Don't know what your on, but I have been on the "Tone down Blue shit" train for years.
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Don't know what your on, but I have been on the "Tone down Blue shit" train for years.
just complainers and notorious U haters got more fuel in GP Columbus top 32 miracle efficiency... there always was this kind of sentiment in ta part of community, but you could find just about any sentiment if you asked the right question/right people.. there will always be someone complaining about present state of things instead of solving it for themselves (which could also never happen due to time/general commitment thus complaining instead)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
Unless this threads activity is your only source for community feedback, you should have noticed a longterm trend in discussions about of how to adjust to miracles in every damn thread on TheSource and in regards to the printings/metagame shifts over the last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
It's been like this for years. Miracles has been the most dominant deck ever since late 2013/early 2014. Maybe even earlier, but until then we hadn't seen enough of it ever since its debut in the summer of 2012.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
It just took the SCG meta a bite more than a year to mirror the meta development that was going on in Europe. I've been complaining about the deck when others were like "Miracles, yes I've heard about it."
Which was a time BEFORE cards like RIP, Mentor, Wear/Tear, C.Judgement and more were even printed. I think thats important to noteQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
One of the issues for (not with) Miracles is that it is a conventional deck. Unlike Dredge, Storm, Lands ect who play on an axis that is unique, Miracles plays within "The Rules". It's not trying to do something like flip it's deck into the grave, it's not trying to drop a Hoof and kill in a turn, it's not trying to cast 9 Spells and then Tendrils. It's just playing the game as intended.
What that means is that newer cards are more likely to fit into the deck. Not Miracles exclusively, DP goes in Storm, Prized in Dredge, it does happen, but the barrier for entry, as high as it is in Legacy to start with, is lower for a conventional deck.
Now I am not claiming that Miracles is the only deck that plays like this. DnT for example sees more new cards in Legacy more often, because it's creature centric style fits Wizards new philosophy better. No it's not the only, but it helps. And when your the best deck in the format and your chances of being able to absorb new cards is higher, that can cause an issue.
The reason why the temperature is rising on Miracles is that these new cards are being felt. If it was 2013 Counter top, well yea, no one is bitching. But shit like Wear//Tear, Mentor, Counsel's Judgement and Dig (Now gone) have slotted into the deck with little need for lubrication.
That's not a slight on the deck either. I mean Goblins is a rather conventional deck in play style as well, but it's vanished, so being conventional is not a weakness or a strength per say. It's just something to keep in mind when asking these kinds of questions, because it often works to your favour when your the top dog to keep getting reinforcements to help make sure you stay there.
I get that new cards have been aded to the deck in the recent time, but it doesn't deserve to be banned just because we're facing a new version. When I go to tournaments I don't see only mircles. People are still playing their decks, but they've just became intolerant to miracles, which is a bit strange considering it has been a dominant force for a very long time.
2.5 years of dominance plus a higher meta penetration. When you play against Miracles 1 out of 5 times on average (not too uncommon on MTGO, it already had 20+% meta penetration not long ago), it will suck out all the fun you had with the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
The issue I have with this statement is that Terminus is certainly not playing by the rules and I seriously doubt 1 mana instant speed horseshit Wraths is Magic as Richard Garfield has intended it. 4 Mana sorcery speed for unconditional sweepers have been the gold standard since forever with good reason - and the opportunity cost of Terminus is too low to be considered truely "conditional".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Sure, it doesn't win game T1 or T2 like combo does, but it still cripples your game state by not only sweeping your board, but the mere threat of Terminus hinders the game plan of any creature deck to avoid overextending. That outs outside of blue are almost non-existant (and permanent-based solutions are easily answered by Miracles) certainly doesn't help the issue.
Counterbalance was an issue back in 2009, but the format adapted and it became pretty much a non-issue for quite a while. Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip sure helped. It was actually kinda cool what mind games you had to play with each other when you knew your opponent had a 3 floating somewhere on top while he could tell you were looking for an opening for Krosan Grip. Pretty cool dance. But yeah, Counterbalance eventually left the format again and we moved in.
T̶r̶i̶g̶g̶e̶r̶ Enter Terminus. To this day, we have no even remotely playable way to interact with it outside of blue. Which is why the card is so frustrating and (unlike Counterbalance) hard to adapt to. It's not we haven't been trying for years.
So if you still don't wanna ban the card, fine. But at least give us SOMETHING to interact with it. If it destroyed or even buried creatures, there'd be tons of ways to interact with that. Cool ways even. Giving indestructibility, using Regeneration or utilizing awesome stuff like Bernd Fritsch's 4 Vengevine tech he used to run in Elves before Terminus cast an end to all of that. It's tragic how even Thrun, the eptimone of resilience has nothing on Terminus. Given "put under your library" doesn't allow for a lot of design space to counteract it since it neither targets nor destroys, but Thragtusk has shown us a way.
I can agree with that point, but I was meaning the way the deck runs. Your not playing on an off axis. Sure, you cheat mana costs, but your not casting something like SnT, your not tapping Elves and casting an 8 drop on the second or third turn and your not putting shit in your graveyard to make an army of tokens.
Miracles is within the standard subset of rules one expects for a deck, it can do nuts things yes, but it's a conventional warhead when you sit it next to something like Dredge or Storm.
As for what I dislike about Miracles, I dislike that it has no natural predators that you can expect to see play and be successful with. Someone will quote 12 post, I will respect state you should have read the whole comment. It's true, Miracles is a King without a Jester.
That said, if you listen to The Salt Mine, I started there two things I want to put here. I do not think it should have taken a hit last announcement. While it seems to be fading away, Eldrazi is a new deck on the block that brings change. Let it shake itself out first. Also, all we can really control is if we play or not.
I would like to see in the future something change, be that a new deck/card/technology that undermines Miracles or Wizards taking external action. If I lived somewhere where 20% of the meta was this deck and I have to face it once or twice a week, I would honestly stop playing. I do not enjoy facing it, I do not enjoy playing against it, I do not enjoy the amount of time Top eats up. On both sides. I played Miracles last week, something different, I did have a change of heart. I went from wanting Counterbalance gone to wanting Top gone in 3 hours of game play.
But that said, I like Eldrazi and others do not. For me to say that Eldrazi is a benefit to the format and claim Miracles is a detrimental impact to the format is a personal statement (I can back up with stats). I do not expect anyone else to agree. Some don't. But if you told me I had to keep one of those decks around I would pick the one that dies to Wasteland, Painter, Bloodmoon and Ensnaring Bridge. I would not pick the deck that has answers to just about every card because Wizards fucked up and printed TNN... (Stop "Fixing" Your mistakes with more mistakes Wizards.)
All the good cards are mistakes, many modern cards are not good for the eternal cardpool.
They are fixed and mostly not blue, if delver was a mistake then it should of been banned like dtt.
Miracles emerging unscathed from the last B&R announcement killed any of my desire to play Legacy in the next time. Running into 1-2 Miracle matches per league run is simply too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
As for answers to Miracles, don't expect anything - either Wizards will not care or they will fuck it up. Cards aimed to solve Eternal specific problems just add more problems instead of solving the original issue, e.g. Mental Misstep for Brainstorm, AD for Counterbalance (while not a problem per se, Lemnear posted the numbers how the metagame has shifted towards a blue vs. AD meta) or Council's Judgment for TNN.
Another problem comes from Maro's flawed design philosophy. Every color gets library manipulation/draw in some form nowadays - except white. The logic behind this is that white already has answers to pretty much everything. If you add library manipulation, it would be too good. Now said quality answers enter Legacy and meets Miracles with the best library manipulation of the format. Of course bad things are going to happen. And it will only get worse with the future.
I used to have interesting games against miracles where it would be scrapping and fighting and I'd really think about different lines and I probably win about 50% of the matches against it. Then I don't know what happened. I either got tired of the deck or mentor or councils judgement pushed it to the point that they now actually had answers to everything and it just became not even interesting. Now when I sit across from the deck I don't even try and just basically scoop. My last 2 miracles matches ended in about 12 minutes because I just don't care anymore. The deck doesn't provide interesting games anymore. It's just meh. I'll just take my loss and move on. I have similar feelings with when my opponent puts a jitte on a true name, or when dig through time was legal
Far from all good cards are mistakes: Planechase and Commander, for example, have given us Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Scavenging Ooze, Flusterstorm and Toxic Deluge, none of which seem to be "mistakes": They're all nice, simple, clean designs that do their job well and see a good deal of play, even spawned a new archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidneyious
Pretty much because these products (you forgot Conspiracy) are the only options for WotC to print "fixes" for Eternal Formats without potentially fucking up Standard. We could point to Dack Fayden who broke the MUD dominance in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
P.S.: We can be thankful that WotC decided last minute against the 2cc Cascade spell
At the time when thoes cards came out w/u.dec was still a dominant force.
Mostly to combat the zoo/ aggro decks and still didn't work out the way it was intended.
What did blue get when zoo was the dominant force?
Before zoo it was combo decks and they banned the ones at the time to the winds.
Now combo is not so big and all control had was foe and pacts.
Meanwhile non blue decks still hurt, I would love for affinity to be "tier 1" again but sadly that won't happen even if uw.dec gets a nerf.
Delver?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidneyious
Yeah, ever since the best creatures where the likes of Kird Ape, Erhnam Djinn, Serra Angel, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Wrath needed an update to stay relevant vs today's creatures. I do think they went a little too far with this - should have been a destroy effect or maybe had a miracle cost of :W: :W:. But the notion that sweepers should be 4cc sorceries is out of date.
I think 4 CMC is fine. Things like pyrockasm and such are also fine at 2-3 mana being conditional. But unconditional 1 mana is pretty egregious
Exactly. They're 5 CMC nowadays. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead