Say this again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I let lots of things resolve and don't do things on a one on one basis, but they still find a way through.
Printable View
Say this again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I let lots of things resolve and don't do things on a one on one basis, but they still find a way through.
Yes, so you let them resolve [let us say] containment priest or RiP. Reanimator's general answer is "I'll decay/massacre that priest" or "I'll decay/golgari that RiP." Drawing either of those spells lets us win, but it doesn't actually bring you closer to winning (since you're losing a turn + draw). That's why show and tell is so useful (not against priest obviously); it helps you win while invalidating a resolved RiP. More answers should follow that mentality of "your hate doesn't matter, I'm going to go off through it." Realm is a card that lets you stock yards through RiP/Leyline, then it lets you turn it against the priest or cage and say "that's not here anymore" as you resolve reanimate and hopefully win.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
edit: the more green you go vs them, the more you're playing into DnT's mana denial package as well (aven mind sensors and wastelands).
I'm playing chases list. That's why I was overwhelmed by them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
I'm honestly surprised at how bad you believe the dnt matchup to be, I feel advantaged preboard and not extremely disadvantaged post board, maybe I just play the deck a bit differently? I'm not sure. While I don't like to play against dnt it is certainly no worse than 40-60.
Maybe I'm boarding wrong. But I don't win 40% of the time I can tell you thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Stryfo
The people at my shop that play DnT, only play DnT. So I have an utterly miserable record against them. The only time I can ever beat them is with a T1 sire of insanity, and more recently using their RIP against them with Helm.
However the explosive opening oriented Reanimator lists that usually help me against DnT aren't the best after turn 3 and not that consistent vs the rest of the field.
How good/necessary is the flexibility that Izzet Charm offers? In my experience, when I've tried out the Lotus Petal version, which has no Hapless Researchers and no Izzet Charms, I never really felt like I wanted more Careful Studies or maindeck removal. Is there some strategic difference that makes the Hapless Researcher build of the deck want more discard outlets (beyond the 4 Entomb/4 Hapless/4 Careful Study that it currently runs) or creature interaction? Because if it doesn't, it appears to me that those should just be Dazes or Ponders or something, which would be both more mana efficient and would make the mana less difficult (although you'd probably need some Disfigures in the board).
The main benefit of the Izzet Charm is that it potentially hits every realistic form of interaction (except beginning game with leyline) on the stack or in play (drs/containment priest). While providing answers, it's still a combo piece in the absence of a removal target and it pitches to force. It's not a perfect card for the archetype, but it's pretty close.
I'd guess that much of what Chase's list does is start going off (dumping critters in the yard) either in their combat step [hapless block trick] or at the end of their turn, then untapping into reanimate effect. That kind of tempo would at least explain why petals weren't seen in his list.
I mean, clearly izzet charm is not necessary, there have been decks for a long time that have gone without it and been quite successful. I personally think izzet charm is a very powerful addition to the deck, and allows for play patterns that are not available to the traditional lists. I am not a fan of daze in this deck anymore as I hate how much it depends on being in the top few cards of your deck to do anything (ditto lotus petal) and I also don't really care for returning lands to my hand in most situations. Izzet charm is not there to function as strictly a discard outlet, it is there as a catchall card that is good in a wide variety of matchups at a large number of points during a game. Being able to cast izzet charm to loot at instant speed is a BIG game, when playing against people who haven't identified what you are on yet. Also (and this certainly comes up) having a loot effect that gets around chalice on one can be pretty powerful.
The mana may appear bad, but it's actually not as bad as you'd think just looking at it. We're talking about a deck that plays brainstorm and fetchlands, the red splash is for literally three cards in the main, which can be shuffled away. We aren't trying to cast tons of red spells, it's really just one or two per game, and they (izzet charms) have, in my experience, been fantastic. The fetchbase is set up in such a way that every fetch finds every fetchable land, and it is possible (easily) to have two lands that can cast both decay and izzet charm.
What I really want to say is, if you haven't tried a list like this before, try it. It plays bit differently than the traditional lists but I, for one, prefer the versatility and consistency of this list to the explosiveness and hyper-linearity of the lotus petal builds.
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryfo
Do you recommend a bayou or an island over a trop? Or would the trop be the far better choice
I believe the best mana base for my build includes two trops and two badlands, this is the only combination (without using a taiga) that casts both izzet charm and abrupt decay. the mana can work in a variety of configurations, but the one I played is what I found to be the best by a fairly wide margin.
Hey Stryfo, I haven't tried Archetype of Endurance, I can't see how it can be that good against DnT but well, I'll take you guys word. However, DnT is absolutely non-existent in my meta. Considering this, would you put it MD? What creature would you put MD if you are certain that you will face miracles in 2 out of 4 rounds? Aetherling comes to mind, or maybe just Grave Titan.
I'm going to slowly acquire the badlands and the trops and give your list a try. (Do you think you can make it work with a Bayou and a Volc)?
I really like the idea of parting Daze and Lotus Petal, but I don't know, I've stolen sooo many games with my Show and Tells... :(
It can work with a bayou and volc, indeed my first list had one of each of the off-color duals (non-taiga) I just believe it to be better with the mana base I used at the gp. I would keep archetype as it also has utility against miracles (Iona white plus archetype locks them out of the game). If you like show and tell, feel free to play it, I'm sure it's fine in the right meta. That said, I don't personally like running SnT for various reasons, each of which is actually more prevalent with the banning of DTT than less. (The more kotr, for example, in the meta, the less I want to be playing show and tell over echoing truth or decay, for example.)
When I can find time, and if there is interest, I can try to record some matches against DnT and other problem matchups on modo. My modo list is similar to my paper list, just without jace or misdirections. Let me know if this is something you guys would be interested in and what matchups I should try to record.
Put that GP money to good use! (when it comes) Buy some misdirections online!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryfo
hey stryfo -Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryfo
i play a lot of legacy, and am also interested in your decklist. i have most of the decks on modo, and would be more than happy to test vs you. oddly enough i don't have reanimator cards on modo, so can't do a mirror match. i think most of the other decks are around elves is another i can't built, but all the typical blue decks + dredge + storm + dnt etc.
i use the accounts
swampritualnegator
njmagic
-Rob
I have just one question. Why play the Sphinx at all? Is it really worth boarding in? I mean, maybe Jund, but isn't Griselbrand sufficient? I understand Delver also, but if it's BUG or RUG, it's not like they can kill Griselbrand anyway. I don't understand playing him, but not Sire of Insanity. Can you explain why?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
i haven't tested the card myself, but i think just by looking at the card and seeing his mention of the delver matchup, you have a creature that won't trade with goyf + bolt, you can race + still block, it also pitches to force, one thing that griselbrand isn't great for is attacking into a delver (and then they bolt their delver before damage)Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
sire doesn't help when they have some board developed already, delver can play off the top of deck a lot better than other decks if it has 2-3 lands out.
I obviously didn't mean you should play Sire in the Delver matchup, I only meant that it seems more reasonable to slap Sire in sphinx's spot.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Sire is significantly worse in decks that don't play lotus petal. It's an effect I have tried and was not a fan of. Sphinx on the other hand is actually pretty much unbeatable against delver, where griselbrand can, in some situations be raced. The point of having creatures in the board is to have enough creatures in whatever matchup you are paired against, Sphinx is there to give a 6th bomb creature in the delver matchups, where tidespout and archetype belong on the bench. Sire could come in against a number of decks, certainly, but all of those matchups already have 6 or more game ending threats.
I do agree with your assessment of Sire being bad in petalless builds, also Show and Tell becomes worse since a T3 show and tell is less devastating vs a turn 2. Hell Sire is bad even after turn 2, it's bad when you sire against ANT but they still manage to infernal tutor into a COV. Maybe I'm overthinking the Ubiquity of Delver, but wouldn't Sphinx benefit more from being mainboarded?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stryfo
Also, after all your testing what turn did you find yourself going off the most?