All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Well it's fine, then isn't it? 80% format penetration is not a problem at all if every deck ever plays the card while maintaining strategic diversity. If anything, the card would become a skill-testing pillar of the format.

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I'm all in favor of hyperboling to make a point clear, but you seem to assume that several Survical.decs would be able to co-exist, which I doubt. Survival has killed all diversity in the aggro segment before. Over time we would see a streamlining effect like for every other strategy. You can see that in regards to Delver for example right now with all the different traits other than Grixis dying. The diversity of Survival.dec would soon be as laughable as the diversity of SDT.dec

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

I also find it hard to believe that Storm combo hasn't gotten better in order to keep pace with Delver, Miracles and DnT.

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Thats quick to answer. Decay, Petition and PastInFlames were the only storm-relevant, impactful printings in the last 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

In any case, I have no idea how Survival is beating Omnitell when DnT gets kicked in the nuts repeatedly by that deck.

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Tutor RecSage in response to S&T?

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Well it's fine, then isn't it? 80% format penetration is not a problem at all if every deck ever plays the card while maintaining strategic diversity. If anything, the card would become a skill-testing pillar of the format.

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In all seriousness, exactly how different can two survival decks actually be in terms of the primary axis on which they operate, the ways they interact, and the ways the opponents want to interact with them?

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

In all seriousness, exactly how different can two survival decks actually be in terms of the primary axis on which they operate, the ways they interact, and the ways the opponents want to interact with them?

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Even if I am sure Zombie just made a joke here, I agree with the written. SotF leaves no room for diversity in terms of how to build a deck with SotF in it other than some flavors of the combo-finish (Retainers+Fatty, NecroticOoze+Griselbrand, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Tutor RecSage in response to S&T?

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Jim Davis talks about playing Angel of Despair against Show and Tell Decks:

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Originally Posted by Jim Davis

I played it cool and targeted the Omniscience like it was no big deal. In response to the trigger, he cast a free Cunning Wish for Stifle and Stifled the trigger. I was a bit taken aback, but of course that was fine—I Mindbreak Trapped the Stifle. He cast Force of Will on my Mindbreak Trap. Uh oh. He then cast Enter the Infinite for free, drew his deck, cast three Emrakuls, and won (essentially) on turn 2.

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Source

Magical christmas land is a very stupid place.

I still am no closer to understanding why Survival would be busted in the current legacy meta. I give up.

I think if you are worried about Omniscience that Canonist might be a better play. Shuts them down for the rest of the turn so you can tutor up an answer the next turn.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I think if you are worried about Omniscience that Canonist might be a better play. Shuts them down for the rest of the turn so you can tutor up an answer the next turn.

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Another option. Could also be Thalia or a million other creatures to mess with various Permanents put into play.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm all in favor of hyperboling to make a point clear, but you seem to assume that several Survical.decs would be able to co-exist, which I doubt. Survival has killed all diversity in the aggro segment before. Over time we would see a streamlining effect like for every other strategy. You can see that in regards to Delver for example right now with all the different traits other than Grixis dying.

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I think that this has less to do with streamlining and narrowing the field of viability than it does with a combination of Pyromancer being the best threat against Miracles and Grixis being less expensive to build than either RUG or BUG - especially because lots of people hopped on the Ur Delver bandwagon for GP Treasure Cruise.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I think that this has less to do with streamlining and narrowing the field of viability than it does with a combination of Pyromancer being the best threat against Miracles and Grixis being less expensive to build than either RUG or BUG - especially because lots of people hopped on the Ur Delver bandwagon for GP Treasure Cruise.

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Fair points. However, isn't streamlining always in the context of the metagame structure per sé?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Earthcraft I could see making enchantress a viable tier 1-2 deck. Or maybe it's still just not. The big thing is that I think it would draw more people to play the deck which would help its case. I think it's viable now. It just doesn't have a high number of players like the brainstorm orgy decks that place consistently

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I often wonder about this myself.

I think if a new deck becomes possible, or if an old deck gets new tech, the community is very good at development an innovation. But I think the community is less good at revisiting old decks that haven't got anything new but nonetheless might have improved because the meta has shifted in its favour.

The community is also bad at developing/revisiting decks that need obscure and expensive Legends rares that have limited crossover in the format. :frown:

An Earthcraft unban might be the catalyst that gets people thinking about the deck again.

Then again Abrupt Decay is terrible for Enchantress, which used to benefit from a format devoid of main-deck enchantment D. I'm not sure how Enchantress would handle the Chalices which abound these days too.

Earthcraft would be my number is choice if I could take one card off the list. That or Twist - it would be nice of Elves and/or Tezzerator could get a little love.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Fair points. However, isn't streamlining always in the context of the metagame structure per sé?

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Also fair. I think that access plays a fairly large role in this context because BUG is definitely better against Eldrazi and (in my experience, at least) most combo and its Miracles matchup isn't that much worse than Grixis' (and neither is favored). Johnathan Alexander's RUG list is also defensible if you're looking at a very heavy Miracles + combo meta, though I don't think it's very good in the Delver pseudo-mirror or against Eldrazi.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I often wonder about this myself.

I think if a new deck becomes possible, or if an old deck gets new tech, the community is very good at development an innovation. But I think the community is less good at revisiting old decks that haven't got anything new but nonetheless might have improved because the meta has shifted in its favour.

The community is also bad at developing/revisiting decks that need obscure and expensive Legends rares that have limited crossover in the format. :frown:

An Earthcraft unban might be the catalyst that gets people thinking about the deck again.

Then again Abrupt Decay is terrible for Enchantress, which used to benefit from a format devoid of main-deck enchantment D. I'm not sure how Enchantress would handle the Chalices which abound these days too.

Earthcraft would be my number is choice if I could take one card off the list. That or Twist - it would be nice of Elves and/or Tezzerator could get a little love.

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Enchantress tends to be significantly favored against the Decay decks since they tend to be too slow to kill before Enchantress goes way over the top. If I could guarantee that I'd run into 4c Delver, Loam, and Shardless BUG in 90% of my rounds, I'd always play Enchantress.

It's actually in a very interesting meta position. It's fair matchups aren't quite as good as Lands' though it's not susceptible to nonbasic land or graveyard hate and it's actually favored against Miracles and Lands. On the other hand, its combo matchups are just as bad as Lands' (if not worse) and Infect and Elves are much larger problems for it than they are for Lands.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I think that access plays a fairly large role in this context...

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Sucks when money warps the metagame. :frown:

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I often wonder about this myself.

I think if a new deck becomes possible, or if an old deck gets new tech, the community is very good at development an innovation. But I think the community is less good at revisiting old decks that haven't got anything new but nonetheless might have improved because the meta has shifted in its favour.

The community is also bad at developing/revisiting decks that need obscure and expensive Legends rares that have limited crossover in the format. :frown:

An Earthcraft unban might be the catalyst that gets people thinking about the deck again.

Then again Abrupt Decay is terrible for Enchantress, which used to benefit from a format devoid of main-deck enchantment D. I'm not sure how Enchantress would handle the Chalices which abound these days too.

Earthcraft would be my number is choice if I could take one card off the list. That or Twist - it would be nice of Elves and/or Tezzerator could get a little love.

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Aren't the more urgent questions for Enchantress all in regards to combo and Decay?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Aren't the more urgent questions for Enchantress all in regards to combo and Decay?

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See above for my thoughts as an Enchantress player. Combo is the problem, not Decay.

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Originally Posted by btm10

See above for my thoughts as an Enchantress player. Combo is the problem, not Decay.

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A Deathknell for Legacy decks more often than not

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

A Deathknell for Legacy decks more often than not

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Absolutely. You need pretty incredible non-combo matchups to make up for awful combo matchups (I'd say that Lands' non-combo matchups are about the floor for it). I think Enchantress gets there with Earthcraft unbanned, but without it 60% against most of the non-combo decks isn't enough.

I always used to run a tool-box sideboard, but maybe Enchantress needs a SB more like Lands - dense with combo hate?

- Load up on Humility and O-Rings for Reanimator/SnT.
- Leylines, Rule of Law, and Stone Silence for Storm.
- Humility, Moon, and Rule of Law for Elves.

If combo is the big issue, I'm not sure if Earthcraft FTW is even fast enough to help those matches.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Absolutely. You need pretty incredible non-combo matchups to make up for awful combo matchups...
...I think Enchantress gets there with Earthcraft unbanned, but without it 60% against most of the non-combo decks isn't enough.

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That's a way Earthcraft could help compensate for poor combo matches.

But Lands can steal games from combo with a fast Marit Lage sometimes, and we have a solid match vs Elves. Not sure if Enchantress can do the same. This means it might need even better non-combo matches than Lands to keep up.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Well it's fine, then isn't it? 80% format penetration is not a problem at all if every deck ever plays the card while maintaining strategic diversity. If anything, the card would become a skill-testing pillar of the format.

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*slow clap*

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Originally Posted by btm10

Absolutely. You need pretty incredible non-combo matchups to make up for awful combo matchups (I'd say that Lands' non-combo matchups are about the floor for it). I think Enchantress gets there with Earthcraft unbanned, but without it 60% against most of the non-combo decks isn't enough.

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I'd be willing to discuss it further via the enchantress thread, but it's like you said, combo is much worse than Decay is. Sterling Grove exists and is excellent. As for combo I guess you can overload on hate. Honestly I'd rather play against storm and SnT than elfs and infect. The hate is far easier to resolve and keep on the field

One more month added where Miracles reigns supreme with no contest.

Nice to see Infect in there though.