[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

That's true. However, Chain of Vapor is, as I mentioned, a catch-all (although weak) answer to practically everything. Boarding in the wrong anti-hate cards in Game 2 would be much more common without Chain in the SB.

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The only thing Chain catches games two and three that Claim does not is a couple of Reanimator creatures and Yixlid Jailer. Jailer doesn't see nearly enough play to warrent the slots, and Firestorm is already a fine sideboard card. That leaves just a few reanimator creatures that Chain of Vapor handles better than Nature's Claim.

Some combination of Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Firespout, and maybe some other stuff can all take up sideboard slots. I'll probably be running:
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Firestorm
1 FKZ
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Ancestor's Chosen
That's still too many cards against artifacts; there just isn't enough room to board out six cards game two.

I don´t think that you need to board out 6 cards. If you expet the usual 3 relic 1 crypt package you just go for Grudges, but if you face black or an unknown deck you just go for Claim and change for g3 if needed. Looks fine to me :)

FKZ and Sage in the SB are horrible. They aren´t even good enough for our MD...I´d go for -1 Ray +4Leyline instead. THe mirror is coming up more often nowadays.

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Originally Posted by NQN

I don´t think that you need to board out 6 cards. If you expet the usual 3 relic 1 crypt package you just go for Grudges, but if you face black or an unknown deck you just go for Claim and change for g3 if needed. Looks fine to me :)

FKZ and Sage in the SB are horrible. They aren´t even good enough for our MD...I´d go for -1 Ray +4Leyline instead. THe mirror is coming up more often nowadays.

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Mind posting your whole LEDless list?
Would appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

That's true. However, Chain of Vapor is, as I mentioned, a catch-all (although weak) answer to practically everything. Boarding in the wrong anti-hate cards in Game 2 would be much more common without Chain in the SB.

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While CoV is a catch all, most of the time you can reasonably predict what your opponent is going to board in. I always assume that in any given matchup I will face 3 Relic/Crypt and 2 Traps in games 2 and 3, if the opponent is not playing any serious black. If black is a feature of their deck, I assume that Leyline will be brought in. In both of these scenarios, which are quite common and easily related to by probably most players here, Claim would be superior to Chain. This is especially true in the Leyline matchup, because most decks that use Leyline can recast it a turn or two after it is bounced.

In the Enchantress and Stax matchup, Claim is quite clearly superior to Chain. These decks use extremely annoying and powerful threats, and it is imperative that they be removed permanently, not temporarily. Claim allows you to do that, while Chain just sort of flounders around in that department. If we were to do a comprehensive examination of graveyard hatred in the sideboards (a project that is currently in the works for a pending article on another site), then we would find that the most common hate by leagues is a) Relic, b) Crypt, c) Trap, and d) Leyline. These cards are all better dealt with using Claim, not Chain. Yes, there are some hate cards that Chain might be better against. Jotun Grunt comes to mind, as does Withered Wretch and Jailer. But these cards are few and far between. Really, really few and far between. Claim is, statistically speaking, the better bet for games 2 and 3.

AngryTroll: The only creatures that should be in the board are as follows

1 Realm Razer: Without Razer, you essentially scoop to Lands and Chasm recursion.
1 Furystoke Giant: A single slot addition that gives you huge amounts of game against Enchantress and Stax. Instead of having to blow up a bunch of Elephant Grass and Moats to attack, all you need to do is Claim/Wispmare the Solitary Confinement to get some serious pinging salvos in.

Even Ancestor's Chosen, a relevant card in the ANT matchup and against aggro, is subpar in the board. Therapy and cards like Dispel (from Worldwake), Nix, FoW, and even Unmask (which admittedly is a subpar card in this deck, a point which I will happily argue) are equally effective in the ANT matchup. Firestorm and your innate speed are better tools in the aggro matchup.

-ktkenshinx-

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Originally Posted by EaD

Mind posting your whole LEDless list?
Would appreciate it.

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Nothing special:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [OV] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void (testslot since I´ve got the space)
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 3 Natures Claim

I´m still pondering wether to play this or LEDIchorid at Madrid :rolleyes:

Can't Lands.dec pop Barbarian Ring with Realm Razer's ETB ability on the stack? I guess its better than nothing though.

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

While CoV is a catch all, most of the time you can reasonably predict what your opponent is going to board in. I always assume that in any given matchup I will face 3 Relic/Crypt and 2 Traps in games 2 and 3, if the opponent is not playing any serious black. If black is a feature of their deck, I assume that Leyline will be brought in. In both of these scenarios, which are quite common and easily related to by probably most players here, Claim would be superior to Chain. This is especially true in the Leyline matchup, because most decks that use Leyline can recast it a turn or two after it is bounced.

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I do agree with all the points you've made. I just want to be prepared for everything. It's more of a personal quirk than a metagame decision. :D I guess I'll have to set it aside though, and go with the SB I posted a page back.

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Originally Posted by NQN

Nothing special:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [OV] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void (testslot since I´ve got the space)
SB: 1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
SB: 3 Natures Claim

I´m still pondering wether to play this or LEDIchorid at Madrid :rolleyes:

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Since I'm pretty nooby with this deck being a beginner, I gladly take advises and your lists as initial points. Thanks.
We cool.

PS: Take the LED- version - a gut feeling...

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

Can't Lands.dec pop Barbarian Ring with Realm Razer's ETB ability on the stack? I guess its better than nothing though.

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If they do that lands never return.

I think it's important to think about sideboard cards in the context of which they're going to see play. Technically Nature's Claim is better against Crypt/Relic/Leyline than Chain of Vapor, but I find that the decks that play Crypt and Relic don't play Leyline. So I run Ancient Grudge in my sideboard instead. The decks that run Leyline tend to be decks like Aggro Loam that also run Chalice, so I also run Serenity against them instead of Nature's Claim. Incidentally, consider Bringer of the White Dawn as a sideboard card against Enchantress How likely is it you can get Bringer to stick around 1 turn? Not likely, but worth considering.

I also specialize a bit more; I find the only decks that run Trap are decks that run Sensei's Divining Top to float it with. They run a mix of Trap, Crypt and Relic, so I run Null Rod.

Nature's Claim is very very interesting, no lie. But I think that just running generalized anti-hate cards makes poor use of your sideboard space.

What I think is very interesting about Nature's Claim is that it will almost always have targets game two, so siding in a few is not a bad plan. While being useful against Crypt and Relic (although not as good as Ancient Grudge), it also prevents you from being blown out by a Leyline you didn't see coming. Boarding in a mix of Claim and Ancient Grudge against a deck that runs black seems more versatile than just boarding in Grudges. I'm not sure if that makes it good enough to run, but it's certainly interesting.

But is it better than Ancient Grudge? Not really, Grudge doesn't even have to be in your hand to be effective. You HAVE to have this in your opening hand for it to be good, which means you have to run it as a 4-of. Now, I really like the card, I still prefer Chain of Vapor, but I like Nature's Claim. Especially since it seemilngly will take slots from Gridge and Wispmare, both of which I feel are superior. There is no argument from me that its good, but between: Grudge, Wispmare, Firestorm, and 3-4 other cards (depending on the numbers of of the previous mentioned cards) why would this be better than something like Chain of Vapor on that slot? It answers anything (even Jailer should someone be playing it) and keeps you prepared for anything, and after game 2, should you lose, you know which cards to board in if you would rather have something that isn't Chain.

It's better than Chain of Vapor because sometimes they recast the Chain of Vapor'ed card.

I think it has already been discussed, but lets go through it again. Chain of vapor doesn't answer any of the graveyard hate and since most people say running the zealot/sphinx is bad then I don't even see how chain is any good at all if you take the combo out of the deck. Which btw, how can taking the combo out of a combo deck not be bad? In your example you say chain answers Jailer (anything) explain how that is possible? Chain doesn't answer jailer, you bounce it and they play it again. Chain is in the sb to bounce leyline and anybody who puts chain in vs jailer is just wrong, there are better cards to answer leyline such as wispmare and now Charm. Chain is a sb card for vintage and LED dredge where they can win right there after the bounce, we have lands for a reason which is to play spells and we can actually have hard counters for hate.

In a tourney we only have 15 cards and why not have answers for the 99% of the graveyard hate such as artifacts and enchantments, instead of cards that might be good? Is the argument that you have to have it in your hand even a valid argument? Don't you have to have chain in your hand to use it? How is ancient grudge any good if you don't have it in your hand when they start with a relic in play. The whole point of putting in anti hate cards is so you have them to fight the hate.

Now we can have 4 cards in our sb that actually answer the most popular hate??? Now you can bring in 6-8 cards and be able to fight all the hate out there instead of playing the guessing game. I would even say that 99% of the hate are artifacts so you can still bring in your grudge/needles and then throw in some charms to have extra answers.

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

But is it better than Ancient Grudge? Not really, Grudge doesn't even have to be in your hand to be effective. You HAVE to have this in your opening hand for it to be good, which means you have to run it as a 4-of.

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This is a legitimate concern for any and all sideboard cards: can the card be cast from your graveyard? In the case of Claim, the answer is no. Then again, in the case of Chain, the answer is also no. So on the question of Chain vs. Claim, the "castable from graveyard" contest is a total wash. As this is indeed the question at hand, then we must move on to other qualifications, as this one is inconclusive.

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There is no argument from me that its good, but between: Grudge, Wispmare, Firestorm, and 3-4 other cards (depending on the numbers of of the previous mentioned cards) why would this be better than something like Chain of Vapor on that slot? It answers anything (even Jailer should someone be playing it) and keeps you prepared for anything, and after game 2, should you lose, you know which cards to board in if you would rather have something that isn't Chain.

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As said by me earlier, as well as Anusien and a few others, bounced threats are recastable. This is particularly problematic against Leyline. Decks that play Leyline tend to be able to also cast Leyline, in the event that it is bounced or not in your opening hand. Moreover, they tend to be able to recast it immediately. This makes Chain subpar against this enchantment. The same strikes naturally go against Chain when it comes to Crypt, Relic, Stax cards, and Enchantress cards; the opponent will just recast his cards the following turn. Claim permanently removes these threats. This is a huge advantage over Chain.
A number of players have mentioned that Chain deals with "Everything", and then includes cards like Jailer, Blazing Archon, and Jotun Grunt. Yes, these cards do exist in the Legacy metagame, but they are extremely rare. You are far, far more likely to encounter artifact and enchantment based hatred. Claim is superior to Chain when it comes to dealing with this overtly prevalent hatred.

As AngryTroll said, Claim is always relevant in games 2 and 3. Sure, Chain is always relevant as well, just by virtue of its card text. Claim, however, gains its relevance because it targets important threats, not just random cards. Chain might bounce a Goyf now and then, but that does not make it a relevant and powerful card. Claim specifically deals with the most likely threats, as well as any maindecked artifacts and enchantments that your opponent might be packing.

-ktkenshinx-

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

As AngryTroll said, Claim is always relevant in games 2 and 3. Sure, Chain is always relevant as well, just by virtue of its card text. Claim, however, gains its relevance because it targets important threats, not just random cards. Chain might bounce a Goyf now and then, but that does not make it a relevant and powerful card. Claim specifically deals with the most likely threats, as well as any maindecked artifacts and enchantments that your opponent might be packing.

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As with current sideboards you usually board in Chain as flexible answer to specific hate, Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation (if played) cannot deal with. You never board Chain to bounce stuff like Tarmogoyf.

Chain is said to be able to deal with almost everything because in most of the cases it is absolutely no problem to Flashback a Therapy for the bounced card. If you board Chains and have one in your opening hand you play more carefully with Therapy but sometimes it doesn't even matter as one turn is enough. Creatures like Jailer or Blazing Archon and Iona (B) from Reanimator demand for an answer no matter what it is, folding to these cards is not acceptable when it is easy to deal with them. Chains are the least boarded cards in my board but most of the times I boarded them they won the game by dealing with hoser creatures.

In what you're saying is that claim is better against enchantress/stax/leyline, but these match ups are SO rare and even decks packing leyline of the void seem to be rarer. In about 100 tournament matches, I've encounter 2-3 deck packing leyline and maybe 2 stax and 0 enchantress. Stax and enchantress rarely make top 8 of big tournament (I know, enchantress won a SCG event, but still). And you are still forgetting that stax runs 4x chalice and 4x trinisphere which will make you claim really hard to cast. And I'm also pretty sure that we are a bye for enchanter no matter if you run claim or not. You probally won't draw enough claim for all their stuff.

If you want hate agaisnt leyline, you'll be definitly better with either wishmare or ray of the relevations. If you really fear leyline go with these, otherwise, you should be fine with chain of vapor. It deals with random stuff that you can come across in tournament such as grunt, Jailer, magus of the moat/tarbernacle, blazing archon etc and it's still pretty decent agaisnt leyline. Yes, they will be able to recast it but it should give you plently of time to recover and get the board advantage, not to mention you can therapy what you bounced.
I don't understand why you say that they can recast crypt or relic because you shouldn't have sided in Chain or clasm if their only have is crypt or relic. Also, grudge is a LOT better in this situation.


I also don't understand why you would side in Claim game 2 except if you expect Leyline. It's SUBOPTIMAL to side in claim "just in case", you should side in Grudge game 2. Loosing game 2 to random hate is much better then screwing a part of your engine because you sided in too much card or a bad one in the situation because you don't have it in your hand(claim). You should accept to loose game 2 to random hate and be prepared for G3 with either chain or claim, and chain deals with much more stuff, not to mention that chain can be cast off a cephalid coliseum.
Also, WTF with the tarmogoyf argument... If chain just bounced a Tarmogoyf, what would have a Claim have done this situation ? Poop in your hand while you miserably loose to Tarmogoyf ?

TL;DR Running Claim in the slot of Chain means that you will most likely loose to random hate while chain will still be good versus leyline. Plus, I hardly doubt 1 or 2 claims will be enough versus enchantress , stax got Magus of the tabernacle that could be painfull and they have chalice and trinisphere anyway.

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

This is a legitimate concern for any and all sideboard cards: can the card be cast from your graveyard? In the case of Claim, the answer is no. Then again, in the case of Chain, the answer is also no. So on the question of Chain vs. Claim, the "castable from graveyard" contest is a total wash. As this is indeed the question at hand, then we must move on to other qualifications, as this one is inconclusive.

As said by me earlier, as well as Anusien and a few others, bounced threats are recastable. This is particularly problematic against Leyline. Decks that play Leyline tend to be able to also cast Leyline, in the event that it is bounced or not in your opening hand. Moreover, they tend to be able to recast it immediately. This makes Chain subpar against this enchantment. The same strikes naturally go against Chain when it comes to Crypt, Relic, Stax cards, and Enchantress cards; the opponent will just recast his cards the following turn. Claim permanently removes these threats. This is a huge advantage over Chain.
A number of players have mentioned that Chain deals with "Everything", and then includes cards like Jailer, Blazing Archon, and Jotun Grunt. Yes, these cards do exist in the Legacy metagame, but they are extremely rare. You are far, far more likely to encounter artifact and enchantment based hatred. Claim is superior to Chain when it comes to dealing with this overtly prevalent hatred.

As AngryTroll said, Claim is always relevant in games 2 and 3. Sure, Chain is always relevant as well, just by virtue of its card text. Claim, however, gains its relevance because it targets important threats, not just random cards. Chain might bounce a Goyf now and then, but that does not make it a relevant and powerful card. Claim specifically deals with the most likely threats, as well as any maindecked artifacts and enchantments that your opponent might be packing.

-ktkenshinx-

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... So what`s the proposed SB for a standard build (4 Pimp 4 Tribes 4 Ichorids) ?

4 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Relevation

Or are those two unnecessary with Nature's Claim and shoud go 4 Leylines?

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Originally Posted by johanessen

... So what`s the proposed SB for a standard build (4 Pimp 4 Tribes 4 Ichorids) ?

4 Unmask
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Relevation

Or are those two unnecessary with Nature's Claim and shoud go 4 Leylines?

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You should definitly go for 4 ancient Grudge. This card is so good at the moment. -2 Nature's claim
-2 Ray of relevation, -1 Nature's claim +3 Chain of vapor. You'll most likely want the versatility of Chain. You might want to keep Ray/Claim or add wishpmare if you never see random hate in your meta and there is A LOT of annoying enchantment.

And Probally -3 Firestorm, -1 Nature's Claim + 4 Leyline of the void. If there is a lot of graveyard based deck in your meta, you should go for this.


We might give you a better sideboard if you give us some ideas of what your meta looks like.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

As with current sideboards you usually board in Chain as flexible answer to specific hate, Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation (if played) cannot deal with. You never board Chain to bounce stuff like Tarmogoyf.

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First of all, I was never claiming that anyone in their right mind would ever board in a Chain to bounce Goyf. I was merely suggesting that, while Chain is supposedly very versatile, the vast majority of cards that it ends up bouncing are cards that would be better off dead and gone, courtesy of Ray/Grudge/Claim/etc. Just because Chain has the ability to target a range of threats, does not mean you would ever NEED to target a range of threats. Most dangerous cards are enchantments and artifacts, both of which Claim solves far better than does Chain.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

Chain is said to be able to deal with almost everything because in most of the cases it is absolutely no problem to Flashback a Therapy for the bounced card.

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Except now you have used 2 cards to remove 1 card. Therapy would likely have been better used to take out a future threat rather than the one already on the board in range of destruction spells. Moreover, this means that in order to use Chain to its fullest, you have to also have Therapy in hand (less likely) or in your yard. If it needs to be in your yard, then you are forced to Dredge it there, which might be difficult to accomplish in just one turn. Presumably, if an active Leyline/Crypt/Relic was preventing you from dredging earlier, you are going to be hard-pressed to make up that lost ground in just one turn. If you cannot find that Therapy, then you have just dealt with the threat for a single turn. This is the serious weakness of Chain.

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If you board Chains and have one in your opening hand you play more carefully with Therapy but sometimes it doesn't even matter as one turn is enough. Creatures like Jailer or Blazing Archon and Iona (B) from Reanimator demand for an answer no matter what it is, folding to these cards is not acceptable when it is easy to deal with them. Chains are the least boarded cards in my board but most of the times I boarded them they won the game by dealing with hoser creatures.

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Just because a card exists that CAN stop Ichorid, does not mean that this card is used. Morningtide wipes our graveyard away in one fell stroke, but no one, save for a few Aggro Loam players, uses this card. Do we need to prepare for threats that aren't used? Jailer, while powerful against us, is incredibly rare. The same goes for Blazing Archon. Iona naming B absolutely does not "demand" an answer, as we would still be fully capable of casting most spells and being as explosive as ever. If the Chain slots in the board were shifted to, say, Claim slots, while we might lose a matchup once in a blue moon to random, non-artifact/enchantment threats, we would almost assuredly make up the lost ground by having more consistent removal for the far more dangerous artifacts and enchantments.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

In what you're saying is that claim is better against enchantress/stax/leyline, but these match ups are SO rare and even decks packing leyline of the void seem to be rarer. In about 100 tournament matches, I've encounter 2-3 deck packing leyline and maybe 2 stax and 0 enchantress. Stax and enchantress rarely make top 8 of big tournament (I know, enchantress won a SCG event, but still). And you are still forgetting that stax runs 4x chalice and 4x trinisphere which will make you claim really hard to cast. And I'm also pretty sure that we are a bye for enchanter no matter if you run claim or not. You probally won't draw enough claim for all their stuff.

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Relic and Crypt are unquestionably the most used hate cards. Grudge, while incredibly useful against such threats, often require a little back up. The goal is not to just have one set of cards that counteract hatred. After all, our opponents rarely rely on just a set of Crypts or Relics. Hatred tends to be redundant and spread out over a wide range of cards from hard threats (Crypt) to soft threats (Propaganda). Nature's Claim gives you versatile countermeasures to these cards in games 2 and 3 because let's face it. It is not always clear which cards are going to be boarded in. The exact package of hatred your opponent is wielding is likely unknown to you. I would certainly bring in Grudge's to deal with artifacts (especially if there was a question that Chalice could be involved), but I would want some low-cost alternatives. Claim fits this bill.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

I also don't understand why you would side in Claim game 2 except if you expect Leyline. It's SUBOPTIMAL to side in claim "just in case", you should side in Grudge game 2. Loosing game 2 to random hate is much better then screwing a part of your engine because you sided in too much card or a bad one in the situation because you don't have it in your hand(claim). You should accept to loose game 2 to random hate and be prepared for G3 with either chain or claim, and chain deals with much more stuff, not to mention that chain can be cast off a cephalid coliseum.

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One big thing that Chain has going for it over Claim is that it is castable off of the Coliseum. Other than that, however, I must respectfully disagree with the position you outline in this quote. Game 2 is admittedly a notoriously rough run, because you just do not know what your opponent is going to throw at you. That said, your best, statistical bet is that your opponent will side in artifact and enchantment based hatred. Extirpate and Ravenous Trap might also come into the picture, but neither Chain nor Claim deals with them, so their relevance is minimal in regards to this argument. Chain tends to deal with a lot of soft threats (Magus of the Moat/Tabernacle, Grunt, Jailer, and so on), but really. How many of these threats are game enders? All of these cards, and their unlisted partners, are either a) not played, b) not game ending, or c) neither played NOR game ending. Sideboards do not have to deal with every imaginable threat that could possibly arise in a million sample games. They simply have to be optimized for the most probable threats. Claim accomplishes this. Chain is more versatile overall, but less focused in the micro-picture.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Also, WTF with the tarmogoyf argument... If chain just bounced a Tarmogoyf, what would have a Claim have done this situation ? Poop in your hand while you miserably loose to Tarmogoyf ?

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Again, the point of the Goyf example had absolutely nothing to do with the viability of bouncing Goyf as a winning strategy. Rather, it was to illustrate that Chain of Vapor's versatility is often irrelevant. If you need to bounce a Goyf in order to win/stabilize board position, then you are probably doomed anyway.

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TL;DR Running Claim in the slot of Chain means that you will most likely loose to random hate while chain will still be good versus leyline. Plus, I hardly doubt 1 or 2 claims will be enough versus enchantress , stax got Magus of the tabernacle that could be painfull and they have chalice and trinisphere anyway.

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1. Random hate is largely a myth. Hatred against Dredge is highly predictable, and consistently falls in the artifact/enchantment camp.
2. Just because cards exist that can hurt Dredge, does not mean they are used. As such, we need not over-dedicate our boards in the event of their usage.
3. The majority of situations in which Claim is unhelpful are either situations where Chain is similarly unhelpful (the one about Magus of the Tabernacle being backed up by Chalice and Trinisphere; nothing is going to help there), or ones that are highly unlikely (Reanimator --> turn 1 Archon, go).

I am absolutely not suggesting that Chain should be utterly removed from the sideboard, or that bounce/creature/permanent removal has no place in Ichorid because all threats are always, 100% of the time going to be artifacts and enchantments. That is absurd. There are, however, other ways to circumvent cards like Jailer (Firestorm), Archon (Furystoke Giant), Iona (swarms of zombies), and so on that do not rely on the subpar and inconsistent interaction of Chain and Therapy.

-ktkenshinx-