[Deck] Dredge

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So he can pop the Crypt before Faithless Looting/Careful Study resolves, or after, but not before the discard.

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That may be the case [...]

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No it IS the case. Dredge is all about triggers and knowing at which point your opponent is allowed to respond to your stuff and at which point he isn't.
Just imagine you have zero cards in hand, play a Brainstorm , draw 3 Bolts in the Brainstorm and then proceed to Bolt your opponent 3 times befor you place 2 cards back on top.
I don't suppose that your opponent would allow something like this so neither should you.

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Berg had no response at that point so I pushed on hoping to hit a Narcomoeba or something that might be useful.

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Just remember that the Narc trigger will go on the stack once the Spell / Coliseum / etc. is finished ( so after you discarded in case of Looting, etc.).
So hitting Narcs with your drawspell would be entirely pointless, as he could have easily activated the crypt with their trigger on the stack.

A common mistake that a lot of new dredge players tend to do is to place Narcs on the field as soon as they hit the graveyard, which can lead to a couple of problems:

a) You are gonna mess up your graveyard order if your opponent has a Stifle , etc. ( and since we once again play Ashen Ghoul in the board we can't ignore our graveyard order any longer).

b) Bear in mind that a lot of people aren't familiar with the deck, so they tend to get confused if you place them on the field right away

c) You are basicly screaming "hey I can't play my own deck, so I will be easy prey for you"

Wow, harsh. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Felidae

No it IS the case. Dredge is all about triggers and knowing at which point your opponent is allowed to respond to your stuff and at which point he isn't.
Just imagine you have zero cards in hand, play a Brainstorm , draw 3 Bolts in the Brainstorm and then proceed to Bolt your opponent 3 times befor you place 2 cards back on top.
I don't suppose that your opponent would allow something like this so neither should you...

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Understood. My point there was simply that with him having the Surgical in hand, I don't think I was coming out of that one either way. Even had we played the Crypt correctly (which I now know) I think I was still dead meat in the end. I wasn't trying to argue the case.

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Originally Posted by Felidae

...Just remember that the Narc trigger will go on the stack once the Spell / Coliseum / etc. is finished ( so after you discarded in case of Looting, etc.).
So hitting Narcs with your drawspell would be entirely pointless, as he could have easily activated the crypt with their trigger on the stack.

A common mistake that a lot of new dredge players tend to do is to place Narcs on the field as soon as they hit the graveyard, which can lead to a couple of problems:

a) You are gonna mess up your graveyard order if your opponent has a Stifle , etc. ( and since we once again play Ashen Ghoul in the board we can't ignore our graveyard order any longer).

b) Bear in mind that a lot of people aren't familiar with the deck, so they tend to get confused if you place them on the field right away

c) You are basicly screaming "hey I can't play my own deck, so I will be easy prey for you"

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Yup. I've made it a point to keep my yard order in tact down to correctly placing discarded cards from Studys and Lootings before the Study or Looting is placed in the yard and I make it a point to place the Moebas in the yard and raise them up slightly so they stick out (I place my yard along the bottom edge of my playmat, from left to right, so my Ichorid/Cabal Therapy graveyard icon can be seen easier. why doesn't Looting have that icon?) and I make sure to announce the Moeba trigger on the stack. I then place them in play from the yard once the trigger resolves.


I try to make sure I am adhearing to the proper play technique and order of things as much as I can. But in he case of this Crypt deal, I just wasn't as educated as I should have been. But I do pride myself on being a proper player when it comes to things like graveyard order, placing spells such as Looting/Study in the red zone until they have fully resolved, so on and so forth. A lot of guys play a Brainstorm or Ponder and just put it in the yard when they play it. "Technically" that is not correct. I try to make sure I place those spells "in play" until resolution. It also helps during counter wars so you can physically place cards partially on other cards that they are targeting, creating a visual "stack". It's just some of that "man, I really am geeky" stuff that I try to do. But it's the "technical" rules and it means something. At least it means something to me.

You surely have the right spirit;)

Don't worry, if you play this deck enough certain things become automatisms(like knowing what hate works how and so on). Keep going and this deck will reward you ;)

'ey guys,
After my performance on Sunday at SSG Las Vegas and several conversations with Joseph aka Que, I decided to put forward efforts to contribute to a forum that has benefited myself and others.
I saw this post from Felidae:

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Originally Posted by Felidae

Dredge is all about triggers and knowing at which point your opponent is allowed to respond to your stuff and at which point he isn't.

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I could not agree more. My top8 match with the Maverick player Brian Moss included a situation wherein he attempted to swords/path my Narcomoeba while it was on the stack. This was resolved properly, after the trigger resolved he incorrectly acted with priority in an attempt to swords/path my now in play Narcomoeba but I explained that he did not have priority and that rule allowed me to sacrifice it to flashback therapy targeting him, generating one zombie token and ALSO now requiring him to swords/path my token since he basically revealed a relevant card in his hand. Overall a slightly more beneficial outcome for me. Knowledge of rules like these don not only apply to playing Dredge. I think this is the kind of knowledge is part of the separation between mediocre players and players who can do consistently well.
I think that the impression that Dredge is mostly played as a budget deck by those new to the format comes from new-to-legacy players lack of rules and deck knowledge.


The issue I'd like to raise is the split from the combo style deck that dredge has been, into an aggro deck that has become the "Quadlaser" list.
The first post by Hollywood and even a more recent post by Anusien:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

The #1 thing to know: Dredge is a combo deck.

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I don't see the appeal in turning a combo deck that happens to win through creature damage into an aggro deck. Both are vulnerable to GY hate. I am not of the opinion that you have to sacrifice consistency for speed. A couple of questions come to mind;
1. Yes, you still have Cabal Therapy, but you're still slower against other combo decks, and you seem to hurt your possible chances against Maverick with their board affecting two-drops(Teeg and Thalia) and the danger of Knight of the Reliquary fetching Bajuka Bog at will?
2. I understand that one percieved benefit of Quadlaser is that once you start dredging you flip all business cards, but doesn't removing the chance for a turn 2 or even 3 kill by not having Flame-kin Zealot/Dread Return seem sub-optimal?

The Quadlaser list is sub-optimal. I'd like to say that with all the possible respect to those who have put in their time to help develop it. But if the idea is to be a fast aggro deck that isn't vulnerable to counters, then why not run goblins? With vial and cavern of souls the deck is just what you're looking for without the danger of GY hate. It even has mana denial in place of discard.
One of the biggest concerns I have with the Quadlaser list is the amount of land that are included. TWELVE!? :eek: That's dangerously low, and yes I am clearly aware of the interaction between Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless looting, it's what convinced me to finally start playing LEDs, twelve is just too few. If consistency is an objective of the Quadlaser lists, then the low land count does not, in my opinion, make the deck more consistent.
Another concern is that Ichorids basically require one to play Putrid Imps. I know that some people are very much in favor of its inclusion, but how many outlets does the deck need? Some math may need to be done, but the deck has 12 in Careful study, Faithless Looting, and LED. Discard outlets 13-16 seem unnecessary.
Some of these conclusions, through years with the deck(since it was viable in extended) led to the build I ran this past Sunday;
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48044

I'm very happy with the list. Even dropping my second round to Joseph's Quadlaser list as my only loss outside of the top8, I think it is almost exactly where I want it. That includes the board. I've seen several posts asking how it works, and for the most part they have been readily answered by the regular members patrolling this forum. However, there are a few things I'd like to add;
- Since the maindeck eschews Ichorids for Bloodghasts and putrid imps for additional land, the deck can more easily switch into a lesser version of Painted Stone and maintain competitive. The sheer shock of the deck morphing to a possible turn 2 kill without using the graveyard is quite an advantage. If you assume that they make their deck worse by bringing in cards that don't actually affect you, then the less optimal version of a post-board Painted Stone deck can be quite appealing.
- The board also has another advantage. How often have you been heading into game two after easily handling an opponent, and had to play the "what's he gonna bring in?" game? Is he going to bring in Leyline? Cage? Crypt? Faerie Macabre? Surgical extraction? The possible options can be draining after several rounds, not to mention shifts in metagames leading to further variance in anti-GY cards. The simplicity of switching to the Painted Stone board means you don't even have to worry about it. You only need to know witch strategy is more likely to succeed. Sometimes only the unmasks come in in place of Breakthroughs. When boarding into the Painted Stone plan, I've been taking out 4 Grave-trolls, 3 Breakthrough, 4 Narcomoebas, the Sun Titan, the Flame-Kin Zealot, and 2 Bridge From Below. The Dread Returns should stay in the event that a Painter's servant finds it's way to the GY. This is a dangerous situation and should be avoided. You want to keep as many black cards in as possible to enable turn one Unmask.
- Flame-Kin Zealot, Sun Titan, and the two Dread Returns have so many interactions. It's really fun to shred a hand with multiple therapies by sacing Bloodghasts, Dread Returning a Sun Titan and getting as LED to flashback F. Looting or a land and getting Bloodghasts back to sac to the second Dread Return for Flame-Kin Zealot.


I look forward to constructive debate. -Jason

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Originally Posted by JBulko

I look forward to constructive debate. -Jason

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I try to adress your points one by one.
First of all you don't turn it into an aggro deck. Dredge has always been Aggrocombo and still is, even the lists without DR. Mind you,a lot of people even cut the Dread Return when Looting wasn't printed.

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Yes, you still have Cabal Therapy, but you're still slower against other combo decks, and you seem to hurt your possible chances against Maverick with their board affecting two-drops(Teeg and Thalia) and the danger of Knight of the Reliquary fetching Bajuka Bog at will?

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You still have Cabal Therapy and Ichorids. Both as a 4-off. I strongly consider Therapy the best card in the 75, and flipping 3 of them constantly requires more slots than the 3 a lot of the American players have.The board affecting two-drops have not been an issue for me as of yet, don't know what the others think. Knight is irrelevant. Knight becomes active turn 3(earliest), turn 4 most of the times.By turn 4 Bojuka Bog shoudl not be enough to stop you. Your point still stands though, missing the ability to win on the spot does sometimes hurt.

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I understand that one percieved benefit of Quadlaser is that once you start dredging you flip all business cards, but doesn't removing the chance for a turn 2 or even 3 kill by not having Flame-kin Zealot/Dread Return seem sub-optimal?

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You didn't remove any of those. Turn 3 is pretty realistic, turn 2 is possible.

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The Quadlaser list is sub-optimal. I'd like to say that with all the possible respect to those who have put in their time to help develop it. But if the idea is to be a fast aggro deck that isn't vulnerable to counters, then why not run goblins? With vial and cavern of souls the deck is just what you're looking for without the danger of GY hate. It even has mana denial in place of discard.

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This is a constructive debate for you? Oo
Still: this "suboptimal" list is the highest placing Dredge list of a whole fricking continent.
It is still combo-ish, by the way, no need to compare it to goblins.

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One of the biggest concerns I have with the Quadlaser list is the amount of land that are included. TWELVE!?

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I don't get it. You don't need more than 1 land in your starting hand game 1(and still you often happen to have 2-3 lands because of all the cantrips). You run 15 lands games 2-3. The idea of the deck is to dredge consistently.More lands hurt this premise.

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Another concern is that Ichorids basically require one to play Putrid Imps. I know that some people are very much in favor of its inclusion, but how many outlets does the deck need? Some math may need to be done, but the deck has 12 in Careful study, Faithless Looting, and LED. Discard outlets 13-16 seem unnecessary.

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LED shouldn't be a discard outlet when you can help it.Also it's about consistency. We basicly want to have as much discard outlets as possible so we can use the Lootings and Studies to actually dredge, not just dumb shit in the yard. But you are right about the Ichorids. They are the main reason we play PImps, but also: PImps save board space. If you cut them you are pretty much bound to play at least 3 Grudges imo. PImp beats relic and crypt on his own(and does decent damage)

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Some of these conclusions, through years with the deck(since it was viable in extended) led to the build I ran this past Sunday;
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48044

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You complain about speed and cards like Ichorid, and yet run a slow combo list? Bloodghast is a slow card. Undiscovered Paradise is a slow card. Dakmor Salvage isn't even a card.
Seriously: Why play Bloodghast. This guy attacks for 2 only, basicly never has haste when it is relevant, doesn't die on its own, can't even block and you need to play shitty lands to support him. What's even worse for me is that you only run 10(!!!) dredgers. Has this been an issue for you?Also Dread Returns. Ofc in a list like this, you have to run Dread Returns, but I didn't address this point so far so I'll take this chance: We cut DR from our lists because we all felt it doesn't do enough. You are basicly never required to DR, most of the times A natural Ichorid attack or a Therapy wins you the game anyway. Considering what bad of a Topdeck this card is and how dead it is in your first few dredges if you are unlucky(the cards needs a lot of setup),we decided to cut it a long while ago and I never missed it. I also hold a personal grudge against this card because everytime I run a copy and have a now-or-lose-dredge, I flip DR and die. Cost me 3 matches at GP Amsterdam-.-
I can't comment on the board though. I think it is shit, but then again I consider the Feldman style of Dredge shit and this is basicly another variant. Does that really work out?Oo
The main issue I have is: you said you run additional lands, but you basicly don't. Both Salvage and Paradise perform very awkward in combo decks like Painter(I really tested your board, no shit).
That's basicly it. I don't really know why I typed all this stuff, considering how rude I find your opening and how bad I am at keeping conversations constructive when rudeness happens but maybe somebody can work out the sense in what I wrote.

Wow. This thread is burning in rage :D

@JBulko I don't really know how you can actually dredge game 1 with 10 dregers (Dakmor Salvage dredges for 2, I won't even count it). Post-board Painter-Stone combo won't bring anything valuable for you against the toptier decks.

Examples: RUG Delver won't side out their Lightning Bolts nor permission (maybe a couple Dazes). So, resolving Grindstone and not having your Servant killed is as hard as fighting through graveyard-hate.

UW Stoneblade and UW Miracles won't side out Swords to Plowshares against you. They're indeed, the best removal for Ichorids/Ashen Ghouls/Whatever Dredge plays. And they still have plenty permission (Spell Pierce is really popular nowdays, yaknow).

Sneak Attack won't also board out permission, as they don't have any sort of removal. They OFTEN Misdirection/Force of Will our Cabal Therapies.

GW Maverick won't also board out Swords to Plowshares. And if you can't combo fast enough with Grindstone, they might even play Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting themselves.

Another point: Griselbrand + FKZ, or even Flayer of the Hatebound lists are good variants, as well. If you're lucky enough, they'll perform a lot better than Quadlaser. I'd play Flayer list anyday, if I could get turn 1~2 kills every game. The main problem is that most players aren't lucky, and they have to play the most consistent list, in terms of dredging and grinding.

I don't think this thread is burning with rage. Apart from like 1 sentence each I think both Jason and I kept it pretty constructive(for a Legacy forum)

First, I found it odd that you took my post to be rude. It is merely a statement of the experience I have gained with the deck and its many incarnations. Perhaps you felt that way because I do not agree with you on the Quadlaser strategy. I am not an opponent. I can come off as confrontational, I assume you the truth is my goal, not proving I have the best idea. If Quadlaser ends up as the best way to play dredge, then everyone in the forum gains, including myself. As for now, I will argue for the FKZ list. I encourage your criticism.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

You still have Cabal Therapy and Ichorids. Both as a 4-off. I strongly consider Therapy the best card in the 75,

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I agree with you here, the players that run 3 therapies strike me as not knowing the deck well enough. I'd go as far as calling them idiots. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

You didn't remove any of those. Turn 3 is pretty realistic, turn 2 is possible.

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T2...? in your list you would have to go nuts on turn one with breakthrough, LED, and Faithless looting. The same cards for me are more likely to result in a turn one kill.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

It is still combo-ish, by the way, no need to compare it to goblins.

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But it is a fair comparison, the Quadlaser list is only combo in the sense that you need some combination of cards to get started. The same way a Goblins player would like to see Aether Vial and lackey, you want outlet + dredger.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I don't get it. You don't need more than 1 land in your starting hand game 1(and still you often happen to have 2-3 lands because of all the cantrips). You run 15 lands games 2-3. The idea of the deck is to dredge consistently.More lands hurt this premise.

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I run 16 lands, pre and post board. I agree that the idea of the deck is to dredge consistently, I just prefer to have an average kill sooner on average than is possible with Quadlaser. Lands do not make the deck less dredge consistent, less dredgers does that. I run 12 dredgers, not 10. While Dakmor Salvage is not an optimal dredger, it does still dredge 2. The resource of a dredgeable land can be invaluable in drawn-out games, where merely dredging the Salvage can trigger several Bloodghasts to enter play and become fodder for therapy and D. Return.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

LED shouldn't be a discard outlet when you can help it.Also it's about consistency.

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It IS about consisteny, which is why LED IS a discard outlet, it may be a situation where the use of LED is sub par, but the whole idea is to get dredgers into the yard. LED can fulfill that role.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

We basicly want to have as much discard outlets as possible so we can use
the Lootings and Studies to actually dredge, not just dumb shit in the yard.

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And you expect to do this consistenly and in a timely manner with 12 lands and LED? It just doesn't add up to me. That is the kind of situation in which more lands would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

But you are right about the Ichorids. They are the main reason we play PImps, but also: PImps save board space. If you cut them you are pretty much bound to play at least 3 Grudges imo. PImp beats relic and crypt on his own(and does decent damage)

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Imps are not necessary. Neither are Ichorids. They slow you down and have only a limited amount of recursion built into the deck, and the amount of recursion is limited by the random assortment of cards you've dredged over at any given point in the game. They are EXTREMELY vulnerable to crypt and other GY hate. On top of all that I'd say the deck depends on them way too much. If your Ichorids get extracted, how many tuns does that slow you down? I think if you give it legitimate thought, you'll find that its as bad, if not worse than having Bridges extracted in the Quadlaser list.
On top of that, I don't have to worry about grudges. I doubt there are many decks, aside from belcher, that are faster than my version of Dredge. Any deck that does bring in hate is making themselves worse at what they do game one. This board is designed to take advantage of that. If, for whatever reason, you should lose the boarded game, you are on the play for game 3 and the opponent now has to figure out whet the hell to board in. Either way you are in an advantageous position.
Bottom line is this, I don't CARE what they have. It is a very freeing feeling.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

You complain about speed and cards like Ichorid, and yet run a slow combo list? Bloodghast is a slow card. Undiscovered Paradise is a slow card. Dakmor Salvage isn't even a card.
Seriously: Why play Bloodghast. This guy attacks for 2 only, basicly never has haste when it is relevant, doesn't die on its own, can't even block and you need to play shitty lands to support him. What's even worse for me is that you only run 10(!!!) dredgers. Has this been an issue for you?

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Ichorid can NEVER come into play the turn it was Dredged. Bloodghast can. I think you're asking Bloodghast to do a different kind of work for you. It's not common that I attack with them, though it does happen. They are mostly Narcomoeba #5-7. If you think of them in this way I think you'll start to see their value. While narcomoeba merely needs to be dredged, over it is superior, Bloodghast also needs to be dredged over unlike Narcomoeba it can also be discarded to Looting other outlets and still function. Bloodghast also requires another thing to happen, a land needs to enter play. This is more likely to happen in A) a higher land count build and B) via Dakmor Salvage. it pulls double duty as land and as a dredger. While it's never my dream play to have to play it as my first land drop, it has been INVALUABLE. The card wins games that would otherwise not be winable.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Also Dread Returns. Ofc in a list like this, you have to run Dread Returns, but I didn't address this point so far so I'll take this chance: We cut DR from our lists because we all felt it doesn't do enough. You are basicly never required to DR, most of the times A natural Ichorid attack or a Therapy wins you the game anyway.

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Of course I run Dread Return. It's one of the STRONGEST cards in the deck! What more could you ask a card to do? In my version the target either generates more advantage(Sun Titan), kills them(FKZ), or worst case... ONLY generates several 2/2 zombie tokens and puts a large regenerating Grave-troll(another situation where an available land would be good) or Deathtouch flyer(eats Emrakul/Grisselbrand) into play. Bloodghasts can aslo help 'setup' a Dread return, man those guys do work :tongue: . How is Dread Return a bad card again?

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Considering what bad of a Topdeck this card is and how dead it is in your first few dredges if you are unlucky(the cards needs a lot of setup),we decided to cut it a long while ago and I never missed it. I also hold a personal grudge against this card because everytime I run a copy and have a now-or-lose-dredge, I flip DR and die. Cost me 3 matches at GP Amsterdam-.-

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Ah! so its bad to DRAW Dread return. I see. In that case 80% of the deck is bad. You should only get one true draw. After that you're dredging. If you're drawing so often, maybe you're not keeping/mulling hands effectively. The cards that you dredge, in ANY turn are random so long as your deck is effectively randomized. So your anecdotal story about the GP doesn't get us any closer to actually being able to dismiss the card as unplayable. You only have a chance to dredge over business cards, granted, the Quadlaser list has a higher PROBABILITY of dredging over these cards, but I think I can summarize my argument on this aspect into this: The increased probability of hitting business cards is not THAT much better than having the ability to kill sooner.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I can't comment on the board though. I think it is shit, but then again I consider the Feldman style of Dredge shit and this is basicly another variant. Does that really work out?Oo

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It seems premature to instantly dismiss a viable strategy. Does it work? Well, I think it does. In the two tournaments I have run it, both SSG tournaments, I have placed 9th in Phoenix(on EXTREMELY close breakers) and T8 in Las Vegas. Here is a comparison of both decks:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...76&deck2=48044
I changed one card. The third Undiscovered Paradise became the fourth Gemstone Mine.
I'll be honest, I don't know what you mean by Feldman style deck. I built this little by little, always feeling that I was a little off the map with my version of the deck, I assume that Feldman style runs more lands? I do run more lands, but I would prefer not to be associated with Richard Feldman. I ended up with this style list because I LOVE the Bloodghasts, the extra lands came in after their inclusion, and the 16th land came in after the idea of a transformational board came up.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

The main issue I have is: you said you run additional lands, but you basicaly don't. Both Salvage and Paradise perform very awkward in combo decks like Painter(I really tested your board, no shit).

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Additional lands have made my deck more consistent, and more resilient to wastelands. They have also allowed me to catch opponents off-guard by switching into a transformational board. You say that more lands make dredge less consistent. I disagree, and I have had results in the past 3 months that indicate I may be on to something.

Looking forward to more discussion - Jason

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Wow. This thread is burning in rage :D

@JBulko I don't really know how you can actually dredge game 1 with 10 dregers (Dakmor Salvage dredges for 2, I won't even count it). Post-board Painter-Stone combo won't bring anything valuable for you against the toptier decks.

Examples: RUG Delver won't side out their Lightning Bolts nor permission (maybe a couple Dazes). So, resolving Grindstone and not having your Servant killed is as hard as fighting through graveyard-hate.

UW Stoneblade and UW Miracles won't side out Swords to Plowshares against you. They're indeed, the best removal for Ichorids/Ashen Ghouls/Whatever Dredge plays. And they still have plenty permission (Spell Pierce is really popular nowdays, yaknow).

Sneak Attack won't also board out permission, as they don't have any sort of removal. They OFTEN Misdirection/Force of Will our Cabal Therapies.

GW Maverick won't also board out Swords to Plowshares. And if you can't combo fast enough with Grindstone, they might even play Wheel of Sun and Moon targeting themselves.

Another point: Griselbrand + FKZ, or even Flayer of the Hatebound lists are good variants, as well. If you're lucky enough, they'll perform a lot better than Quadlaser. I'd play Flayer list anyday, if I could get turn 1~2 kills every game. The main problem is that most players aren't lucky, and they have to play the most consistent list, in terms of dredging and grinding.

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I get along fine with the dredgers I have, I just have to realize that I'm going to need an LED or looting to get started. It's fine with me, I don't need to be greedy.

Against several of these decks I wouldn't go with the board plan. Against others the 7 discard spells tend to do enough work. I landed the board combo against an Esper control deck in round 6 on turn 3. I had unmask and therapy. he top decked the Dust Bowl to keep me off 3 lands, but i had the Enlightened Tutor in hand, just cast it during upkeep and get an LED, win. it's just a matter of how comfortable you are with the deck.

also if you are only running 12 lands, isn't Coliseum less likely to be activated? Would it not be more consistent to just run Gemstone/City of Brass/ Tarnished Citadel?

I just meant the bold statement that xy is suboptimal. Nevermind.
BTW, if any of the following comes off strange, I feel very dizzy bc it is fricking 39°C here...

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T2...? in your list you would have to go nuts on turn one with breakthrough, LED, and Faithless looting. The same cards for me are more likely to result in a turn one kill.

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Yeah but is that necesasary?No. Opponent has no hand cards and no outs,it is basicly a t1 kill for non DR lists, too.

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But it is a fair comparison, the Quadlaser list is only combo in the sense that you need some combination of cards to get started.

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No. Dredge isn't combo because of DR, it is combo because of the ability to interact with and abuse Bridge from Below. DR is ONE way of doing that.

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I run 12 dredgers, not 10. While Dakmor Salvage is not an optimal dredger, it does still dredge 2. The resource of a dredgeable land can be invaluable in drawn-out games, where merely dredging the Salvage can trigger several Bloodghasts to enter play and become fodder for therapy and D. Return.

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I disagree. Dakmor Salvage isn't a magic card. This card is only needed with Bloodghasts, which in return make them even worse imo. Cmes into play tapped, doesn't tap for blue or red= meh

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It IS about consisteny, which is why LED IS a discard outlet, it may be a situation where the use of LED is sub par, but the whole idea is to get dredgers into the yard. LED can fulfill that role.

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You quoted me out of context there(I wrote it kinda strange, too) What I meant is, it is about consistent Dredging. PImp solves this best, also it is better tousese draw spells as draw spells and not discard outlets

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And you expect to do this consistenly and in a timely manner with 12 lands and LED? It just doesn't add up to me. That is the kind of situation in which more lands would be helpful.

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Why would it be helpful? You need 1 land and possibly cannot play more than 2 lands because the game ended. The less lands you Dredge, the better the deck will perform.(all referring to game 1).

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If your Ichorids get extracted, how many tuns does that slow you down? I think if you give it legitimate thought, you'll find that its as bad, if not worse than having Bridges extracted in the Quadlaser list.

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Between 0 and 20 turns. Thing is, Ashen Ghould and Moebas make zombies, too. Ichorid is fine to be extracted. It is a faster beater than Bloodghast and requires less setup.Bridge is by far worse.

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I don't CARE what they have. It is a very freeing feeling.

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Yeah I forgot the morphboard thingy. To be honest, that's the most appealing part of your list to me(bc it isn't relying on Bloodghast) I just found that it is way too slow. Exspecially with your choice of lands.

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Ichorid can NEVER come into play the turn it was Dredged. Bloodghast can. I think you're asking Bloodghast to do a different kind of work for you. It's not common that I attack with them, though it does happen. They are mostly Narcomoeba #5-7. If you think of them in this way I think you'll start to see their value. While narcomoeba merely needs to be dredged, over it is superior, Bloodghast also needs to be dredged over unlike Narcomoeba it can also be discarded to Looting other outlets and still function. Bloodghast also requires another thing to happen, a land needs to enter play. This is more likely to happen in A) a higher land count build and B) via Dakmor Salvage. it pulls double duty as land and as a dredger. While it's never my dream play to have to play it as my first land drop, it has been INVALUABLE. The card wins games that would otherwise not be winable.

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Yeah I know Ghast is there for a different reason than Ichorids. I just don't get what's good about that approach. That's the whole argument I feel. No point in discussing that choice further, as I see it helps for DR fodder, I just feel that strategy is inferiour to just attacking with a bunch each turn.

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Of course I run Dread Return. It's one of the STRONGEST cards in the deck!

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That is what makes the difference. I completely and fully disagree with you on this one. Dread Return in my opinion is by far the worst card there is for Dredge. Because of the setup, the vulnurability to blow-outs, and mainly: because you almost never need it. Be honest: more than 80% of the games you win via DR could be won with Beatdown a mere turn later. You simply don't need the card to win. It requires some more work maybe, and I know it is fun to cast, but I'd rather play cards I feel I need.

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Ah! so its bad to DRAW Dread return

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No. I meant Dredge. Sorry, I just feel silly to type the word "Topdredge". If you are with your back against the wall, only have 2 Creatures and need to dredge a Sac outlet or another blocker, dredging DR just feels insulting.

Lastly regarding your last 2 quotes:

With Feldman style I mean the idea of not running anti-hate. I find this pretty shitty and since your SB doesn't run antihate but a way to play around that hate(morphboard) it is basicly the same idea I guess.
I agree that catching opponents off-guard may be a good thing but I have the same issues with it Vandalize elaborated above. Plus the selection of lands for this deck is subpar to run such a combo imo.


Edit: I completely forgot to say this: I don't think the DR plan is particularly weaker than the beatdown plan. That's why I still like lists like Hollywood's. He has 2 solid plans, that can work on their own as well as synergize. You don't have that too much, because of the Ghasts. Much more all-in I feel.

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Originally Posted by JBulko

also if you are only running 12 lands, isn't Coliseum less likely to be activated? Would it not be more consistent to just run Gemstone/City of Brass/ Tarnished Citadel?

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On turn 2? I don't think so. All the additional lands you run don't activate a turn 2 Coliseum.But that kind of play become most important in sideboarded games imo, and there I play 3 lands more.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Yeah but is that necesasary?No. Opponent has no hand cards and no outs,it is basicly a t1 kill for non DR lists, too.

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I believe that D. Return allows the pilot to avoid the games where an opponent topdecks a sweeper, and so necessary.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

No. Dredge isn't combo because of DR, it is combo because of the ability to interact with and abuse Bridge from Below. DR is ONE way of doing that.

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What you've described here is more like an engine as opposed to a combo.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I disagree. Dakmor Salvage isn't a magic card. This card is only needed with Bloodghasts, which in return make them even worse imo. Cmes into play tapped, doesn't tap for blue or red= meh

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Point taken. Sure, I would prefer that the Salvage produced blue or red, but back when I was playing PImps I was happy. I concede that it is a sub-optimal land, but since it does double duty as a land(as inefficient as it is) and a dredger(as little as it dredges) I can offset that by bringing Bloodghasts back and turn them into more zombies. If there is no FKZ that turn, then it just makes my next turn that much better.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

You quoted me out of context there(I wrote it kinda strange, too) What I meant is, it is about consistent Dredging. PImp solves this best, also it is better tousese draw spells as draw spells and not discard outlets

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PImp is great at what it does. But considering that LED isn't going anywhere, I asked how many outlets I needed. The answer wasn't 16. It just seems worse that C.Study and F.Looting and LED is going to win over PImp every time.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Why would it be helpful? You need 1 land and possibly cannot play more than 2 lands because the game ended. The less lands you Dredge, the better the deck will perform.(all referring to game 1).

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More lands reduce the need to mulligan(in some aspects) and makes each successive mulligan more likely to be keep-able. 12 lands does not seem to be conducive to mulligans. Your argument seems like a normal deck's 6-spell, 1-land hand, the hand is going to have all kinds of goodies, but may not have the means to get the job done.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Between 0 and 20 turns. Thing is, Ashen Ghould and Moebas make zombies, too. Ichorid is fine to be extracted. It is a faster beater than Bloodghast and requires less setup.Bridge is by far worse.

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Ashen Ghoul. ugh. You give your opponent too much time in this situation. You'll either see a sweeper or creatures larger than yours. Your response there seems like you might have inflated expectations of what narcs/Ashen Ghouls and even Ichorids can do for you if a Surgical hit your Bridges/Ichorids.
It is also possible that I underestimate them. I watched in round 4 as my friend(U/W miracles -featured in a deck tech) played Joseph(Que) whom I also consider a friend, Que had his bridges surgical'd. We talked after the match, If my friend Surgicals Que's ichorids instead of his Bridges, the game goes long, which heavily favors the U/W player. In this case Quadlaser wins, but it came down to what we later determined was a mistake.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Yeah I forgot the morphboard thingy. To be honest, that's the most appealing part of your list to me(bc it isn't relying on Bloodghast) I just found that it is way too slow. Exspecially with your choice of lands.

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Too slow? It's possible to turn 2 them. 2 lands, painter, Grindstone and LED... its 5 cards. Unlikely, sure but possible? absolutely! plus there are 12 search spells to help dig/tutor your way to a win.
Yes, there's quite a bit of junk in there but that hasn't been as inhibiting as it looks on paper.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Yeah I know Ghast is there for a different reason than Ichorids. I just don't get what's good about that approach. That's the whole argument I feel. No point in discussing that choice further, as I see it helps for DR fodder, I just feel that strategy is inferiour to just attacking with a bunch each turn.

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Bloodghasts are better at making zombie tokens than Ichorids are. This is a bold claim and both are going to have their moments. Bloodghasts cost you less. sacrificing Bloodghasts to do whatever, then playing your land for the turn, and having them jump right back into play. Within the shell I'm running they are more EXPLOSIVE. This is a quality I'm looking for. They also can sac before combat increasing the amount of tokens generated before a combat step removes your bridges. In this version I don't have to worry so much about losing bridges, if I'm attacking, it's for lethal.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

That is what makes the difference. I completely and fully disagree with you on this one. Dread Return in my opinion is by far the worst card there is for Dredge. Because of the setup, the vulnurability to blow-outs, and mainly: because you almost never need it. Be honest: more than 80% of the games you win via DR could be won with Beatdown a mere turn later. You simply don't need the card to win. It requires some more work maybe, and I know it is fun to cast, but I'd rather play cards I feel I need.

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You don't have to rely on it. With the way the deck is built, it just shows up and you win. Otherwise my deck functions in a similar way to Quadlaser. When Dread Return and a target show up for me, it's game over, Quadlaser doesn't have that opportunity, you always have to pass the turn. FKZ denies the opponent the ability to look at my GY and do the math that tells him what kind of decisions they have to make. Dread Return is the nail in the coffin.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

No. I meant Dredge. Sorry, I just feel silly to type the word "Topdredge". If you are with your back against the wall, only have 2 Creatures and need to dredge a Sac outlet or another blocker, dredging DR just feels insulting.

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first off, if you're blocking... you're doing it wrong.
This is exactly a situation wherein Bloodghast is superior. In this situation dredging a Dakmor Salvage can net several creatures or a Dread Return can be that sac outlet.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Lastly regarding your last 2 quotes:

With Feldman style I mean the idea of not running anti-hate. I find this pretty shitty and since your SB doesn't run antihate but a way to play around that hate(morphboard) it is basicly the same idea I guess.
I agree that catching opponents off-guard may be a good thing but I have the same issues with it Vandalize elaborated above. Plus the selection of lands for this deck is subpar to run such a combo imo.

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I see. well allowing myself to not be concerned about dredge hate has been exciting and relaxing.
What anti-hate cards are "better"( either more efficient, or more powerful) than the hate cards you bring them in against? What anti-hate card is better than crypt? is having the Nature's claim better than the cage? or leyline? how are those Ashen Ghouls against Faerie Macabres? I'd rather not deal with it... so I don't. :wink:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Edit: I completely forgot to say this: I don't think the DR plan is particularly weaker than the beatdown plan. That's why I still like lists like Hollywood's. He has 2 solid plans, that can work on their own as well as synergize. You don't have that too much, because of the Ghasts. Much more all-in I feel.

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I haven't seen his list, but I do agree that my list is more all-in. Though I don't know how much more all-in I am than Hollywood, or Quadlaser. How much MORE all-in am I? I'm not yet convinced that it's that much more.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

On turn 2? I don't think so. All the additional lands you run don't activate a turn 2 Coliseum.But that kind of play become most important in sideboarded games imo, and there I play 3 lands more.

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Then why not make the deck more consistent and switch the Coliseums into the board for Tarnished Citadels?
- Jason

Because they don't draw 3 and Citadels are not needed game one, as I stated multiple times already. I don't think this is going anywhere. Due to my lack of ability to make my point clear maybe. Or due to us having entirely different opinions on what this deck does needs and wants. Doing it wrong because of blocking?Wtf? Im afraid this is going in circles.

@jbulko: Despite it's weakness to Maverick, Quadlazer is actually quite good. I have goldfished with it lately, some. Unless it mulls to oblivion, it consistently goes off on turn two. By go off I mean get an overwhelming number of Cabal Therapies and Ichorids in the graveyard while getting oodles of zombie in play. For any competent player this is all you really need to win, unless your opponent topdecks an Ooze.

Que beat you in the mirror, so I misunderstand why you are complaining about the speed of Quadlaser.

Also, about the Cephalid Coliseum thing. Quadlaser(and any dredge) can run on one land but quite often has two for game one. Don't forget LED can activate Cephalid Coliseum.

But as usual it is a Meta call as to which deck is probably better Quadlaser or a dread return package.

Dude don't run Sun Titan, that is so last year. Go for the gold with Grisselbrand.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

@jbulko: Despite it's weakness to Maverick, Quadlazer is actually quite good. I have goldfished with it lately, some. Unless it mulls to oblivion, it consistently goes off on turn two. By go off I mean get an overwhelming number of Cabal Therapies and Ichorids in the graveyard while getting oodles of zombie in play. For any competent player this is all you really need to win, unless your opponent topdecks an Ooze.

Que beat you in the mirror, so I misunderstand why you are complaining about the speed of Quadlaser.

Also, about the Cephalid Coliseum thing. Quadlaser(and any dredge) can run on one land but quite often has two for game one. Don't forget LED can activate Cephalid Coliseum.

But as usual it is a Meta call as to which deck is probably better Quadlaser or a dread return package.

Dude don't run Sun Titan, that is so last year. Go for the gold with Grisselbrand.

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There is an answer to the question of which is better. We just haven't come to a consensus.
Que beat me in the mirror, and what does a single match say?
Grisselbrand? are you kidding me? Why is Grisselbrand better than Sun Titan? both can effectively dredge the rest of the deck. it's not like theres much library left after turn 3. do you really expect the life to matter? With all the reanimator and Sneak & Show, Grisselbrand actually looks like a BAD card to play. If either of these decks get one out first, you can activate it before they get legend ruled. If you want to play one just to be cool... do your thing.
How much value is there in goldfishing, then making claims about that deck's match-ups? Very little I suspect. It would also seem to steer conversation and opinion away from fact.

At least for once I am on Jasons side here.Griselbrand sucks ass in Dredge. Paying 7 life for Draw2-4 that can be stifled is not good enough imo. Sun Titan is clearly the better choice(even more so in a list with Bloodghast)
I don't think there is an answer. If there is; it's meta-dependant. I 'll keep playing Quad bc I don't like Salvage,Paradises,DRs and Bloodghasts and the opposite will be true for Jason I guess.
BTW: how often do you find yourself not being able to dredge enough with your config?

First of all, there are a few things I would like to point out at as far as the differences between lists are concerned and the various opinions surrounding them.

To re-reference from a few pages back, here the current list I'm running:

LED Dredge

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [RAV] Darkblast

//Sideboard
4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
3 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
2 [ISD] Memory's Journey
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

I want people to know several things about this list and the previous lists I've been playing to great successes. The first thing happens to be the variables that exist within the archetype itself, especially quantity. LED Dredge and its various counterparts are comprised of a core group of cards that are the very fabric for which the archetype is predicated on. However, there are slots that are open based on personal preference and a working knowledge of a localized meta. With this comes a great deal of personalization, and people tend to stick to their guns.

Take the list above for reference. I just played this variation for the first time last Wednesday and 8-0'ed all my games. The trick isn't in the composition of the deck itself, but the strength of your style of play and how your play matures over time with the archetype in general. Are two Darkblasts going to really be that much different than two Dread Returns? Sure. But it's the intentional decision to solidify your choices based on those key aforementioned factors that gives you the opportunity to adjust at any given time.

Which brings me to the oft-mired Bloodghast-Salvage interaction. Look, I don't despise it. If it works for you, then by all means continue playing it if it brings you success. However, it should be known that in selecting this package for your deck you are inherently weakening the strength of your dredges in necessitating dredges at two (2) off Salvage to fuel Dread Return - much like Manaless does/used to to a certain degree. However, to dismiss Ichorid as being a catalyst or slow option is a bit too much. Ichorid is a key facilitator and a single-serving token-making machine. The same is true for Ashen Ghoul - a card that works really well against Surgical Extraction-based sideboards.

The goal of the deck is to ultimately swarm an opponent with creatures by abusing the graveyard in its most fundamental capacity. Whether you choose to recur Bloodghasts or Ichorids or whatever, it doesn't matter because your opening a circuit to victory using this approach, and that's fine. But a deck like this is predicated far more on the strength of Dread Return, unlike some other lists such as Quadlazer.

Also, I think calling people "idiots" using three (3) Cabal Therapies is a bit immature. I played three at one time and still managed to do this at the SCG Invitational in Baltimore. I abandoned the concept soon thereafter and went back to four.

It's ironic; I would have made Top Eight in that event as my loss in Round Seven to Brian Braun-Duin was on the heels of a game one loss in a situation where I had four Bridges in my graveyard on turn two and three Narcomoebas in play - without hitting a Therapy after dredging through a good portion of my deck. That was a catalyst in my decision to (ultimately) run four, but there are some people who feel three is acceptable because of the radical speed the deck generates in plowing through itself and finding one or two - which is generally enough under most circumstances early in a match. But they're not idiots for thinking so; it's their preference.

As for the Painter-Grindstone combo post-board: I personally feel it is terrible and necessitates a complete overhaul of some major players post-board, where a few anti-hate spells and tight play will more than suffice. It's a cute idea, and I'm sure it has its merits, but I find it a bit too involved when you can just explode and win post-board games more frequently. I think that also is a more rewarding feeling from a personal perspective in being able to overcome the obstacle of hate; it will teach you to be a better player by forcing you to sideboard properly and know the format's top decks better from a game two and three perspective - the two games that really matter.

In regards to my list: I'm changing it around all the time, but I think I like this one a lot right now. At a total of thirteen (13) dredgers, I think the deck is beginning to feel like Combo-Control with the Therapies and Darkblasts - two incredibly good cards in general. Darkblast (as I previously mentioned) is criminally underrated right now and it can be a blowout against a lot of decks unprepared to deal with it. Even in the event it gets countered, it can come right back, kill a creature, and facilitate some action off acceleration or draw-filter spells. It also puts itself in the graveyard, and I like that.

I just think it gets overlooked. One seems too random to include main-deck, and I've been guilty of that too. I think as a utility spell, you want to hit it early and be able to use it to maximum effectiveness, and right now hitting those turn one critters can simply be a blowout.

And Tarnished Citadel is simply better in a list that doesn't run Bloodghast but in one that requires additional resources to cast more spells reliably in games two and three. I run a 1/1 split and I've found fourteen total lands between the main and board to be incredibly sufficient. This is where I believe the Quadlazer variant suffers in consistency but makes up for in redundancy. I think European players haven't figured out how to properly beat it yet, but aside from the one Top Eight here recently it still strikes me as a semi-risky shot when you're undoubtedly going to be mulliganing more aggressively to match your gold land to an off-color spell (B/R/G).

It really all comes back to preference. If something works for you and you believe it works to your benefit, by all means exploit it and create discussion about it. But remember, arguing a point as to why you feel something is better because you think so doesn't automatically assume it is the optimal solution.

But then again, in Dredge, I'm beginning to wonder if there truly is a such thing as an "optimal" solution, strategy or deck list. As long as the core of the archetype exists, the strength of the pilot will dictate its wins and ultimately clean up losses that could have easily been avoided with advanced tight play, proper mulligans and a strong sideboard (strategy). This is why you see the same Dredge pilots frequently place, because not only do they know the deck inside and out, they know how to sideboard correctly.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On a completely unrelated note, a part of me is dying to play Manaless again. I think it might be ripe for a return, and for a few keys reasons:

1.) Leyline is seeing less and less play right now.
2.) Cage sees little to minimal play.
3.) Surgical Extraction against a threat-dense list is practically useless - and always was. (Not to mention it runs sixteen (16) dredgers.)
4.) With Merfolk, RUG and other Aggro/Tempo decks stealing the spotlight and making a return, Manaless can completely overrun them and out-aggro them with ease.
5.) It can and usually does run up to four Faerie Macabres main-deck, vastly improving the Reanimator match-up and opposing Dredge match-up.
6.) With a threat-dense list, it can reliably Dread Return (as a four-of) one of potentially three to four Griselbrand and just blow games out immediately.

Just some food for thought. Giving it some love.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

It really all comes back to preference. If something works for you and you believe it works to your benefit, by all means exploit it and create discussion about it. But remember, arguing a point as to why you feel something is better because you think so doesn't automatically assume it is the optimal solution.

But then again, in Dredge, I'm beginning to wonder if there truly is a such thing as an "optimal" solution, strategy or deck list. As long as the core of the archetype exists, the strength of the pilot will dictate its wins and ultimately clean up losses that could have easily been avoided with advanced tight play, proper mulligans and a strong sideboard (strategy). This is why you see the same Dredge pilots frequently place, because not only do they know the deck inside and out, they know how to sideboard correctly.

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This is the truth. It feels so insanely silly to argue about maybe 5 slots in a deck when people keep throwing games away like crazy.

Arguments can be made for all the cards that are part of the discussion. However, statements like 'everyone playing this exact number of one card is an idiot' or 'DR is the strongest card of the deck' are clearly ridiculous and fundamentally untrue. Think about your deck again and tell me how far your Dread returns would get if there were no Bridge From Below or Golgari Grave Trolls in your deck. Dredge is a deck where you can impossibly say that one card is the 'best' or most important one, because there are at least 4-5 different cards without which the deck yould never ever exist (and those are Narco, Bridge From Below, Cabal Therapy and Grave Troll).

As Hollywood said, everyone has to play what he wants. But we should never dismiss other options entirely and just narrow-mindedly accept nothing but our own opinions. I, for one, agree with Hokus' elaborations and the quad list in all points but one: I fucking want more lands main. And that's what I'm going to do. Is that a problem? I can't imagine why it would be. I cut two PImps for them and relegate them to the sideboard, so the 75 are still pretty much the same. And does that all mean that I dismiss list like the Flayer one entirely? NO. Because if it works for people, why would I tell them to stop it. What I can do is elaborate my choices and see if people are convinced by them.

I personally don't like the Painter sideboard, because it pretty much creates a deck with 16 very bad lands, 7 discard spells, the combo plus 4 tutors to find it and 25 blanks. I don't think that this deck is legacy-competitive. But hell, if you like your plan and if you're too lazy to adapt your post board play to your opponent's hate cards, by all means play it.



PS: Jason, you said you're sure there IS a one and only best list of dredge and that people are just not able to find it/agree on it. If this is your true opinion, I'm sorry but you don't understand this deck, the format, competitive play in general and the whole game as such. Don't hate-quote me on this, just try to rethink your statement.

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Originally Posted by JBulko

There is an answer to the question of which is better. We just haven't come to a consensus.
Que beat me in the mirror, and what does a single match say?
Grisselbrand? are you kidding me? Why is Grisselbrand better than Sun Titan? both can effectively dredge the rest of the deck. it's not like theres much library left after turn 3. do you really expect the life to matter? With all the reanimator and Sneak & Show, Grisselbrand actually looks like a BAD card to play. If either of these decks get one out first, you can activate it before they get legend ruled. If you want to play one just to be cool... do your thing.
How much value is there in goldfishing, then making claims about that deck's match-ups? Very little I suspect. It would also seem to steer conversation and opinion away from fact.

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There is no best version of dredge. There is no best sideboard either. Legacy is a constantly shifting meta game because of the amount of viable decks. Also, everyone's meta is different because of the amount of playable decks.

But if we were to assume that there is a "best version" then it must be Quadlazer since it won in the mirror and placed higher than your list at the same event.


Grisselbrand is greater because of Show & Tell and Reanimator. You get a slight chance to sneak Grisselbrand in play via Show and Tell or Exhume. He pitches to Ichorid if the dread return plan isn't working. He is less situational, he doesn't need LED+Faithless Looting in the yard to be effective. Finally, simple math drawing/dredging 2-3 cards< drawing/dredging 7.