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Hi all
Been reading this thread for a while and i'd like your thoughts on a card that i think could be interesting. Of course it won't make Pox the next DTB but i'm surprised this card hasen't been discussed here :
Viscera Dragger
Can be discarded when poxing, and unearth mechanic makes it kick for 3… Plus the cycling bringing card quality in topdeck mode
Its CC of 4 means that you will rarely manage to cast it, and even in that case it's only a vanilla 3/3 that can esily be dealt with. It can come back from the graveyard, which is nice, but only once, while nether spirit continue to come back, acting as a perpetual blocker and possibly also as a finisher.Quote:
Originally Posted by djeyjey
Thx for your answer…Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthuloo
I did not actually intend to
1/ cast it
2/ replace nether spirit
I just thought of it as a card quality engine via Cycling with Unearth as a bonus, and wondered if it was worth including it in a Pox deck
I've tried it before in BC's the Rat Pack as it can be reanimated by balthor, cycled, unearthed and flashback therapy, but even then in the end it didn't make the cut. Nether Spirit and Bloodghast are superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by djeyjey
Jitte is a problem. We can hope to keep them off creatures to equip, but a loaded jitte is hard to beat for any deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Vial really isn't the problem you guys are making it out to be. Pox doesn't care if you are vialing in guys instead of playing them, it might help them get around the LD aspect of the deck, but it only makes our discard worse for them. Vial and Standstill are obviously good but its a two card combo...
Standstill. I've always thought of it as a two mana draw 3 spell or draw 3 discard 2 spell, since the card's best effect is the psychological effect it has on players not wanting to break it. That said if you don't have any way around standstill, break it. Ideally at the end of their turn when they have 7 cards in hand already. Otherwise if you are playing a list similar to the one I am, some tips to playing vs. standstill with pox.
Tips to playing vs. a resolved standstill.
Their Board = >1 aether vial, standstil: Crack (they got the nuts and you will never get them to crack their own standstill here)
Their Board = < standstill, creature/and or mutavault : Don't crack (Merfolk generally plays 4 wastelands and 4 mutavaults, where as we generally play 4 wasteland and 3-4 mishra's factories. If your opponent just played a standstill on the back of mutavault and/or 1 creature, we have a good chance to force the opponent to crack his own standstill.)
*If you are playing bloodghast, he can be discarded at EOT then played next turn from the graveyard by dropping a land under a standstill.
*Factories beat mutavaults. They can block as a 3/3 alone, mutavaults are always 2/2 without a lord.
*its the right play to waste their wasteland before you drop a factory. They are running at least as many wastelands as you are factories so you can't just run them into wastelands and let the mutavaults own you.
*Crucible of worlds is obviously really good. Bringing back a factory or a cabal pit each turn is really really good. I can't beleive someone said this is card disadvantage.
I have been playing this deck for years. I'm by no means a pro or even a close but I know the decks I play and I can tell who has experience actually playing this deck (Clark Kant, Cthuloo, Jon Stewart, Mystic Jackass, Adrolestolone, and even newcomer Doombear is bringing some good ideas) and some who are just trying to comment based on predictions or theory. Pox is without a doubt my favoirite out of 10+ decks I own. When I bring my decks to the card shop, many of my friends ask if they can sit in the drivers seat and pilot it against their friends deck because they think it is so strong. It's pimped out with korean dark rituals, russian smallpoxes, japanese crucibles, ect. It's really fun, really mean, and it just works. I can't count the number of times I have left my opponent with absolutley nothing (no cards in hand, no perms) and myself with lands, creatures and spells in hand. Looking at the list it might be hard to figure out how that is possible, but the people who actually play the deck know.
So why isn't the deck tier 1? if it is so good?
A short answer is basically because it has a hard time against swarms and burn. Dedicated aggro strategies like zoo, goblins, .. elves.. are hard to overcome. That said, I don't have extensive testing experience so maybe someone can chime in.
You realize I have top 8'd with pox while most of these guys haven't. But whatever. I guess Im just making comments based on predictions or theory.Quote:
(Clark Kant, Cthuloo, Jon Stewart, Mystic Jackass, Adrolestolone, and even newcomer Doombear is bringing some good ideas) and some who are just trying to comment based on predictions or theory.
To be honest when I see your avatar I think of the thread you made about the orb lockdown deck, I can't remember any posts you made about pox. If you made top 8 with the deck, good on you. Did you write a tournament report or can you link the list you played?Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
btw: There are of course other people in the thread that are contribuiting but I only included the most recent and fresh in my mind. Simply saying a deck is a problem without really explaining why doesn't count as bringing something to the table. You just said Jitte, Standstill, and Vial are all good cards pox doesn't have answers to. So that makes it a bad matchup? Tombstalker, netherspirit, bloodghast, crucible, ect, are all cards mono-blue mefolk dont have 'answers' to.
I'm not trying to insult anyone or be a prick but just saying X deck is an uphill battle and not giving solid reasons, then claiming you are reputable because you top 8'd with pox yet still not making points isn't constructive, posting the list, explaining why you had trouble against merfolk would be much better.
Cheers man and hope you can contribute your experience to the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djeyjey
It still seems weak to me, to be honest. It's a not exctiting beater with not exciting card quality attached; I think the deck needs more focused cards. I've not tested it, so I might be wrong of course. Maybe it's abusable in some shell when you cycle him, get him back via unheart, swing, and sack it to cabal therapy, but even in this case probably bloodghast looks better.
@ The whole merfolk thing: I don't know what more to say, I finished my "generic suggestions". If someone who is having problems with the deck wants to analyze the matchup in greater detail, I'll be glad to contribute again.
For everyone else who still plays The Rack:
I tried different constant discard
Raven's Crime (too slow)
Sceptre of Fugue (too slow/weak)
Necrogen Mist (too symmetrical for the effect)
Bottomless Pit (great, but conflicts with Tombstalker)
now I'm testing Unburden! And it works great so far as a whole playset. It is not really constant discard, but it causes much card advantage / damage from the Rack when needed and cycles otherwise.
Wrench Mind seems way better than Unburden.
I know that cycling looks interesting, but that extra mana can be a pain in the ass I guess...
I played Wrench Mind but it was just a bad Hymn. And it sucked while both players are in topdeckmode without a Rack on the table. Unburden gives you the choice at that point. You are right to be careful about the cc=3 slot, but I am playing a version without crucible.
I'm currently working with this list:
Creatures
2 Tombstalker
4 Bloodghast
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
Spells
4 The Rack
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
2 Doom Blade
4 Unburden
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Funeral Charm
2 Executioner's Capsule OR 2 Innocent Blood (testing)
Lands
16 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Instead of going ad-hominem against those who disagree with you, maybe you could consider the ever-so-small possibility that you're not right ?Quote:
Originally Posted by slylie
For ref, I used to play Pox quite a bit.
I stopped doing so when the format became faster and more aggro, which made Pox weaker.
Others, like you, chose to continue by ditching Pox for Smallpox and trying to maximize disruption.
I didn't go that way because I don't believe in the double-prong (sp.?) approach of LD+discard and because it leads to poorer CA (including battlefield), which is what Pox used to bet on.
Because I chose not to go with Smallpox and the LD+discard approach doesn't mean I don't understand it.
It just means that I disagree with it being good enough when Gobs, Zoo and Merfolk are rife.
We agree on that.Quote:
So why isn't the deck tier 1? if it is so good?
A short answer is basically because it has a hard time against swarms and burn. Dedicated aggro strategies like zoo, goblins, .. elves.. are hard to overcome. That said, I don't have extensive testing experience so maybe someone can chime in.
Now, consider this : isn't Merfolk a swarm strategy, slower than others but backed-up with tempo-efficient counters ?
I'm not looking for conflict.
I'm just underlining why I disagree with your view on the Merfolk matchup.
If you want to do well with Pox, like any other deck, you need to be aware of its weaknesses as well as its strengths.
By the way :
- I think that Culling Scales is a good idea to work on : it creates CA and tempo stem against aggro. Well, it would even more if people still played Maze of Ith...
- why is no-one playing Inquisition of Kozilek ? It's a card that does exactly what Pox wants : reduce the quality of the first turns of the opponent. FoW isn't a big problem for this deck.
@Slylie
I'm sorry, but you did a couple things that I'm going to have to call you out on:
Not mentioning Clavio on that list,
Calling Merfolk easy,
and alienating everyone else who has contributed to pox.
Also, Clavio posted on this thread a while before you did.
Cracking standstill isn't as simple as a little calculation. In fact, it normally depends on how good you are at drawing poxes. If you can resolve a game-breaking spell through standstill (pox) or have a suitably efficient discard spell in your hand, you have no need to worry. Mindstab, Hymn, or even any mass creature removal (if they have many) are great ways to break standstill. Standstills broken early cause Poxes to be even more effective later.
@Puzzle
If you drop LD (which is an option) you can't drop Discard (not ever an option, just don't drop it) as well.
That said, dropping LD will necessitate you get more discard and removal, and increase the quality to boot.
Pox is good in that as a deck, it can run the best removal, discard, and LD cards in black. This makes it harder to play when you choose to abandon one of the center points as you go into sub-optimality.
My testing of death's shadow:
Definitely a keeper.
It has won me games I really shouldn't have won. I think it works very nicely with the main goal of pox. Run cards that work in a very broad range of scenarios, causing hurt to both sides (Pox/Smallpox/Hymn to Tourach) with cards that work only in certain contexts. The narrower cards are what lets us win games that pox/smallpox/sinkhole wouldn't win on their own. They include Wasteland (useless against monocolor) Creature Removal (useless against control that drops maybe 1-2 creatures a game) and targeted discard (useless against Lands/Ichorid, and slightly less useful if they have brainstorm). While death's shadow is a bit more narrow, running 1 copy allows us to not worry about obsolete-ing our finishers as a whole, the legendary effect, and moat.
I recall that people brought up Noetic Scales in the deck and it was quickly dismissed.
But I played against a pox deck with Noetic Scales, with various decks of mine, and let me tell you that card is a huge pain in the ass.
It single handedly slaughters my reanimator deck when it resolves. It slaughers Progenitus, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, and every other creature in the format when combined with some discard. Players are too busy answering Smallpox and Pox effects, that by the time a Noetic Scales hits the board, they're run out ways to answer it or deal with it.
It doesn't seem like it's very difficult for Pox to get to four mana. It's a slow deck, it plays tons of lands, and it plays Phyrexian Totem, so getting four mana shouldn't be a big deal for the deck at all.
I agree up to here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bowvamp
Here is where I disagree : for me, sub-optimality comes when you try to do too many things at once and end up doing none of them right :Quote:
Pox is good in that as a deck, it can run the best removal, discard, and LD cards in black. This makes it harder to play when you choose to abandon one of the center points as you go into sub-optimality.
- 12 LD elements mean destroying about 2 lands per game : rarely worth the mana and card expense.
- Discard without CA only works if you can put pressure quickly enough : not Pox's case. (*)
- Raven's Crime, Smallpox and others that let the opponent decide do not really disrupt their game enough.
(*) that's not to say that discard shouldn't be played but that there needs to be a kill-strategy behind it and that the discard choices match that strategy.
You also take the risk of drawing into the wrong strategy in given games, which lowers your chances to do well in a tournament.
I should add that in a meta as fast as today's, LD doesn't feel like the right strategy.
Sinkhole was already not good enough years at the time of non-Instigator gobs and no-Zoo, I doubt it's doing much more good today.
I agree with leaning heavier on discard that produces card advantage, ala Hymn, and Pox (when timed properly).
But other than those two, what are the options as far as discard that produces card advantage are concerned? Wrench Mind?
I do think Noetic Scales is very abusable in the current meta, esp when paired with discard.
Worth testing imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Phyrexian Totem did change the setting and I don't know of anyone giving Noetic Scales another try since.
Regarding heavy discard, Delirium Skeins seems silly but could be worth looking into with Tombstalker, Bloodghast, Nether Spirit and/or Noetic Scales.
Noetic Scales is indeed very strong, I played it in other Black Control Decks. But it requires a source of constant discard and in "Pox" the mana cost is quite difficult. Maybe it is playable in a version with Mox Diamond (+ Crucible?) and Phyrexian Totem.
It doesn't require a source of constant discard. Most aggro decks play far bigger creatures than their hand. They playing 5/6 goyfs, 5/5 tombstalkers, even 3/3 Wild nacatls are too big to stick in an aggressive deck that gets hit with Hymn and/or Pox even once. Noetic Scales aren't ideal against goblins probably, but against all the aggro control decks running around, and stuff like NO and Reanimator, it seems more than ideal.
I just wish there was a way Pox could function and win without creatures at all, so that it could abuse both Ensnaring Bridge and Noetic Scales.
@Noetic Scales/Ensaring Bridge:
Meekstone much?
Also as an aside, I just met someone on mws who strongly believed that ALL blue decks had to run stifle md. He also cited zoo as a good place to board in engineering plague. Lol.
@Unfocused Lists:
LD helps to keep cards in their hands long enough for you to discard them. LD isn't worth the mana and card expense? orly? It's not only 1-1 in card expense, it also allows us to beat out those annoying aggro strategies by manascrewing them.
Discard w/o card advantage isn't actually very good. I only run 6 cards like that md (including smallpox).
I might seem like a bit of an annoyance, but I will say once again, Mindstab is +2 card advantage.
Drawing into the wrong strategy is impossible with strategies that cover the entire format. What decks don't draw 7 cards at the start of every game, and what decks don't run a single land?
I may as well post an update on my list:
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra's Factory
15 Swamp
3 Tombstalker
1 Necroplasm
1 Death's Shadow
1 Nihilith
4 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mindstab
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sun Droplet
4 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Sun Droplet
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Do or Die
Things this list does differently:
--Duress SB for combo
--Disfigure vs Innocent Blood for 1 way removal plus more mana turn 2 in case of turn 1 creature
--Mindstab is still going strong netting me a solid +2 Card Advantage most games
--25 lands allows me to count on land drops alot like landstill can.
--Death's Shadow and Sun Droplet rocks against aggro.