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I highly recommend this plan. At minimum 2 against red-based aggro plans. Finks are also great against BUGstill in that they are difficult to get rid of, while providing a decent clock. These guys shine in many matchups where non-Exile removal is common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basaka
Do you guys think its a good idea to put one Phyrexian Metamorph in the SB with enlightened tutor package?
I have hard choice to make and cannot decide. I will try next tournament to run 3 SFM + 2 equips: batterskull and sword of ... I don't know which one here. And there is also a question if it is necessary to have one extra sword in sideboard. I'm hestitating between main : SoFaF, SoBaM or SoFaI. Any hints?
Damion, nice article! I didn't even know you wrote for them.
Your deck is definitely a bunch more control-slanted than regular builds. Speaking of Crucible+Exploration, have you thought about the inclusion of maindeck Crucible? I can get behind Mox Diamonds if we run enough lands, and if Crucible is involved, but otherwise, it's a crapshoot in my experience.
I do like the Thrun, and you don't screw around with ways to kill Jace. I agree in a slower Meta, Eternal Witness has suddenly becomes more viable than in the previous year. I'm running one in Aggro Loam and it's been fantastic, but I have yet to run one in this build.
Also, for Kitchen Finks, remember guys it also survives a Deed. That's pretty crucial. Gaining life isn't terrible, either. Also, there's a green Withered Wretch coming out in the Commander decks that deserves some thought.
For MetaMorph, it's not a terrible idea in having a way to kill Progenitus, especially if you have a slot. Or, it also gives you another beater. I believe there was a list on here that had one main, and that isn't a bad idea, as it just gets better once Tutors get boarded in.
@Stoneforge
I'm slowly coming over to the light side and liking Stoneforge, but that's also because I ground 3 hours of games against Edgar Flores' Thopter/Stoneforge Esper build. The deck is good, but is basically B/W aggro with Brainstorm. My friend and I are tweaking it, and we've also tweaked and found a nice list for not really a Rock deck, but more of a Maverick build.
I think Damion is right in that Tarmogoyf is a big dumb beater that stares at other Goyfs, but having less of them when your opponent has more is of slight concern. I'll be honest, Goyf doesn't do anything except be a 3/4 to a 5/6, on average. But most of the time, it's enough. I see where you're coming from, Damion, but I think decreasing threats is bad, but you're diversifying, so, in theory, I agree. My question is, is two Stoneforge worth it? Should it be 3?
-Matt
Would u take out dryad Arbor for the phyrexian metamorph?
I'm having something of the same problem. I was initially leaning towards SoFI main, but I think sdematt makes a good suggestion about SoFF MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by kubalonek
Against Merfolk and Goblins, Batterskull is usually better than SoFI already, so perhaps it would just be better to MD a pro-Green Sword in that slot. SoFI is definitely the best Sword in a vacuum, but the pro-Green might be more advantageous. I'm not even sure which MUs I'd ever want to board in SoFI since against aggro I'd rather just have a 2nd Batterskull (Goblins and NO? Perhaps Control?).
The main reason for no Thoughtseize is the life loss. The reason I don't MD Inquisition is because there seem to be very few decks that are hurt more by the removal of one targeted card than are hurt by losing two random or even chosen cards. NO is one deck that can shrug off loss of CA by NOing, which is part of why I'm MDing Metamorph.
In any event, all the MD discard I'm running is being used solely for CA purposes rather than removal. Swords, Vindicate, and Metamorph are all very versatile removal that will rarely topdeck poorly. Targeted removal is being reserved for combo MUs when I have to board out permanent-removal.
I think Sword of Fire and Ice main is the best option right now. Batterskull is very good versus Merfolk and Goblins, but I hate when my Germ token gets Stingscourger'd. It's obnoxious. I would rather have Infini-blocks on Piledriver and the ability to swing through and kill Merfolk Lords and drawing extra cards while I do it. The extra card draw that SoFI brings shouldn't be overlooked. You don't need to face red or blue decks for it to be good. Feast and Famine should be sideboard, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
When did we decide jitte wasn't worth the cut? As far as I'm concerned it is the most ridiculous equipment in creature based match ups.
Actually an active jitte is just super versatile and helps in most match-ups, helping either raise your life total away from the tendrils or burn player, picking off goblin welders or painters in the grindstone match-ups or just owning creature combat like it was its job.
Sword of fire and ice is probably better in an attrition match-up against jace where the card draw actually matters, but still jitte would get the job done by shortening the game with the pump ability.
Honestly, when people first starting running SFM in Junk, I was completely against it. Equipment was slow and clunky. Batterskull changed all that though. Batterskull is active the first turn it comes down and if they remove the creature its attached to, you simply bounce and replay it. Vigilance + Life Link wins any race easily. There's no need for you to waste your time killing their creatures with Jitte because there is no way that an aggro deck can profitably attack into a Batterskull. Batterskull does everything Jitte wants to do, but better.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Sorry for the miscommunication but the batterskull is always equipment number one, I am arguing that the 2nd equipment should be jitte and the 3rd spot belongs to the sword of choice.... My bad for not being clear, batterskull is what makes sfm playable in legacy.
Ah, I think then that people simply go for more flexibility. If Batterskull is always better, then why would I ever fetch a Jitte? Why not either have a second Batterskull or some other silver bullet in that slot?
Jitte is the cheapest without a mystic active, which matters quite alot, it also attaches to creatures in instances where a 4/4 just won't cut it( and you don't have 5). Jitte is better when you absolutely need to kill the confidant or welder and also rules creature combat. The other swords can be chumped for no trigger and no effect.
The protection is good but most removal should be aimed at the germ and then at creatures on the field( let alone the sfm).
You have to consider if you're playing a deck with removal. Jitte is also better to draw into, and easier to cast. Fetching Batterskull against your opponent's Swords is great for a free shuffle, but means your Batterskull sits for 3+ turns in hand. That's a little awkward.
I'd probably run Batterskull and Jitte if I ran two, just so I had something that was more hardcastable. But, I could also see myself swinging to the side of Sword, Batterskull, and Jitte. The problem is, Sword and Jitte are less clunky, but still clunky even with SFM. Batterskull is only good because of Living Weapon. if it didn't have it, it'd be useless (somewhat).
It's really a bit of a debate, but Drza is right: equipment used to be clunky, but Batterskull changed the game by way of Living Weapon. Any of the Swords were considered bulky. I'd rather hav the Jitte since it wasn't too bad before SFM, so I know it's a reasonable Topdeck and it's great in combat. Not everyone will be running Batterskull.
I love the fact we're also decent against Stoneforge based decks. Removal and discard? So fun taking their Batterskull with Thoughtseize :P
@ Dryad Arbor and Metamorph
They serve two totally different roles. One's a land, one isn't. Don't cut lands in this deck, please, but you may want to change it to a dual or basic land.
-Matt
Matt, Thank you.
I don't know if I'd play 3 in Rock. It's nice to see but, sometimes you need more than a 1/2 and you also run the risk of drawing the equipment. Without Card manipulation, Mystic's value drops each time you draw an equipment. Granted, It's still drawing a good card.
Awkwardly enough, adding mystics doesn't change her value. You can only run up to 4 of her and, if you play 4, with less than 4 equipment, the extra's are literally like playing squires. And if you draw a piece of equipment, that's another squire added to the deck. Granted: The more we play; the more tutors we have, but a tutor with no target is just a wasted spell.
As for Crucible. I'm still looking for a spot for it. I loved running it before and it provided a ton of game against a lot of decks via wastelock and recurring other utility lands (Maze, Kor Haven, Tabernacle, Karakas, Dryad Arbor...). It also made it easy to thin the deck allowing me to swing more often with Bob as I could almost guarantee that I was drawing business the next turn. Fitting it in becomes an issue because there are 3 different packages currently in my build - Knight, Mystic, Zenith - and there isn't much room to cut.
Cutting Goyf does seem odd but it's also not really that much of a cut. You'd Rather have a Knight since it's just better and you're still running a couple of GSZ's to fetch out the your own Goyf (effectivly running 4 without having to play 4). While you are still literally running 1-3, you can make it seem as though you are running 4. Which allows them to participate in the staring contest all the same... Wait! Why do we want that? I'd rather just have a way to cheat at the contest. Give me a Knight.
I also added Stronghold and E.Witness back into the deck. So, losing guys isn't the worst and I can always GSZ for witness to get back removal or a creature. It's a smaller creature but it can't really be threatened by the others as it will just recur something else again.
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On Metamorph as an E.Tutor target - Seems fine. It's a quick easy was to kill a Progen or Emrakul. I'm opting for Spore Frog + Sworded Creature for Progen and Karakas for Emrakul, but it seems better to count on a single card for both. I'd say it's worth trying.
I should mention that I really don't like the E.Tutor package in the board but this may swing me. Progen has been an issue for this deck since our answers were limited and usually killed our team as well. My biggest fear would be a counter on either but I've usually depleted my opponents counters by turn 2-3 via baiting so this shouldn't be an issue to land.
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@Jitte. When you look at Jitte are you trying to keep it in the main because it's name is Umezawa's Jitte or because it seems great as an equipment? I'll give it to Jitte, It's the strongest equipment they've every printed. It kills, pumps, and keeps you alive at a very minor cost. All of that aside, that's what we're supposed to be doing ourselves.
We run 6-12 maindeck targeted removal spells with 0-4 sweepers so the kill aspect isn't that popular. Our aggressive threats are bigger than I'd say 80% of legacy, so we don't need the pump (except in staring contests... WHY ARE WE STARING?!).
Life gain is going to be a little tricky to explain. Usually that ability is only used when Jitte is going to be destroyed. Decks like Zoo and burn exists (as do others with 'reach') and you always can't just drop a Batterskull against them (sometimes) but, if you're not able to drop the Skull, chances are they you're already in trouble.
While a naturally drawn Jitte is stronger than a Batterskull, you aren't going to be drawing either of them constantly. Especially since you're probably going to run 1 of either in the main (possibly a second of either in the board). If you do draw it naturally, "My Congratulations," probability happens. Chances are though that you're tutoring for it though.
If you are tutoring for it on turn 1 or 2 (diamond) then the Batterskull and the Jitte are gaining you life on the same turn respectively but, the Skull offers the chance to block something on their turn, before the Jitte goes active - as you can Vial down the skull a turn earlier than you can equip the jitte.
Both are equally fragile since your opponent will most likely kill the mystic than the germ. The Skull has a built in safety (rebuy) feature that also gives you a self contained recurring creature.
Skull also gains the life at damage, meaning that you are gaining it regardless of the destroy effect (K.Grip) form your opponent. Natural vigilance offers you the ability to double to your life-gain without Maze tricks. The +4/+4 allows you to use it against a deck like Ant extremely effectively (forcing an Igg loop over Ad Nauseam quickly) while still gaining the life.
Essentially, in our deck, because of the printing of Batterskull, Jitte's usefulness was severely hindered. All of it's abilities are amazing. I'm not going going to argue that but, We already did everything except gained life. Now, we do that with a recurring threat. Lastly, I've never wanted to Jitte a Bob and swing into any deck that I wanted Jitte's life against unless EVERY other option was exhausted. So that took out 4 creatures unless I was at risk of being FAR behind.
Instead of cutting it though, I'd suggest that it be moved to the board. The best way to fight The decks that you do want the life against, is to play additional(s) that do gain you life. Jitte is naturally tutorable for the SFM builds and as such, allows for that life to be gained quickly. In late(r) game, it can be tutored/played/equipped in the turn. That's something the Skull can't do - No, you're not going to get to 10 mana-sources without something VERY wrong having happened.
I'm sick of fighting stupid weenies. think we should put in Arena to deal with all those annoying stoneforges etc.
@damionblackgear
I am very glad to see someone else running the stronghold. It's proved to be the best land next to the utility of arbor.
What's your current 75 look like? Been toying around with adding gsz but I haven't been overly happy with it yet, especially when trying to squeeze in a stone forge package.
I've been running Batterskull in G/w Maverick with Gaea's Cradle, and it's been great, since I can tutor for Cradle with Knight and hardcast if need be. In that deck, it's very easy to hardcast.
What about 2 SFM 2 Equipment? Ups our game, shuffles, etc. Plus, usually most people play 4, and they may over-sideboard for a piece of the puzzle that isn't there as much as they'd think (similar to running 2 Daze, and thinking you're running 4). If we cut 1 Jitte and Qasali, we can run the 2 SFM and add in a Batterskull, or both Jittes for Skull and Sword, either way. That way, I don't have to cut Goyf, or I can cut a Goyf for a Crucible, or even Life from the Loam. Also, Deed isn't amazing at the moment in the main, so we could just run Crucible instead of Deed in the main if that floats your boat. Deed can always come out of the board, but being a singleton in the main at the moment leaves something to be desired.
Thoughts?
-Matt
I played This in Denver,
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Spore Frog
4 Dark Condifant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
2 Green Sun Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
60 Total
Sideboard
1 Orim's Chant
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Choke
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
15 Total
The board had some things that weren't supposed to be there as I realized at the tournament site that I put the 60 together but only 13 of the required 15.
The Chant was supposed to be a Gaddock Teeg and 1 Extraction was supposed to be a Deed. The Teeg I think would have made a difference.
I played against
UW (on camera so you can watch me kamikaze bob into an active factory and a couple other things. Since there's video I can tell you where and at what times if you really want me to critique my play)
Affinity (went in with a Game loss for bad decklist... turns out you can't just write the numbers and leave the names blank... Batterskull)
Dead Guy Ale (Took me about 2 days to remember. The affinity match was rough)
TES (Reminded that it was supposed to be a Teeg. I did Green sun for 2+ both games...)
Bant (Game 1 he seemed like the UW deck splashing green... learned otherwise game 2. Crucible+Waste locked games 3)
Dead Guy Ale (Against a buddy):
Merfolk... You guys aren't still having issues with this are you?
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Thing's I would most definitely change:
SoFF is out. There isn't anything I really felt like doing with it. SoLS would be better, especially with the Spore Frog.
The Deed's, like Matt said, doesn't pull it's weight anymore. I don't think it's needed. Targeted removal seems like it would be better in it's place. Possibly Oblivion Ring or Faith's Fetters if you want more life-gain.
Chant was supposed to be deed. I finished writing my deck-list as I was sitting for the player meeting... I had an extra forest.. ?!
While Crucible's are nice, I don't think they were needed for this list. Still going over options.
Library was nice... Not sure if it's supposed to be in there and I think the format would allow for another vindicate/pulse over a swords.
Let me be clear: I don't think Deed pulls it's weight in the main. I think the card is absolutely required to beat decks like Fish, Goblins, Affinity, Elves, and random decks like Stax. In the main, however, it is a questionable slot, to say the least. In the landstill matchup, it honestly doesn't help that much. I'd much rather it be Crucible, or even Pulse.
-Matt
Sorry Matt, I didn't mean to say that you were saying Deeds weren't needed, just that it wasn't preforming as it use to.
I AM suggesting that we drop them as they don't pull their weight. I did bring it in against Affinity but never drew it. I actually played about 10 rounds in a matter of minutes (including shuffling) and actually thinking of how much my opponent was plotting out his turn.