[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by apple713

what are pox's three best / worst matchups? I'm looking to meta game this deck for something.

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From both building the deck and fighting against certain archetypes, I've found this to be true. This only applies to the 'control' mono-B version. When I did Golgari Pox, I failed quite hard.

Pox is a bye vs:
1. Threshold - It tries to play with as few resources as possible and free counter spells. We hit all resources at once.
2. Combo using the stack - Storm Combo, etc. Any deck that doesn't play permanents or very few threats on the battlefield.
3. Low land-count decks. If you're running Sinkholes/Wastelands and they don't have Aether Vial, low land counts auto-lose.

Pox has a very hard time with:
1. Burn - Syphon Life and Sun Droplet may or may not help. Gotta draw them.
2. Graveyard Strategies - It could be Dredge, it could be Death Rite Shaman, or Grim Lavamancer, Re-animator, Life from the Loam, Crucible, etc.
3. Traditional Control / Counter-top Control: very long games means your opponent can recover from your disruption. Control normally gets stronger the further the game gets.

Using the Rock Paper Scissors analogy:

Control > Pox > Combo
Aggro decks should lose but if it can play 2 or more threats per turn, your sideboard should dig you out of that hole.

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Originally Posted by apple713

what are pox's three best / worst matchups? I'm looking to meta game this deck for something.

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For my G/B Pox build I'd love to play against:
1. Stoneblade decks, less Jaces the better
2. Delver decks that don't run Price of Progress
3. Midrange decks like Jund or Shardless BUG
4. Creature decks that have no way to draw extra cards Merfolk and Death and Taxes. Sometime Goblins can overload my answers with Matron and Ringleader

I don't want to play against:
1. Burn
2. Anything with Price of Progress or Blood Moon as a main strategy

Toss-up matches:
1. Miracles, Jace and SDT can be a pain but they have so few threats and Liliana is a beating (I don't think I've played a round against Miracles without ultimating Liliana, usually more than once)
2. Show and Tell decks, discard can be too slow and I've lost to Show and Tell or Sneak Attack off the top.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

For my G/B Pox build I'd love to play against:
1. Stoneblade decks, less Jaces the better
2. Delver decks that don't run Price of Progress
3. Midrange decks like Jund or Shardless BUG
4. Creature decks that have no way to draw extra cards Merfolk and Death and Taxes. Sometime Goblins can overload my answers with Matron and Ringleader

I don't want to play against:
1. Burn
2. Anything with Price of Progress or Blood Moon as a main strategy

Toss-up matches:
1. Miracles, Jace and SDT can be a pain but they have so few threats and Liliana is a beating (I don't think I've played a round against Miracles without ultimating Liliana, usually more than once)
2. Show and Tell decks, discard can be too slow and I've lost to Show and Tell or Sneak Attack off the top.

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from you're analysis it seems favorable in the meta right now so why isn't it getting any attention?

do you have a list to reference?

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

From both building the deck and fighting against certain archetypes, I've found this to be true. This only applies to the 'control' mono-B version. When I did Golgari Pox, I failed quite hard.

Pox is a bye vs:
1. Threshold - It tries to play with as few resources as possible and free counter spells. We hit all resources at once.
2. Combo using the stack - Storm Combo, etc. Any deck that doesn't play permanents or very few threats on the battlefield.
3. Low land-count decks. If you're running Sinkholes/Wastelands and they don't have Aether Vial, low land counts auto-lose.

Pox has a very hard time with:
1. Burn - Syphon Life and Sun Droplet may or may not help. Gotta draw them.
2. Graveyard Strategies - It could be Dredge, it could be Death Rite Shaman, or Grim Lavamancer, Re-animator, Life from the Loam, Crucible, etc.
3. Traditional Control / Counter-top Control: very long games means your opponent can recover from your disruption. Control normally gets stronger the further the game gets.

Using the Rock Paper Scissors analogy:

Control > Pox > Combo
Aggro decks should lose but if it can play 2 or more threats per turn, your sideboard should dig you out of that hole.

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do u have a list to reference?



I'm trying to find a reasonable shell for dark depths and it appears that this (either of the decks you are both suggesting) would be a good fit. depths practically gets a bye vs burn, and with the simple addition of crop rotation bojuka bog is always 1 mana away. not sure if the lists y'all are referencing are mono b or BG

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Originally Posted by apple713

I'm trying to find a reasonable shell for dark depths and it appears that this (either of the decks you are both suggesting) would be a good fit. depths practically gets a bye vs burn, and with the simple addition of crop rotation bojuka bog is always 1 mana away. not sure if the lists y'all are referencing are mono b or BG

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It looks like we both seek a good shell for the DD/TS-combo. I think the best suited Pox-Shell would be Bg Loam Pox. At least, that's my current starting point. Haven't properly tested it yet, though. In a mono black Pox the combo would be pretty hard to assemble.

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Originally Posted by apple713

from you're analysis it seems favorable in the meta right now so why isn't it getting any attention?

do you have a list to reference?

I'm trying to find a reasonable shell for dark depths and it appears that this (either of the decks you are both suggesting) would be a good fit. depths practically gets a bye vs burn, and with the simple addition of crop rotation bojuka bog is always 1 mana away. not sure if the lists y'all are referencing are mono b or BG

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My most recent list posted a few weeks ago. My last few results:
SCG Worchester in July 8-0-2 (1 ID) Lost to Burn in Top 8
SCG Worchester in October 6-3
Legacy Champs 7-3
GPNJ 3-3 drop.

I have been playing variations on this list for 3 years now, it can be very difficult to play and take a lot of practice to know when to dredge and when to draw, there are also a lot of amazing lines using entomb, cabal therapy, bloodghast, and factory. My opponent is always befuddled when I play a factory and immediately activate it, then I sack it to cabal therapy and they are pretty bummed.

This list includes Crop rotation main to support Dark Depths and Thespian Stage, which is a concession I made to give the deck a faster win condition and some free wins, I was taking a lot of draws to slow players playing miracles in Opens. (OmniStrata and I have discussed this over the last couple days)

This deck is capable of beating everything in the meta but like any deck can lose to bad draws any given day and with 27 lands it is bound to happen. My losses at GPNJ we largely a result of drawing lands 6 turns in a row after stabilizing the board. I am 3-1 vs Burn since adding crop rotation main. I also have 80% win percentage in playtest games against UR Delver.

If you have an questions or comments let me know.

2 Bloodghast
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Small Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquizition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Disfigure
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

@ jredelstein: would you ever consider SDT? With fetch and tutors it could help when in topdeck-mode. I know people have different opinions about SDT, but it has served me well in the past. The inclusion of DD/TS-combo gives another angle to the deck as well.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

@ jredelstein: would you ever consider SDT? With fetch and tutors it could help when in topdeck-mode. I know people have different opinions about SDT, but it has served me well in the past. The inclusion of DD/TS-combo gives another angle to the deck as well.

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I have been considering it lately, I ran Sylvan Library for a bit but was very underwhelming. My concern would be that it is a non-disruption spell but with fetches, Entomb, Crop Rotation, and Loam there are a lot of ways to get a fresh 3 on top. I think it is definitely worth a try.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

My most recent list posted a few weeks ago. My last few results:
SCG Worchester in July 8-0-2 (1 ID) Lost to Burn in Top 8
SCG Worchester in October 6-3
Legacy Champs 7-3
GPNJ 3-3 drop.

I have been playing variations on this list for 3 years now, it can be very difficult to play and take a lot of practice to know when to dredge and when to draw, there are also a lot of amazing lines using entomb, cabal therapy, bloodghast, and factory. My opponent is always befuddled when I play a factory and immediately activate it, then I sack it to cabal therapy and they are pretty bummed.

This list includes Crop rotation main to support Dark Depths and Thespian Stage, which is a concession I made to give the deck a faster win condition and some free wins, I was taking a lot of draws to slow players playing miracles in Opens. (OmniStrata and I have discussed this over the last couple days)

This deck is capable of beating everything in the meta but like any deck can lose to bad draws any given day and with 27 lands it is bound to happen. My losses at GPNJ we largely a result of drawing lands 6 turns in a row after stabilizing the board. I am 3-1 vs Burn since adding crop rotation main. I also have 80% win percentage in playtest games against UR Delver.

If you have an questions or comments let me know.

2 Bloodghast
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Small Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquizition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Disfigure
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

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Ive played with bloodghast before but ultimately cut him because he doesnt block which is a huge drawback. Id probably do 1 spirit 1 bloodghast at the least because you can always entomb for it. Deed is nice but you wont like it as much when you have more permanenys on he field. Sdt fits the roll well and plays well with deed.

With the current rise of TC, I feel that Hymn, though being raw power, can just plain help getting delve-cards. I'm as of now more on the pinpoint-discard, with back-up Sinkholes. I was wondering what you guys thinking about how to battle TC?

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Originally Posted by Chatto

With the current rise of TC, I feel that Hymn, though being raw power, can just plain help getting delve-cards. I'm as of now more on the pinpoint-discard, with back-up Sinkholes. I was wondering what you guys thinking about how to battle TC?

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Black has chains / leyline

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Originally Posted by Chatto

With the current rise of TC, I feel that Hymn, though being raw power, can just plain help getting delve-cards. I'm as of now more on the pinpoint-discard, with back-up Sinkholes. I was wondering what you guys thinking about how to battle TC?

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I think more sinkholes helps, but Hymn is still a great card, especially early. I play mox diamond, and often play Hymn on T1 off a diamond and its pretty backbreaking, even if they are a cruise deck

Anyone dared do assymetric sideboarding? I have been considering one or two Helm of Obedience to bring in vs decks that probably run RIP.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Anyone dared do assymetric sideboarding? I have been considering one or two Helm of Obedience to bring in vs decks that probably run RIP.

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Sideboard space is too precious to use vs. a 'probably' deck. apple713 wondered what I referenced, I mentioned my list is control mono-B. My meta doesn't have burn in large amounts.

I saw a rack build that actually 'strikes back' to the olden days. It's not 8-rack. But what caught my attention was that it ran 4 Pox and 4 Smallpox. Seems we have a lot of people leaning toward a 'combo finish' in their SmallPox decks. The problem I have observed with DD-Hexmage or DD Thespian Stage is that it is very easy to ruin the win condition. Entomb Loam setups get defeated by Graveyard hate and all combo finishes can be defeated by one card.

"But they have to have it in their hand" goes the argument. I build my Pox deck to be impossible to sideboard against. The Pro? 15 of your enemy's 75 are pretty much dead in the water. The Con? uh... I don't see one. There just aren't enough Pithing Needles, Leyline of the Voids, and protection from Target Player that can turn off my deck's ability to wreck you.

P.S. Plague Boiler is godlike. Granted it won't stop super fast rushes, but it's real strength lies in the ability to ruin non-creature non-land permanent strategies. I suppose Golgari Pox players can work it faster, but a turn 1 Boiler from Dark Ritual behaves like a Trinisphere. Your foes won't cast anything and you can Hymn them into submission. I used to run Culling Scales in that slot, but my meta is actually a bit slower so larger cmc permanents start appearing via mana dorks and artifact mana ramp.

Hey folks,

I was hoping I could get some opinions to improve my list. You can see it here: Mono-Black Pox

I think I have this deck where I want to be for the most part; except it has one hole - no library manipulation for top-deck mode. I've tried running Sensei's Divining Top; however, without fetches SDT loses a lot of utility after its first activation. I'm not a fan of adding fetches considering the 8 Pox effects + aggro meta, and I don't think Dakmor Salvage dredging is reliable enough.

It's a super janky card for Legacy, but what do folks think about Crystal Ball? I'm a believer in Dark Ritual, so I'd rather not take those out, but would -1 Bloodghast, -1 Nether Spirit; +2 Crystal Ball work?

Does anyone know any esoteric sources of library manipulation for Mono-Black other than SDT and Crystal Ball that I might be over looking? In general, feel free to make comments and suggestions to my list.

Thanks!

EDIT: Curious, does anyone have Michael Keller's list which he mentioned on pages 10-12? The guy sounds intelligent, I'd like to see his take on Rack-Pox.

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Originally Posted by draugr

Hey folks,

I was hoping I could get some opinions to improve my list. You can see it here: Mono-Black Pox

I think I have this deck where I want to be for the most part; except it has one hole - no library manipulation for top-deck mode. I've tried running Sensei's Divining Top; however, without fetches SDT loses a lot of utility after its first activation. I'm not a fan of adding fetches considering the 8 Pox effects + aggro meta, and I don't think Dakmor Salvage dredging is reliable enough.

It's a super janky card for Legacy, but what do folks think about Crystal Ball? I'm a believer in Dark Ritual, so I'd rather not take those out, but would -1 Bloodghast, -1 Nether Spirit; +2 Crystal Ball work?

Does anyone know any esoteric sources of library manipulation for Mono-Black other than SDT and Crystal Ball that I might be over looking? In general, feel free to make comments and suggestions to my list.

Thanks!

EDIT: Curious, does anyone have Michael Keller's list which he mentioned on pages 10-12? The guy sounds intelligent, I'd like to see his take on Rack-Pox.

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sadly he never revealed it, i'm inclined to believe he was not too successful with it and just decided to drop it..

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Originally Posted by draugr

Hey folks,

I was hoping I could get some opinions to improve my list. You can see it here: Mono-Black Pox

I think I have this deck where I want to be for the most part; except it has one hole - no library manipulation for top-deck mode. I've tried running Sensei's Divining Top; however, without fetches SDT loses a lot of utility after its first activation. I'm not a fan of adding fetches considering the 8 Pox effects + aggro meta, and I don't think Dakmor Salvage dredging is reliable enough.

It's a super janky card for Legacy, but what do folks think about Crystal Ball? I'm a believer in Dark Ritual, so I'd rather not take those out, but would -1 Bloodghast, -1 Nether Spirit; +2 Crystal Ball work?

Does anyone know any esoteric sources of library manipulation for Mono-Black other than SDT and Crystal Ball that I might be over looking? In general, feel free to make comments and suggestions to my list.

Thanks!

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Your list seems a bit cluncky. With four Daddy Pox and four Smallpox 22 lands is way too few, if you ask me. Drop one Daddy Pox for Crucible could do the trick. Also, do you want to go Rack-Pox or Mono Black Pox: right now it looks you didn't choose between the two.

If going for Rack-Pox, I would suggest making room for Funeral Charm and a one or two-off Shrieking Affliction, dropping some creatures. And why Spawning Pool? If going for Mono Black Pox, well... There are plenty of good examples here and on the internet in general. MBP does mean you will have to change your manapool a lot :smile:

SDT is the only way to filter you topdeck if staying Mono Black. Crystal Ball is cute (never tested it) but I don't really like it. It competes with your 3cc-slots, for sure, and it doesn't net you a card like SDT can.

I'm not saying your list can't work, but some more focus would be better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by draugr

EDIT: Curious, does anyone have Michael Keller's list which he mentioned on pages 10-12? The guy sounds intelligent, I'd like to see his take on Rack-Pox.

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I PM him once, asking about his results, but he never replied. Guess it wasn't a great succes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by draugr

Hey folks,

I was hoping I could get some opinions to improve my list. You can see it here: Mono-Black Pox

I think I have this deck where I want to be for the most part; except it has one hole - no library manipulation for top-deck mode. I've tried running Sensei's Divining Top; however, without fetches SDT loses a lot of utility after its first activation. I'm not a fan of adding fetches considering the 8 Pox effects + aggro meta, and I don't think Dakmor Salvage dredging is reliable enough.

It's a super janky card for Legacy, but what do folks think about Crystal Ball? I'm a believer in Dark Ritual, so I'd rather not take those out, but would -1 Bloodghast, -1 Nether Spirit; +2 Crystal Ball work?

Does anyone know any esoteric sources of library manipulation for Mono-Black other than SDT and Crystal Ball that I might be over looking? In general, feel free to make comments and suggestions to my list.

Thanks!

EDIT: Curious, does anyone have Michael Keller's list which he mentioned on pages 10-12? The guy sounds intelligent, I'd like to see his take on Rack-Pox.

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Pox's inherent inconsistency is due to being a non-blue deck. I ran Crystal Ball's a long time ago, but the problem was I'm always trying to stay at 3 lands so that 1 mana activation hurts, part of the reason I dropped SDT. 4 DADDY POX :cool:! Whoa, you're crazy not running 24 lands minimum.

Library Manipulation comes in either Scry form spells, which I prefer, or none at all. If so, you should just go the 'hard draw' route like Phyrexian Arena. Don't want to pay life? A single Bottled Cloister may help. It works well even in top deck mode, which is where you'll be all the time anyway. The Cloister works for Ensnaring Bridge Pox too.

As for others, there's Witch's Eye (not good for non-aggro pox), Drown in Sorrow (excellent if you're not running prison with Night of Souls' Betrayal), and Lose Hope (kill a dork and set your deck for B?)

Got 4th out of about 16 last night with the following list. Ended up 2-0-2. Won against Infect, Burn, drew against Shardless BUG (because I forgot to reanimate nether spirit....would have won the match. I know, I know, I'm salty about it still), drew against UW Stoneblade (won g1, missplayed g2 and should have scooped to conserve time, needed one more turn to win g3).

Here's the list:

Creatures: 1
1 Nether Spirit

Spells: 33
3 Mox Diamond
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands: 26
3 Barren Moor
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
1 Zuran Orb
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
3 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Toxic Deluge


Thoughts: I actually intended on playing 2 Barren Moor 2 Cabal Pit but couldn't find my second pit. I think I would prefer the 2/2 split. Choke is decent, but I think 3 is probably too many slots in my board. I would prefer them to be 2 Chains of Mephistopheles but sadly I do not own any.

I used to run 4 Dark Rituals in the place of 3 Mox Diamonds & 1 Entomb, but I much prefer this setup. T1 Mox Diamond is a hoss, especially if you have a loam in hand.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Pox's inherent inconsistency is due to being a non-blue deck. I ran Crystal Ball's a long time ago, but the problem was I'm always trying to stay at 3 lands so that 1 mana activation hurts, part of the reason I dropped SDT. 4 DADDY POX :cool:! Whoa, you're crazy not running 24 lands minimum.

Library Manipulation comes in either Scry form spells, which I prefer, or none at all. If so, you should just go the 'hard draw' route like Phyrexian Arena. Don't want to pay life? A single Bottled Cloister may help. It works well even in top deck mode, which is where you'll be all the time anyway. The Cloister works for Ensnaring Bridge Pox too.

As for others, there's Witch's Eye (not good for non-aggro pox), Drown in Sorrow (excellent if you're not running prison with Night of Souls' Betrayal), and Lose Hope (kill a dork and set your deck for B?)

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Hey Omni,

I can see that 1 mana activation to be an issue.

As for my 22 lands: 4-5 years ago, before Liliana of the Veil, people would run 4 Pox, 4 Smallpox, and have a mana base of 4 Mishra's 4 Urborg, 4 Wasteland, and the rest swamp to add up to 24 or 25; the prescribed 24 lands usually had a large number of non-basics and Wasteland in it.

Consider that I'm running all black mana producers, 2 of the lands recur, I have 5 cards which are pitched to be cast (Nether Spirit, Bloodghast), and that I run 4 Dark Rituals, and then the 22 lands might be more reasonable. Moreover, I'm a firm believer in the canonical big Pox philosophy of only having 3 lands out at a given time, and don't run anything that has a CMC over 3. Land has never been an issue for this deck.

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Originally Posted by draugr

Hey Omni,

I can see that 1 mana activation to be an issue.

As for my 22 lands: 4-5 years ago, before Liliana of the Veil, people would run 4 Pox, 4 Smallpox, and have a mana base of 4 Mishra's 4 Urborg, 4 Wasteland, and the rest swamp to add up to 24 or 25; the prescribed 24 lands usually had a large number of non-basics and Wasteland in it.

Consider that I'm running all black mana producers, 2 of the lands recur, I have 5 cards which are pitched to be cast (Nether Spirit, Bloodghast), and that I run 4 Dark Rituals, and then the 22 lands might be more reasonable. Moreover, I'm a firm believer in the canonical big Pox philosophy of only having 3 lands out at a given time, and don't run anything that has a CMC over 3. Land has never been an issue for this deck.

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The extra lands has a bonus purpose. Sideboarding ease. It's fine to side out 2 swamps when your manabase is really thick. What's more, Mono B Poxers still need to be wary of Wasteland enemies who target their Factories and Urborgs.

In fact, if my enemies ran more Land Destruction than the usual Wasteland setups, I'd probably consider ditching Mishra's and going the Chimeric Idol route. I almost miss that thing since it's far easier to disrupt and attack with Idol than Mishra's which eats up two mana to attack. However, the 24 mana base gives me a solid growth of lands. I will play to 6 lands, but I only have space for 1 Big Pox and 3 Prison cells: Night of Soul's Betrayal, Engineered Plague (totally worth 1 maindeck), and Trinisphere.