Ok, I agree on the Sower thing, and how you describe the matchups..Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
But something more important :D Whats your opinion on Sphinx of Jwar Isle?
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Ok, I agree on the Sower thing, and how you describe the matchups..Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
But something more important :D Whats your opinion on Sphinx of Jwar Isle?
What's Calcite Snapper??? He's a game-winner. I've tested him and every time I've got him down against Zoo or ANT/TES he's single-handedly won me the game. Against Bant, it can stall until I get a Jace or Sphinx online. Shroud turtle is for real. I like the turtle more than Propaganda because he can be a wall or a fast clock. Propaganda + Back to Basics is an awesome "lock" but it is very fragile (Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip). In the situations where I've had both pieces lock down the opponent, I would have simply won with B2B anyway. I'd rather have the turtle for versatility.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
For the record, my win-conditions used to be Call the Skybreaker and Rainbow Efreet. Now they are Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Calcite Snapper
Yes, the shroud turtle can be a wall. but against one single and small creature.
propaganda blocks a group of goblins
snapper can block just one. (e.g. with propaganda piledriver is an angry 1/2, with snapper it is a big as he wants).
Propaganda + B2B don't let opponent both play or attack (with some troubles).
think of an hypotetic match against canadian having no-base-lands in play + tarmo (4/5) + mongoose. Would you prefere having propaganda + b2b on board or would you like 2 snappers? I have my unswer.
Opponents don't krosan b2b, they are tapped out. Or they have lost at least 2 turns try to collect enought mana to play it. (I Play b2b just when the opponent has his duals/wasteland tapped). If they have lost 2 turns It's good I think.
Qasali is played by 2 decks only. zoo and bant. very popular decks. Zoo It's the easiest match up of this metagame for muc. If I could chose who to play agains I would say zoo.
Bant has got 2 dangerous cards for me: counterbalance & quasali. wow, they cost 2. So I have 12 counters for them. No matter If tarmo or rhox enters. I will lock him just playing my cards and countering qasali & balance. G2 you also have pithing needle. (Yes, they have also FoW. But I'm better because I drow more and best)
Of course happens that our lock gets brocken. but's a lock. snapper is a weeker-lock but does not depend on some other card. If I'll find b2b-propaganda so easy to breack, I would look for something else.
As for the winning conditions. Jace is really good against some decks. really good. but sometimes useless against other decks. I guess that's why you also have sphinx. they can be good together I guess.
@ maarten: the day sphinx got printed, I substituted 1 morphling with one and directly tried in a turnament. I didn't like her because she is an offensive only creature because she cannot block tarmo 5/6 (it's usual size) or I sometimes needed to block a tombstalker loosing 1/3 of my winning conditions. Morphling can block even phyrexian dreadnought if you have mana, and attack the same time. There is a reason why he used to be called superman. he can do everithing we need: protect us, protect himself, attack... alltogether.
Most aggro decks don't have enough creatures in play to justify playing Propaganda. The exception would obviously be Goblins; however, Propaganda + B2B doesn't really do too much against Goblins, as they can fetch out their basics - they don't always have multiple Wasteland where this will shut them down. If the opponent has multiple goblins in play, even with Propaganda + B2B, you are going to lose the game. The other exception to the swarms would be Affinity. Yes, this lock is broken against Affinity; however, I've won every Affinity match-up in less than 10 minutes on the shoulders of Powder Keg alone. Powder Keg > Affinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
Is the Mongoose a 1/1? If so, I'd rather have the 2x turtle and a Back to Basics. Nonetheless, I'd be surprised if you can get out Propaganda + B2B against Canadian Threshold with that board position without either being in an unwinnable situation already or, if it's late game, to keeping the lock in play, seeing as they run Krosan Grip. The opponent doesn't have to attack through the Propaganda, as you have no clock. He or she can simply wait for the Krosan Grip or Wipe Away and blow you out of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
Good players rarely completely tap out, especially when looking at basic Islands. Not to mention, a lot of decks are running enough basic lands to function. Even Zoo runs at least 3 basics, which is more than enough to fully win the game for them. Zoo players fetch out basic Plains + basic Mountain + basic Forest and will win on the shoulders of Qasali Pridemage or KGrip away the lock and overrun (literally, not the card) you. The main exceptions of decks running basics are Supreme Blue and Canadian Threshold, but they have answers in countermagic, Engineered Explosives and/or Krosan Grip. Yes, B2B is a great card - I'm not saying it isn't - I'm saying your lock is easily cracked.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
You don't always have that Spell Snare for turn 2 kitty or turn 2 Counterbalance, especially since you are running 3x of them in certain situations. Since you don't run Brainstorm, can you really say you have better draw (in the early game) than Bant? Impulse doesn't come online until Qasali Pridemage/Counterbalance is already in play, which means your actual card advantage engine, Fact or Fiction, definitely isn't online.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
It's simply too slow. By the time you get the lock online, it may have already been too late. Shroud turtle provides more options, as it can serve the same roll as Propaganda (seeing as many decks don't have swarms of creatures) and it is also a clock for slower decks or combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
I actually find Jace in the same category of Call the Skybreaker; it provides inevitability for the deck. I only sideboard it out against Zoo, as it can easily be rid of and is simply too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
For reference, I also do not run strictly Mono-Blue anymore because resolved creatures were really getting annoying in the aggro-heavy games I was facing. I now run a nearly Mono-Blue deck, as I splash red for Lightning Bolt (and Firespout out of the sideboard). Initially Lightning Bolt was Fire//Ice, but I found that card couldn't kill anything.
My list looks like:
Land (24)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
12 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mountain
Artifact (6)
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (3)
2 Calcite Snapper
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Enchantment (3)
3 Back to Basics
Other Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
Sideboard (15)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Spell Pierce
I can answer any question about individual card choices and what I do against certain match-ups, but I'm not going to go into extensive detail about it all now. I know I want a second Jace, but I don't want to cut anything else (and I don't own a second Jace) so I don't think I'm going to put another in. Calcite Snapper is a powerhouse in my list, but then again many creatures aren't hitting play. This may not be true MUC, but it is still plays exactly like it, only now it has spot removal (yay!).
B2B + Propaganda wins against threshold. If you play propaganda, your opponent has to decide weather attack you or not. when he taps, here comes back to basics. (Mongoose is a 3/3 shroud and goyf 5/6 against us usually)
ok, you say he waits for krosan grip (which is not a mainboard card)... good! I play a further b2b, propaganda or shackles. and it gets worse for him. And my Morphling faces tarmo 5/6 too, your creatures don't.
I see you play lightning bolts maindeck. Wouldn't you prefere swords to plowshares?
I guess you prefere red splash because so that you can use Firespout in the sideboard. Very powerfull card... If you need firespout it means you are not that strong vs aggro-decks.
Propaganda wins vs goblin because he can attack with 1 maximum 2 creatures. Shackles & or Morphling finish the work. I wonder how you stop goblin (bolt or egineered ?.. he would tutor an other one).... a piledriver vs me is maximim a 3/2. wow.
I wonder how you stop Ichorid too withour propaganda. (just explosives/powder keg = 3 cards?), relic? he starts again...
Propanda is an intelligent card also againt decks running 8 creatures because forces the opponent to tap his land... fof B2B.
I have a lock. you don't. a 1/4 creature is NOT a lock... it is good for 3/3 only.
Vs bant I don't need to counters his creatures. I allways let tarmo or rhox in. they are not a problem. I guess they are a problem for you. how are you gonna give an unswer to an exalted rhox 4/5 ? bolt? calcite dieing? explosives for 2?... that's why qasali is not a problem for me... I use counters only against him and balance... I guess you counter everything you see because eveithing is a problem for you...
You have 6 cards that are usefull only against 3/3 creatures... and you have notting to unswer a 5/6 tarmo, for example. (Please, don't say "double bolt!")
I play 4 b2b, 4 propaganda, 3/4 vedalken shackles. krosan it's not a problem as you can see, I can play more then one. redundancy! and impulse digs to find the piece I like at the moment. (impulse it's a mid-lgame card) how many krosan grip players side in? 12?
I know why you are so scared of krosan grip and qasali, you play just 3 b2b and 3 shackles...
MUC makes denial
- mana denial
- card denial
- tempo adv
thay key is using cards that actually give advantage. lightning bolt is not advantage. It'a 1X1. B2B + propaganda for example keep your opponent locked till he finds an unswer. So, I do 2 turns and he just watch while he looks for 2 land. That's advantage: 2 free turns!
... and I can get my lock even stronger in that time...
Against Tempo Thresh, Mongoose is the scary card, not Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf lies down to all the counter magic, Engineered Explosives and Vedalken Shackles. I'm not worried about having a Morphling playing wall duty for a 5/6 Tarmogoyf because, chances are, if Goyf hits 5/6, then my opponent has probably countered or destroyed your bombs (e.g. B2B - or in your case Propaganda - and Shackles to give him an artifact and enchantment to go along with sorcery, instant and creature) so against Tempo Thresh, your opponent is probably going to burn you out. Can Morphling win fast enough? Let's see... in order for Morphling to fly, untap, block that Goyf, and have protection, you need 9 mana. If you have 9 mana and you haven't won or put yourself in a winning position, you probably don't have an answer for those burn spells anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
What do you do the first two or three turns when the game is already in the Goblins player's favor? If he lands a turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 hits you for 8+? Are you really going to play a turn 3 Propaganda when you've taken 10, have no real board control and the Goblins player can poke you to death with 2/2's (or if he hits his fourth land, a 2/2 and a 3/2). The game isn't looking too good for you anymore. With Lightning Bolt, it gives me more of an answer to turn 1 Lackey than just Force of Will. Lightning Bolt also hits turn 1 Nacatl and turn 1 Steppe Lynx. The aggro decks that can swarm you also play burn. That gives them reach. If you have already taken 10+ damage by the time Propaganda comes online, then you are opening yourself up to losing to burn to the face. What do you do against random Affinity players when only one creature needs to swing through for the win? Propaganda is too slow against these decks. It's good if you can set it up, but you cannot rely on it to save you.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
Also, I would rather have Swords to Plowshares, but Lightning Bolt can kill all the annoying early creatures (sans Tarmogoyf which is my best win condition). By playing red, I get Firespout to assist me with the Lightning Bolt against Zoo, Goblins, Dredge, Affinity, and Merfolk.
Against Ichorid, I'm fighting an uphill battle. I would say you are as well. If you live to turn 3 for Propaganda, you'll probably win. I dare say, if I live to turn 5 or 6, I'll probably win. Do not underestimate the power of recurring EE or Powder Keg. Not to mention, the turtle blocks Ichorid all day long.
Again, Propaganda isn't the card winning you the game. It's Back to Basics. You're combo is ok, but it is slow. I've lost to Canadian Threshold with B2B + Propaganda after I took 11 from Mongoose before I got it online because he just waited for 3 Lightning Bolts and Forced them through. Don't forget, those tempo decks also run Daze, which gives them a free untap.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
These are bad assumptions. I haven't dealt with a Rhox War Monk or a Qasali Pridemage? With Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, Vedalken Shackles, Counterspell, Spell Snare, and Engineered Explosives all in the deck as multiples, if I had none of them, then I kept a pretty weak hand, don't you think? If the opponent had counters for my answers, then don't you think the opponent would have answers to your slow combo too? - especially since Bolt and Spell Snare come online 2 turns sooner than Propaganda OR Back to Basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
Aside from double bolt, I can Jace the Goyf back to the opponent's hand and counter it. Oh... you want a legit answer? Sorry, I was being a smart ass. How about I just steal it with Shackles and win the game, thanking the opponent for giving me such an excellent win condition? I also have Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg. With Academy Ruins, I can recur them (only if B2B isn't in play, of course... if I'm playing against Bant, which runs up to 6 basics, I probably won't have it in play 100% of the time). You must have missed those cards though.Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
You seem to have B2B and Propaganda a lot. I don't think the odds are in your favor for that happening. I'm hoping your cards aren't marked. Redundancy doesn't mean you're going to have them all the time. Propaganda without Back to Basics is weak. What do you do when you don't have B2B? Lose? What do you do against creatures when you have B2B and no Propaganda? Lose? By the way, didn't you just say you counter the Qasali Pridemage? Why are you so afraid of it? Is it because it destroys your only way to deal with the opponent's creatures? If you're only running 23 lands, I'd dare say Impulse is an early game card, as it is going to be an Islandcycler quite a bit (I know... hint: I've actually played the deck)Quote:
Originally Posted by serendib
Interesting you say Lightning Bolt is not advantage. Guess what - Counterspell is not an advantage. It's a 1x1. Force of Will is not an advantage. You spend 2 cards for 1. Why are those cards good? Because you are stopping things that are relevant. Trading cards 1-for-1 until you can get overwhelming card advantage in Fact or Fiction (or in my case Jace) and drop bomb after bomb is a good strategy. It worked for Randy Buehler. Here's a quote:
Trust me, those fundamentals haven't changed since 1999.Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Buehler
All wright. we have different ideas of what muc is. no meaning to go further in this private exchange.
so, only results can tell wich type of build is better. I'm playing b2b+propaganda since beguining of 2008 do you think it is too old? give a look at what happened in Orlando. the list is just as mine as you can see (but I like little more lands):
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-03-28&end_date=2010-03-28&event_type=STAL
(position # 13).. that's not a 30 person local turnament...
since 2008 the metagame changes see bant, zoo and ANT mostly... thresh is still the same, goblin & merfolk too, as for ichorid...
a little considerations:
to attack with flying morphling and block 5/6 tarmo I need 5 mana.. I see you know morphling, the reason why muc was born.
+1 to the Ex- Girlfriend Build.
20 island
3 factory
4 ancestral vision
4 spell snare
4 counterspell
4 powder keg
4 vendilion clique
4 vedalken shackles
4 cryptic command
3 fof
2 jace 2.0
4 force of will
(last minute i cut -1 guile -1 fof for jace due to the prevalence of control and zoo in the room, this was a mistake the main should be -1 cryptic +1 guile. Guile is boss)
I X-02ed the swiss. Lost in the first round of the top8, first match loss of the day. :( got a mox ruby for my trouble.
B2B is a fine sb card. but useless in more than 50% of matches. It has no effect on game state on the most critical turn in legacy. I would be interested in hearing what mr foster thinks of his card choices.
i was asked to post my usage of jace. Jace was usually 2UU suspend 6, win the game. Occasionally I needed to dig for answers and so I would brainstorm. Rarely if I needed answers was jace relevent to the situation. He got pitched to force of will, a lot.
Throughout the swiss, I used the +2 many many times. Jace's ultimate 12 (exagerated- actual is 8) times. I used brainstorm 6 times and used unsummon 4 times, 2 of those times were on my own Clique to "thoughtseize" my opponent.
I am liking the discussion that is happening, and Itrust it was the Bazaar of moxen you top 8'ed Rancorous Fool? do you mind my asking what your sb was for that tourney?
Is spell snare really worth 4 slots? It seems narrow and situational...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancorous Fool
In no particular order:Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmetaphor
Qasali Pridemage, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Counterbalance, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Lord of Atlantis, Goblin Piledriver, Standstill, Umezawa's Jitte, Dark Confidant
Need I say more?
Spell snare is worse than spell pierce.
But, it does what you need it to do, counterspell teeg and pridemage. I board in 4x spell pierce in > 50% of matchups. The reason snare is main is that it is not bad in any matchup, whereas pierce is horrendous in some matchups, like zoo or goblins. This creates an overall stronger maindeck than other options.
If you read the above list, there are only 4 creatures on it: LOA, goyf, pridemage, Bob. To that I would add teeg.
Spell pierce counters everything else on the list + brainstorm, top, mystical tutor, entomb, reanimate, swords, force, intuition, ad nauseum, dark ritual, shackles, moat, humility, jace, etc etc.
I top8ed the power9 tournament @ Jupiter Games in vestal. My only match loss in the tournament was in the top8. :(
SB:
4 spell pierce
2 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
2 b2b
2 pithing needle
1 hibernation
1 controll magic
1 submerge
Intended SB should be -1 submerge -1 controll magic + 2 hibernation. This did not come up, as I never played enchantress and i beat probant anyway. b2b, needle, and relic are all better versus survival anyway.
In the future I will play 2 hibernation, 1 energy field
Did you make any tournament reports?
What did you play against?
I do not have notes. But, i can give you a rough estimation.
Round 1(draw-FAIL) Monogreen chalice aggro. I cannot see the clock, my first warning of time was at 1 minute. I have the game locked up and he slow plays, i let him. This is clearly a huge play error- consider this a match thrown. I draw. Jace ultimate #1
Round 2 2-0 Pro-bant sans CB/top + wayfarer, spell pierce, wasteland and mongeese.
I keg mongeese and shackles goyf. Jace ultimate #2
Round 3 2-1 Monoblock control.
Game 1. Duress + hymn into an early liliana, i want to see his win-con.
Game 2. Pierce + needle + b2b is good. Jace ultimate #3
Game 3. I mull to 4. I suspend 2 visions, then resolve FOF, I win via jace ultimate #4
Round 4 2-0 tempo thresh
V clique blocks mongoose, factory blocks mongoose, jace ultimates #5
Keg gets a goose, shackles x2> goyf x2.
Round 5 2-1 Zoo -foggy these were long games
Game 1. Nacatl, Nacatl, Kirdape. I do not have keg, i decline to play spells.
Game 2. He has a lot of 2 drops, i have counterspells, spell snares and cliques. Clique gets there.
Game 3. I have counterspells, he has dudes. I submerge an early kird ape in resp to a fetch. Jace ultimate #6
Round 6 2-1 walker still
Game 1. I have more counterspells and card draw, win jace ultimate #7
game 2. I draw 19 lands, lose.
Game 3 I b2b and spell pierce a bunch of stuff. I do not think he resolved a spell other than swords to plowshares. I resolved 3x ancestral visions. Jace ultimate #8
Round 7. ANT-2-1 Blanking on name. nice guy, weird luck.
Game 1. I mull to 5 to find force. He disrupts and goes off. He fizzles.
Game 2. I keep pierce + force, he goes duress x2, go off.
Game 3. I keep pierce x2 + force. He goes off on turn 2. He fizzles.
... He went off early with >1 protection 3 times<=== Lucky. He fizzled, twice. ME<----Champion Lucksackery
Round 8. Draw in with zoo.
Thanks for the quick response.
Jason, why would you run red over white? White provides much better spot removal and also gives you the option to run Elspeth as a win-con.
Cool list, but what were your thought on Cryptic command and Factory? And why would you want Guile back in the deck? (I dont understand what that card does lol :eek:, explain plz?:D)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancorous Fool
For the rest, i like it :D!
~Maarten
EDIT: I found this: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6954919 Your final match in t8 against the survival deck. The StP topdeck made me laugh lol, and the Meddling mage on Visions game 1 was pretty painfull too :P! Anyway, you didn't draw much drawspells/fows in both games, how do you feel about the matchup overall? And what did you side in/out?
oh yea and btw, in( i believe) game 1 you have 2 islands, 1 factory and play a Clique in your own turn, why didnt you play it at the end of his? Or did i miss something there :P?
Well done rancorous_fool.
I like your deck. stong cards an big drawing.
I love 4X cards-decks...
I have a few questions for you if you don't mind:
- never happened to want to take an opponent's creature with shackles but you had mishra's on field so that you didn't have enought lands?
I ask that because once I played with white splash, I had the problem of the island count cause of the plain.
- wasn't the casting cost4 cards too much? I mean: "Have you ever needed to mulligan because you had too many high casting costs in your hands?"
now some comments:
- Jace 2.0 is wonderfull yes, but in your deck. It doesn't fit in all muc decks. It is perfect in your deck because of 4 vedalken shackles + 4 cryptic command + 3 mishra + 4 vendillion = 15 cards. For example in my version she wouldn't live because I don't have that many "Attack blockers or similar..." . Absolutely perfect in your deck.
- Watching the video of your match I realized that the style of playing is completely different from a B2B-propaganda muc. they are 2 different decks.
B2B is a strong card even against decks running half/duals if the deck runs propaganda too (half-non basic lands = aggro = good match) and very strong against aggro-controls. immagine what a propaganda + b2b on turn 5 vs survival bant could do... or thresh... But using Propaganda + b2b means also making the deck work around that "combo". For Example I am forced to use havy manipulating cards like impulse or fof to set the clock and using full set of prop & b2b to be sure that I can set multiple copies while the opponent is still blocked and forced to find lands. I end my games with 3/4 propagandas on board and 2/3 back to basics (if opponent doesn't run E.E.).
So, to conclude. I wouldn't mix or either think on the use or not of propaganda & B2B in your deck (also sideboard) because they don't fit in terms of "style of playing the deck" (I don't know the correct word) and also because they need a specific & different draw engine.
As for the ANT match up. I use 4Xchalice (@0 first, then @1 if needed) in the side. combined to b2b makes you win, I can garantee that. But I don't know if you want to spend all that slots in the side... otherwise extract! which is usefull also vs reanimator & enchantress to take out iona or a winning condition.
I think muc is too slow in winning to face ant with counters. they would find the way to start again while we try slowly to kill him... That's the only advice I feel to give you.
Well done again.
I will respond to more later in the day but @serendib. Take back to basics out of your deck. You will win more. I believe the reason I cliqued in my own EOT was to snake an Iona and prevent the turn 3 lock. He could have survivaled for a blank in his tun pitching iona, setting him up for loyal retainers. Yes both games I was mana flooded, however; game 2 there were so many misplays its not worth considering the game for testing purposes.
I want red because Firespout is really good; if I want to play Elspeth, I'll just play Landstill. Firespout is like Wrath but I don't want to have to hit WW to cast my cards - my list I only have to hit single R. White is better for spot removal (and better for mass removal), but Lightning Bolt kills almost all the important threatening creatures that StP can hit too - Lord of Atlantis, Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey, Disciple of the Vault, Qasali Pridemage, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl. Once I'm at turn 3 or 4, creatures become less of a threat due to Shackles, countermagic being online, and shroud turtle. I just don't want to take 8-10 damage in those first 3 turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
@Rancorous Fool:
I was underwhelmed when testing Guile. It just wasn't overly exciting whenever it hit play. I've always wanted Vendilion Clique but I can't justify it without a full set. It is very versatile and when I tested 2x in the deck, they allowed me to have some interesting plays. I just wanted to see them more but I could never fit a full 4x in, so I cut them altogether for consistency sake. I think I'm going to play around with my list some more and try Clique again.