrome Mox (personally preferance), but I understand the concept of dropping a 2-drop (on turn 1) that grants card advantage to combat the card disadvantage of the mox. What I have a problem with is when your "plan" is foiled by a bolt or a swords because your card advantage was bob or Stoneforge. For this reason, I think mox lists REALLY need to run Misstep - plus it does a lot to shore up the zoo matchup...and I feel like blue zoo is really picking up steam, so misstep seems like a no-brainer to me...plus it increases your 1 drops - where to cut for this? I'd start with vindicates and gatekeepers....but I understand you're reservations regarding cutting these particular cards...but that's where I'd start.

I wont cut vindicates, but why not gatekeepers, that would smooth out my manastuff wouldnt it? So... -3 Gatekeeper? + 3 MM? + 2 MM? what would you do? just tell me what you would do and ill try it out for sure :) Not said that ill keep it but ill try it out.