BantFTW: PM.
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BantFTW: PM.
I would like to discuss about CTop Firespout high curve against Goblins , Merfolks.I look at these lists and keep thinking that there are so many bad cards for these two matchups which are the bad MU.Jaces , Clique, Counterspell and Predict are too slow for this MU , CB is also half dead if there is a resolved vial.Also goblins and merfolks have a good mana base disrupt + tempo plan( 4 wastes + 2 port for goblins and 4 wastes , dazes and even spell pierce for merfolks) .Of course a resolved Firespout could be very nice but against these decks it could land too late or they can recover too fast(goblins case) so I think the 4 StP + 4 Goyf could not be enought to justify these high cc cards which are very good against Aggro-Control and Control.
What I see is that this list is just very good in CB Archtype mirror but did not solved the aggro MU problem.
Someone has the same opinion or a diferent one to discuss?
The lost I posted is good but like you say a turn one vial is really shit, you always need to get off it.
But it has enough removal to hold it up untill you've got a finisher..
I play 3x lavamancer side to help these matchups^^
If you can drop a lavamancer against gobblins and merfolks, you probably win if they can't kill it.
Merfolk can't do that and gobblins only with some cards^^
Otherwise, at those matchups, just kill their key-cards and you'll be much better.
Have you tried Explosives together with Firespout? They complement each other pretty good.
I have been running these in a Tezzeret-list, which did fairly well for me, mostly because I always had a bunch of sweepers against both Zoo and Merfolk. I also ran this configuration in Extended-Faeries/NLU, together with Path, and this absolutly kept Zoo in check.
Also, here is a Firespout-list that I piloted to Top8 in a 30ish-ppl-event some time ago.
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
3 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Island
SB:
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Bloodmoon
3 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
My losses were 2x dredge, never leave the house w/o less than 4 pieces of gravehate.... even if you run Trinket Mage. Lesson learned.
At this time I was in love with Trinkets, also, Jace 2.0 was not yet printed. I'd change a lot of stuff before picking this up again.
Like... add spotremoval, cut Trinkets and Sower from MD, cut the f***ing Riptide Lab, perhaps add a Jace or two, add land...
I tried the countertop list and it's not that good against aggro, against merfolk and zoo oké totally not bad lol^^
But against gobblins it's bad if you don't have turn 3 firespout because you just die^^
Against other decks the list is quite good.
The GP-list?Quote:
I tried the countertop list
I agree. It's a little deceptive in my opinion. The aggro matchup certainly becomes better with firespout, but at the same time this is not enough. (For reference, this is me testing versus zoo). The high cc cards are difficult to play quickly and many things are too slow versus these aggro decks, and stabilizing can become difficult. The problem is that there are still way more creatures than removal, in general. Countering things is nice, but unreliable, because if anything hits the board then things are very bad for you. I agree that the mirror is much better, as you have a lot more tools versus a slow deck. The difficult part then becomes balancing the aggro MU versus these mirror matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimi
@ BantFTW
So, how do you like the 'improved' Martell's list with 2x Predict instead of 1 Oblivion Ring/1 Counterspell? Also, how do you like the Lavamancers? I really want to play this deck, but it's hard when people change their mind constantly. For instance: UGW tempo (a variant between New Horizons and Bant Aggro) is a great deck, that has a good game against Merfolk. Still some players don't think it's the right time to play the deck in this meta. It's more tempo orientated compared to Countertop.
Now Countertop is a bit slower but far more controllish, which is why some think it's the way to go to fight aggro (Goblins, Merfolk Zoo), whike some think it's too slow. This makes it all very hard to make a decision on which deck is better to play at the moment. At least one of these blue decks has to be good...exalted triggers, noble hierarch, daze, wasteland, spell pierce, qasali, KotR vs counterbalance, jace 2.0, firespout, spell snare, karakas/clique, counterspell, Lavamancer, Pyroblast.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say "this meta."
Do you mean the SCG Open series? Do you mean the place where you play regulary?
There is no meta independent of a group of people who play.
With 'this meta' I mean the new meta after the banning of Mystical Tutor; which means there are more aggro-based strategies right now instead of combo/control in legacy. There's still some combo and control, but just not as dominant as aggro (Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo etc.). Which deck would you play in such a (diverse) meta? UGW Tempo or Countertop Martell? I'm just saying that both of these decks are totally different from each other, so there has to be one that's the better choice at the moment (UGW is clearly more tempo orientated and more agressive, while the other is far more controllish with Firespout, Jace, Clique/Karakas combo, SDT, Counterbalance, Predict, Counterspell, Pyroblast etc. Very difficult to choose between the two.
Today it isn't the time to play counterbalance, atleast not if you got an aggro meta^^
Today I've been to a tournament and I thought like, players will play alot of merfolk (I was right xD)
and also some cb^^
I took zoo bcs of that and I've got top 8^^
Today it's just not the right time, cb is somewat to slow against aggro ^^
EDIT:
Yesterday I've been testing and this is what I ended up (having a quite good matchup against zoo, merfolk and gobblins :D)
20 land
4 nobles
3 RWM
2 kitchen finks
1 trygon predator (or that merfolk that you can draw cards, your choice :)
2 clique
2 qasali pridemage
2 stoneforge mystic
2 elspeth
2 jace
2 jitte
4 top
4 stp
4 force
3 daze
4 brainstorm
41 (don't know what to quit, probably predator)
This is the best list we've came up with atm lol^^
It's quite fast and can do something against the decks, in the side you play counterbalance 4 and some sword of fire and ice and collar maybe to^^
Let me know what you think and test it :)
cya,
Again... it really depends. I could easily see a metagame, even post-banning of Mystical, that is still combo heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deady
Your deck selection and the 'best' deck really depend on the actual accumulation of cardboard where ever you play. Also the skill of the people piloting those decks.
I think that you could easily pick the 'wrong' deck that is 'objectively' the best. Whatever that means.
Looking at your list I can see you'll run into a lot of problems with your mana base. Why do you run Elspeth? Jace is just better in blue decks. Also running Elspeth next to Jace, Kitchen Finks (and Clique) seems off. One time you'll need double white, the other time double blue, the other time double green. FoW definately loses his power with that many green and white sources....your list looks like a Rock deck with some blue cards. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. I'll stick with my UGW Tempo deck, as it plays beautifully and doesn't lose to Merfolk and Zoo. Goblins always remains to be a bad matchup, but I can live with that as any deck has good and bad matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
Looking at the top 8 at GP Columbus, why do you think that Countertop is too slow? Martell placed 2nd.
I know but I tested and alot of times it's just to slow, probably because I'm not that skilled with counterbalance decks or something :??
@My list: manaproblems I've never had so^^
Elpseth is awesome dude, you just can race a progenitus if you want and it gives a beast flying what's quite good :O
Has anyone seen Menedian's list from GenCon? I believe there was Burning Wish, Show and Tell, CB, Top, Goyf, Brainstorm... I know he didn't top 8, but it's interesting to say the least.
Are there Top 8 decklists at least? I want to know if Tim Hunt played BUG CounterTop.Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
According to http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=453 Mennendian's list is approximatively (copy-paste from website):Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
4 burning wish
3 show and tell
4 emrakul
4 counterbalance
4 sensei
4 force of will
1(?) firespout
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 goyf
2 jace
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 volcanic
3 tropical
1 wooded foothills
4 island
1 forest
1 mountain
SB:
1 hull breach
1 show and tell
3 krosan grip
1 ?
1 pyroclasm
1 REB
1 pyroblast
2 blood moon
2 pithing needle
1 BEB
1 LLawan
P.S.: This thread is the shit ! I mean that in a bad way ;)
So I've been playing this deck for quite some time now... I think I've tested every played card for the deck :)
With this post I hope people understand my thinking and perhaps fill me in about the missing parts. I am no expert on this.
CB-Thopter; To much carddisadvantage with the tutors, to easy to hate.
NO-Bant; with the "package" the list becomes inconsistent. Progenitus is a joke on the draw and is sometimes not fast enough t3 on the play. Most decks that did fold to progentius have good answers in the sideboard now (wing shards, Llawan, edicts). Emrakul is the new fatty in town.
So I play Supreme Blue and I've been happy with it so far (19-2-1 in ~1 month).
From my experience I don't think the deck should be tempo-oriented at all. A deck with Jace tend to go long and playing Daze then really suck. The challenge for me have been to minimize the number of bad cards (removal and creatures) in the maindeck and make the deck as consistent as possible. I think this is often overlooked.
A lot of list plays ~10 creatures and some extra Path to Exiles for reasons that "they want a more forgiving deck", "they don't want to go to time each round" and "People play a lot of removal / creatures". Sorry, but I think the deck is not for you. You'll get the 3x Rhox war monk draw against combo and die. In a big tournament playing the most consistent controldeck is prio1 for me. That is why I like Ponder rather than more of the bad cards.
With the CA of Counterbalance and Jace all you need to do is trade answer for threat and win when the dust settles. Other decks can win either by overwhelming you with threaths or by drawing more cards. This is why you have a sideboard! And I hope to get some help balancing it... Right now Im pretty happy with it. I like how most cards work double-duty as hosers for different decks.
CREATURES (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (5)
2 Ponder
3 Firespout
INSTANTS (17)
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
LANDS (21)
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Forest
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
SIDEBOARD
2 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Blue Elemental Blast
As you see the deck is not that different from Tom Martells GP deck. For good reasons! (He came second =P)
For a while I thought RMW in main over the Vendilion Cliques were a must to help out against Merfolk and >oo. With some BeB and Kitchen finks in my sideboard I think It's ok. Allthough Im not totally sold on them... what other aggrohosers are there? Cards with multiple uses and low manacosts are hard to find. Spotremoval for cmc 1 is a must if you want to survive Goblin Lackey and Path to exile does just that really bad. The 4th Firespout could work but is to slow if you play around Spell Pierce.
Other conclusions for sideboard;
Sower of temptation is nice but Jace is just better. Other 4-drops (including Elspeth) doesn't do enough and are all worse than Jace anyway.
Vedalken Shackles is good, but to slow. The CA it generates are compensated with other cards instead.
Engineered Explosives. I really like this for it's versatility but as removal it's just to slower than firespout. Perhaps as a 1-of somewhere in the 75.
Submerge is great "removal" but doesn't kill merfolk, pass.
With the decline of Reanimator I think 2 graveyardhosers are enough. I bring relic against all graveyard decks but crypt only against dredge and reanimate. I like crypt over relic against those decks because you can find them with brainstorm, ponder and top and play them in the same turn. It's 2 mana or one full turn faster than relic when it counts.
Trygon Predator is to slow and the CA is only worth it against Enchantress. In the mirror it's nice, but so is everything but firespout and FoW.
the 1 needle might look random but it's worth the slot against vial/manlands/waste or survival/belcher. The card has high diminishing returns (because most of the time there is only one great target) so I play only 1 (but having good ways to find it!)
ReB is really sick against most decks... Im thinking about upping the count over Spell Pierce but having the opportunity to counter Artifacts and Discard should not be overlooked.
Please, pleeeeease rant and tear my list apart! I really like to discuss and improve my list! ;)
@ Mackan:
I agree that Supreme Blue is the way to go for Countertop; this doesn't need any discussion (it's still most consistent and it's the best choice when you expect more aggro than combo/control... Jace kicks ass in Supreme Blue as well! Perish is useless against us, as well as Deathmark and lots of other SB cards that are focused on mass (white/green) creature removal. This is definately an advantage over running Bant aggro or Countertop Progenitus, as its more difficult to hate and because it plays the control role like no other. Another advantage is that Supreme Blue runs red for Firespout, which is just a great card in the deck. REB is also solid.
Your list looks really solid and I definately agree with you on the 2-off Ponder (good, healthy choice). Ponder is never dead and can be crucial in the mid/late game to find the piece you were looking for. I don't know about Kitchen Finks, but it could be awesome against Zoo. Also Kira seems like an interesting choice (it's legendary, just like Clique). I agree with almost everything you stated, so I don't have any negative points to share here..it already looks pretty damn perfect for a Countertop deck.
I've been working on formulating rules and design constraints for a modern Counterbalance list. Let me post what I have and see what people think:
A) The deck should contain at minimum:
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
B) If you're short on win conditions, you should run the third Jace.
C) You should play either two or three colors. That way you can have a perfect manabase with tons of basics, like this:
N Islands
4 U/X Fetchland
1 X Basic
1 X Blue Dual
4 U/Y Fetchland
1 Y Basic
1 Y Blue Dual
0-2 Useful nonbasics that don't cast Counterbalance
D) Trying to run without Tarmogoyf to dodge Path to Exile is foolish. You should open yourself up to as many kinds of hate as possible to force people to diversify their sideboard hate. Against Zoo if they can cut Path to Exile, they get more room to bring in Grips and REB without diluting their maindeck.
E) Firespout is amazing against Goblins and Merfolk, but you need help if you just have Firespout against Zoo so you can beat their Knights and Goyfs.
F) You should have an answer to Vial somewhere in the maindeck.