You think people come here to troll you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
May want to update the primer if that's the case. It is talking about the core of the deck being 4 Vesuva. You trolling us in the primer? :cool:
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You think people come here to troll you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
May want to update the primer if that's the case. It is talking about the core of the deck being 4 Vesuva. You trolling us in the primer? :cool:
Why do some sneak and show decks run 4 islands rather than 3? Or some UW decks run rest in peace while others run back to basics?Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Most decks have varying card numbers in the main. Changes in numbers of these cards have to do with a couple things, metagame, play style, and preference.
Have you played the deck? if so what is your meta? We can help you understand better if you more clearly articulate your questions. If you actually try the deck you will see the subtle differences when playing with different amounts of each of those cards.
I don't think you are trying to troll, but the answer to that question seems kinda obvious if you stop an think about it for a second. Maybe try to be more specific and it will look less like trolling.
Rock answered this better, but at its heart, this is the most flexible control deck in Legacy - the core of the deck takes up 23-24 slots (4 Crop, 12 Locus, X Forest, 3 Primeval Titan, Eye of Ugin, 3 Eldrazi). Everything else is esssentially a metagame slot, which gives this deck amazing flexibility, but also requires a high-metagame read.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
Hei guys
So here is my List for the perfect meta..:
2 All is Dust (So why this removal, The Answer is easy, I think ist better than an EE or Oblvion Stone. Against RUG delver or UWR Delver just to good. They can't waste us because of needle, Destroys PWS too, 2 cc less because of eye)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan (Titan is the ''Best Creature'' in the Deck. So 4 should be right)
3 Pithing Needle (3 are normal because a lot wasteland decks are around, RUG Delver, Burg, UWR delver etc.)
3 Vesuva (2-3 are ok and i think sometimes i can go to 2 but i like 3)
4 Tropical Island
4 Show and Tell (Best Card in the Deck! Don't understand why People Play 3..just bad...)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Cloudpost
1 Bojuka Bog (Can hurt ANT/Reanimate Players or Nimble Moongoose, should be main as a 1off)
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Brainstorm
1 Island
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Polluted Delta (5th Fetch for Brainstorm)
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Elephant Grass
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm (SB because i rarelly Need this main, But sb a very nice Card)
Pithing Needle isn't there to deal with wasteland, it names Liliana, Deathrite Shaman, Mangara, etc. Wasteland is easy to play around. It's not a crutch, but rather a support card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Some people don't like the 4th Show and Tell because it's a plan that's way down the line. It is a support card similar to Needle and should never be a crutch or a Plan A. However, in some matchups it becomes necessary which is why some people don't like only using 3.
Just won a local 1k with this build:
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [M10] Ponder
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
Matchups included stifle/naught, the mirror, Affinity, and OmniShow. Then Top 8 was Vampire Tribal Midrange (not lying, they almost got me with sanguine blood dropped on Show & tell into Exquisite Blood), The mirror again, then u/r pyromancer delver in finals.
Felt very solid. Mirror is, as always, horrid.
Hey guys,
Could anyone quickly run through the sideboard plan against combo decks? I'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out 12 cards to get rid of from the maindeck. Last time I played with this deck at a tournament I was still running elephant grass and oblivion stones in the board...Going to rock this deck Monday. Thanks in advance!
Side out Primeval Titan, Ulamog, Kozilek, Show and Tell, and Candelabra of Tawnos (or any useless card in the deck if there is one)Quote:
Originally Posted by ac3eb
Playing Around Wasteland?? 1 Wasteland can hurt us really hard in a Match like RUG Delver or UWR delver? I think in a match up like this, we can't Play around this;)
I think pihting first naming is always wasteland..
Snt into Titan should be winn moest of the Time;)
The reason why wasteland is hurting you is because you're playing INTO wasteland when you should be playing AROUND it. This is a deck that should never be played with a single linear plan unlike a deck like Sneak and Tell or Jund, rather you should have multiple plans for multiple possibilities in the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Below are a few ways to play around wasteland:
1: Don't keep hands that require you to be unmolested for several turns. This is even stated in the primer and that primer is really outdated.
2: Also stated in the primer, T1 Cloudpost on the play is very good. If the opponent decides to wasteland it T1 they can't advance, if they don't you can just carry on. If they decide to wasteland it later it's like getting a dual land wastelanded playing delver. 75% of the reason you put it there T1 is to get it wastelanded in the first place and it is a win if you don't anyway. This however is a terrible idea on the draw since they can wasteland it and keep casting relevant spells while you're sitting there helpless.
3: If you don't play a T1 cloudpost refrain from playing one after unless you can protect it or you're playing it with the goal of getting it wastelanded. Some people won't even naturally play Cloudpost the entire game and Show and Tell or cast Primeval Titan "the old fashioned way" because by doing so they can make wasteland less effective until they land the Primeval Titan.
4: This plan only really works on G1 and even so it rarely ever happens. Try and get the Tropical Island wastelanded. This means fetching it instead of basic lands or making the distinction between basic lands and dual lands on the field. However this should only be attempted in the early turns of the game because eventually you're going to reveal that you're a post-ramp deck. The entire game shouldn't be spent trying to do this.
There are multiple other ways you can play around wasteland but listing all of them would take a really long time. Using Pithing Needle as a crutch is how you fail with this deck. Naming Wasteland with Pithing Needle is perfectly acceptable vs. Delver or Stoneblade because those are the only legitimate targets for it but otherwise Liliana is actually really scary and naming Deathrite Shaman when the opponent plays it T1 messes up their line of play and gives you a pretty good area to breathe. If you know how to play around wasteland those matchups are actually quite good.
I only ever Show and Tell Primeval Titan as a counter-protection shell or if the situation needs Primeval Titan that turn. You shouldn't play it just because you can.
I think sometimes it's better to Play t1 needle and not a post, specially when you know what the openent Plays. Against Tempo Match it's just better;)
That's game 2. Throwing needles with your eyes closed is fun and all, but you really can't hit your opponent where it hurts until you know where to throw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Case and point: Calling... well anything... turn 1 against OmniShow is just... just... well, bad. (I guess if you call the right fetch congratulations).
Sure, Wasteland is the biggest catch-all and is run by most decks, but to be honest, I question whether you've played the deck enough because most people realized six months to a year ago that there are more devastating effects an opponent can inflict on us than picking off Locus lands in an even trade. Also, Abrupt Decay has made Needle exponentially weaker.
yes your right but normally you wait a turn and moest of the time you see what they Play and hit second turn a needle..
...which is how you should be playing Pithing Needle in the first place. Creatures have summoning sickness and a single activation of Liliana or Jace isn't going to end the game. What cards are you playing against that work as soon as they enter that put you at a significant disadvantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
1. How was Trinket?
1.5. If you're going to run trinket, what are your thoughts on an Engineered Explosive main (and perhaps a chalice in the side to put on 0(I Know it's bad)) or another needle in the side)?
I kinda miss the single Mox Diamond, not great but just sayin.
2. Wish you had an Oracle instead of the trinket?
3. Care to tell us how you sideboarded?
4. Why no Butcher in this meta?
Played a tiny tournament yesterday, using almost Rock Lee's list from above with these changes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Main:
- 1 Oralce of Mul Daya
- 2 Expedition Map
- 1 Ponder
+ 1 Show and Tell
+ 2 Candelabra of Tawnos
+ 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB:
- 3 Phyrexian Revoker
+ 1 Venser
+ 2 Pithing Needle
Only went 2 - 2 :-/
Round 1 : MUD (Welder) 1:2
Chalice in addition with Ports and Wastelands slowed me down too much
Round 2 : Mono U Illusions 1:2
He was too fast and played B2B main! :cry:
Round 3 : D'n'T 2:0
No real problems, some nice top-draws, 2 quick wins
Round 4 : Goblins (Rb) 2:1
Again a real fast deck, but Chasmn main helped a lot! And game 3, turn 3: Show and Tell into Emmy:cool:
Losing to Mono U Illusions....ok. Fast aggro Deck with Counters, happens. But I would like to ask for some advice on how to fight MUD? Felt like gimmy more Needles, since one stopped Karn, but Metalworker ruined the remaining game (enabling Sundering Titan...).
Griselbrand, Wirewood SymbioteQuote:
Originally Posted by 203995014
I'm sorry guys, but i really can't understand why ponder seems so good to the most of you while i find it useless/horrible 90% of the times i have it in hand. It will never be preferred to another turn 1 card (with the exception of G1 pithing needle, of course). It forces you to sacrifice your fetchlands during your turn to pay for its cost, exposing your lands to easier wastelanding and limiting the effectiveness of your crop rotations, since you cannot always have a second coloured source in play to at least simulate a crop rotation. I found it helpful expecially in late game as a shuffling effect, a thing that can be done by a trinket mage too at that point, with the bonus of providing an extra body to chumpblock something/protect your dudes from edict effects.
Also, why on earth should you side out Show and tells against combo decks not relying on SnT engine? It pitches to FoW at the very least, and allows you to drop an early bomb that can save your ass against storm/elves. It's also a very tempting card, that will be discarded most of the times by your opponents, saving your cantrips and sometimes even your counterspells too. Having to win a game against ANT by dropping your posts + eye in order to find your lonely Emrakul and cast it looks so slow that you'll have to face half of their deck hate in order to survive. In addition, you have to keep an eye on the clock, with a lost g1 pursuing that plan is a big risk if you want to end a couple more games in time.
1. I never saw the purpose in EE. Repeal And Show & Tell does the job plenty vs delver. Mox diamond was there for color fixing in rUG build, which isn't needed as much in UG.Quote:
Originally Posted by That nice guy
2. Tried 1-4 oracle the last two weeks. Prefer Zero /w ponders.
3. Perhaps when more awake. My sideboarding is very organic, and always opponent's deck dependent.
4. Testing no butcher just to squeeze slots. No Standstills, No huge counter wars, and faster clocks all dissuade Kozilek.
A lot of it is that shuffle effect. The gods of randomness hate me, and there have been several instances off the top of my head where I've floated two, or even three, Primeval Titan or Eldrazi on the top of my deck with Sensei's Divining Top. Ponder is another effect that can function as another Top while also making those cards, if necessary, go away. Decks like ours need to see as many cards as possible in order to be successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
At least from what I've seen, most combo decks kill you the turn they decide to go off, and the turn you Show and Tell anything in is a turn that costs you three mana and that's it. Your opponent still has his or her turn to progress, and a lot of times that will kill you. Also don't underestimate the value of the fact that your opponent now knows you have two fewer cards that can stop his or her plan. How many cards do you now have in your hand? Two? Well, that means you probably can only counter one spell safely. Three cards in hand? You can probably counter one, maybe two spells if you're lucky.Quote:
Also, why on earth should you side out Show and tells against combo decks not relying on SnT engine? It pitches to FoW at the very least, and allows you to drop an early bomb that can save your ass against storm/elves. It's also a very tempting card, that will be discarded most of the times by your opponents, saving your cantrips and sometimes even your counterspells too. Having to win a game against ANT by dropping your posts + eye in order to find your lonely Emrakul and cast it looks so slow that you'll have to face half of their deck hate in order to survive. In addition, you have to keep an eye on the clock, with a lost g1 pursuing that plan is a big risk if you want to end a couple more games in time.
Let me describe a particular combo matchup to you. One of my friends plays Tin Fins, and sometimes we get matched up against each other when we play in local tournaments. Let me describe Game 1 to you:
Me (Turn 1): Land, maybe play Top, go.
Him (Turn 1): Win the game.
We had a game like this, and for fun, Game 2 I decided to bring my entire 15-card sideboard in against him (a fact that I made clear to him as I was doing it). Why? Because I can, because it's funny, and because all 15 cards I was running (for reference, I'm running Rock's RUG list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post784770) have game against Tin Fins.
I don't remember what pro Magic player said it - I think it was Frank Karsten - but he described the golden rule of playing control as this: "Don't do anything." Game 2, that's exactly what I did: I did absolutely nothing. If I cast anything, it was one-mana spells, and unless they were Sensei's Divining Top or Ponder, I did it at the end of his turn. Fast forward to around turn 9 or 10 or so. I have a full hand of cards, including 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Force of Will, and a Brainstorm, and I'm floating 2 Mindbreak Trap with Top. I've already countered two reanimation spells with Swan Song. And yet I still did nothing. Play land, go. End of your turn, peek at the library. Play land, go.
Eventually I got to 15 mana, cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and won.
The primer mentions it, but it bears being repeated and re-summarized until it's pounded into your head: as the number of turns in a Legacy game increases, so too does this deck's chance of winning. If the game goes past 10 or so turns, I don't care what my opponent is playing: I've won. Storm? Doesn't matter; I've won. Delver? Doesn't matter; I've won. Miracles? Doesn't matter; I've won.
Show and Tell counts as doing something. This deck wants to do nothing, because if the deck can get away with doing nothing for long enough, it wins.