[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waSP

Depending on how quickly they Reverent Silence away your enchantments. What you end up with is a board of you with some number of lands and a hand full of gas. Them with a Mox Diamond. The bigger fear is that you can't bounce their creatures in time and you're just stalling with a Confinement and they Reverent Silence and swing for lethal. I think Chalice is one of our better weapons against Loam.

There's nothing wrong with playing Sanctum if you're playing duals. You're going to be somewhat susceptible to Wastelands anyway. You could possibly run an all basics version (in fact, I could send you an interesting decklist along those lines), but it may not be as consistent or fast.

---

I'm not arguing about whether or not you're still ahead after they Silence. The point is that you could have won by now, but you instead settled for a lock that is definitely disruptable. The match is already in our favor because none of their creatures get past moat, ground seal turns off their engine.

I'm also not saying there's something wrong with playing Sanctum with or without duals. I'm saying a game plan that focuses around finding and protecting a Sanctum isn't worth it (via Living Wish, cards like Trace)

Words of War requires you to replace 10 draws to win. If you can afford to waste 10 draws on Words of War, you'll have won with Words of Wind, easily. I can't think of a deck that will play more than 10 permanents.

You don't play Trace to protect Serra's Sanctum. You play it because it's often a better option than Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl (or Fertile Ground for that matter). Serra's Sanctum is a card that has a lot of synergy with the deck and is improved by Trace.

I think there are 2 kinds of people who play this deck:
1: Those who are interested in the bomb-y answers that you can play. (people who love Moat or Runed Halo)
2: Those who are interested in the ways the cards in the deck interact. (people who love Energy Field or Wheel of Sun and Moon or Words of Wind)

And of course there are people in both camps to an extent. But the people in 1 and 2 have trouble talking to each other about card choices because there is a fundamental difference in the way they play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waSP

Words of War requires you to replace 10 draws to win. If you can afford to waste 10 draws on Words of War, you'll have won with Words of Wind, easily. I can't think of a deck that will play more than 10 permanents.

---

Is it me, or is there something really wrong with your statement?

10 replaced draws with words of war outright wins you the game, I don't see this happening when playing words of wind.

This deck already has trouble enough with the clock if your opponent doesn't concede, so you really do need a fast win when it comes to it, not something that might just lock your opponent out.

Also, this deck can be pretty nerve-wrecking to pilot in lets say a 9 round tournament, so getting enough time between rounds to rest a bit (or eat and drink for that mater) would do good for your performance in the later rounds (or the T8 for that matter).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by overseer1234

Is it me, or is there something really wrong with your statement?

10 replaced draws with words of war outright wins you the game, I don't see this happening when playing words of wind.

---

It's you. 10 replaced draws is an outright win with Words of Wind (note that the WoWind replacement draws typically generate additional draws or mana, so you'll get to 10 a bit earlier).

If you're concerned about fatigue, making your deck easier to play may be a good choice for you. This won't be the case for everyone else, though, so keep that in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waSP

It's you. 10 replaced draws is an outright win with Words of Wind

---

Um, no its not. You might have bounced all there permanents, but that's not the same as winning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xero

Um, no its not. You might have bounced all there permanents, but that's not the same as winning.

---

Actually once you've bounced the board, you are omnipotent, can fetch ur solutions, protections, and kill in the same turn, so basically, u win...

I used to AGONIZE over the one turn delay in winning. This was when I was running a wish build. I would agonize over it so much so that I decided to run Dimir Guildmage in my sideboard so that I could win on the same turn (wish target that would win or maybe do something obnoxious if I had too much mana and no gas). I found it completely unnecessary. You will draw maybe 1 game ever from not being able to win on this turn instead of next turn.

My old favorite, when Dragon was popular for a little bit, was running double Gaea's Blessing and Psionic Blast (pre-Wheel of Sun and Moon) for the kill. Early game, you could burn out some fat and slow down the clock.

Anyway, Words of War will only kill in 1 turn if you have an absolutely absurd board position (at least 3 Enchantresses and plenty of gas and ridiculous mana, a point you'll get to faster with a WoWind build). Otherwise, you're spacing it out over 2-4 turns. Let's put that fallacious argument to bed now.

They're the same exact card except that Words of Wind requires an extra slot (the actual kill condition).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

They're the same exact card except that Words of Wind requires an extra slot (the actual kill condition).

---

thats really not fair, they fill two different roles. words of wind is a heavy control element; words of war has only a minimal effect on the board. you want to play words of war when you already control the board and need to finally do 20 damage. words of wind actually helps you gain control of the board by slowing the enemy's game plan. the only similarity between the two cards is the card-skipping mechanic, they do not accomplish the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by waSP

I used to AGONIZE over the one turn delay in winning. This was when I was running a wish build. I would agonize over it so much so that I decided to run Dimir Guildmage in my sideboard so that I could win on the same turn (wish target that would win or maybe do something obnoxious if I had too much mana and no gas). I found it completely unnecessary. You will draw maybe 1 game ever from not being able to win on this turn instead of next turn.

My old favorite, when Dragon was popular for a little bit, was running double Gaea's Blessing and Psionic Blast (pre-Wheel of Sun and Moon) for the kill. Early game, you could burn out some fat and slow down the clock.

Anyway, Words of War will only kill in 1 turn if you have an absolutely absurd board position (at least 3 Enchantresses and plenty of gas and ridiculous mana, a point you'll get to faster with a WoWind build). Otherwise, you're spacing it out over 2-4 turns. Let's put that fallacious argument to bed now.

---

If you wanna win, the turn you lay down your win condition just play Cadaverous Bloom and Tendrils of Agony. You only need like 2-3 Enchantress Effects when you lay down Cadaverous Bloom. Then hope for the opponent not to counter/disenchant it and win the game, by gettin an enormous amount of mana out of it. Sooner or later you will draw Tendrils and win the game with it.

Enchantress with words of wind is an old concept: look at the list that Gab Nassif played at the Masters (old extended with tempest block) reaching the finals and loosing to Bob Maher's Tinker. :eek:

that was a very different concept: the deck was intended to combo out very fast with land-untap effects (cloud of faeries - frantic search) and draw his deck as early as turn four.

I think that words of wind fits well in that concept of deck. In nowadays solitaire enchantress is just a different - and weaker - confinement.:frown:

The unavailability of Frantic Search makes the comparison inapt.

Words of Wind can be used as a board control element or a combo element. It is not there to replace Solitary Confinement. It may improve it, allowing you to continue to draw cards even if you miss out on some gas, but it does not replace it. It is ultimately a cog in the deck, satisfying several roles, while playing nicely with other cards (Sylvan Library, Wild Growth, Exploration, Serra's Sanctum, Ground Seal).

I really think that the reluctance to accept WoWind as a viable choice by some of the posters on this forum has to do with play style (and grander conceptions of the deck as a whole). Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savo

Enchantress with words of wind is an old concept: look at the list that Gab Nassif played at the Masters (old extended with tempest block) reaching the finals and loosing to Bob Maher's Tinker. :eek:

that was a very different concept: the deck was intended to combo out very fast with land-untap effects (cloud of faeries - frantic search) and draw his deck as early as turn four.

I think that words of wind fits well in that concept of deck. In nowadays solitaire enchantress is just a different - and weaker - confinement.:frown:

---

Perhaps enchantress needs to evolve back into the combo version with blue. It offers us a better chance against combo and, while we lose the really good bomb lock pieces (moat, confinement) you gain the ability to kill incredibly fast. Thoughts?


// Lands
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
7 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Island
4 [A] Tropical Island

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
3 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
3 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
3 [ON] Words of Wind
4 [US] Exploration
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [A] Wild Growth
4 [JU] Living Wish
4 [LRW] Fertile Ground
1 [US] Stroke of Genius
2 [IN] Sterling Grove

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow

snip

---

No. This is a bad idea because this "combo" deck is strictly worse than any other dedicated combo deck out there.

Think about it; why bother trying to get an Enchantress into play, protect it, play a bunch of other card, etc etc etc when you can just go nuts with Dredge or Bryant Cook's whatever.

There is no reason to run any version of Enchantress combo, its just not viable.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Enchantress deck as a whole is getting worse and worse as time goes on. Decks that once feared this deck are getting more and more tools to push through the last points of damage while this deck is getting diddly squat as time goes on. It really needs a new draw effect or a new card out of nowhere to really get going, if not, this deck (which is already tier 2 at best) will just get worst.

maybe this deck needs to shoehorn in Tarmogoyf....

it is running green after all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

maybe this deck needs to shoehorn in Tarmogoyf....

it is running green after all

---

Not to single you out, but the fact that people consider this is paramount to how bad Enchantress is at the moment.

Unless your metagame is Italy or just really suited to being shut out to Confinement, don't play Enchantress, its not the deck to play.

It can't even really beat Zoo or Threshold as often as you'd think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meister_Kai

No. This is a bad idea because this "combo" deck is strictly worse than any other dedicated combo deck out there.

Think about it; why bother trying to get an Enchantress into play, protect it, play a bunch of other card, etc etc etc when you can just go nuts with Dredge or Bryant Cook's whatever.

There is no reason to run any version of Enchantress combo, its just not viable.
.

---

I totally agree. Enchantress comboes out on turn 4, while Dredge and ANT as early as turn...one.

I tried Words of Wind. I want to explain why it seemed similar to Confinement to me: 1 it's useful only with enchantress effects in play 2 it's a way to take your opponent out of the game, as confinement is.
and... confinement is better and faster both considering point 1 and point 2. :frown:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Savo

I totally agree. Enchantress comboes out on turn 4, while Dredge and ANT as early as turn...one.

I tried Words of Wind. I want to explain why it seemed similar to Confinement to me: 1 it's useful only with enchantress effects in play 2 it's a way to take your opponent out of the game, as confinement is.
and... confinement is better and faster both considering point 1 and point 2. :frown:

---

Enchantress isn't really a combo deck, at least not in the same sense as decks like ANT. I would describe it as an unconventional mid-range deck. It's unconventional because it doesn't use creature spells that beat down (although it can use tokens). The deck it has most in common with is Survival Advantage. Both decks are midrange, rely on tutors, and can generate lots of mana and card advantage. Both decks take a while to "go off." SA uses a bunch of creature spells and Enchantress uses a bunch of enchantment spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Justin

Enchantress isn't really a combo deck, at least not in the same sense as decks like ANT. I would describe it as an unconventional mid-range deck. It's unconventional because it doesn't use creature spells that beat down (although it can use tokens). The deck it has most in common with is Survival Advantage. Both decks are midrange, rely on tutors, and can generate lots of mana and card advantage. Both decks take a while to "go off." SA uses a bunch of creature spells and Enchantress uses a bunch of enchantment spells.

---

Exactly. The combo version would be the one with untap effects, which is not viable to me at all as I said. :wink:

I see enchantress as a control deck, but with a combo control element. what i mean by this is that all of the early effects that enchantress throws down are individually nonthreatening, but 2-3 board effects can dramatically limit the opponent's options due to synergy. This does not out-right win the game, but it does prevent losing, for the most part.

((EDIT: Something I'd like to add is that enchantress's pacing is like a control deck, but its thought process is much more combo oriented. Enchantress isn't doing anything dangerous turn 1 or 2, but at every step it is thinking about enchantments in hand, draws available, # of enchantress effects online... all of these are more similar to a storm deck calculating mana, color sources, storm, and draws then it is to most control decks evaluating opposing threats while generating tempo or card advantage.))

The best analogy I can think of is to the Life cleric-combo decks; both decks attempt to have a consistent ability to nullify incoming damage, thus invalidating the opposing deck's strategy. Solitary confinement is more fragile than arbitrarily large life (tranquility is bad news), but it also protects from most milling strategies.

I strongly suggest that players reevaluate running less than four solitary confinements in enchantress. Drawing a confinement is much better than tutoring for one, and drawing more than one has not been detrimental during my testing. Unless you are facing a deck capable of bolt/bolt/fireblast, then saccing one confinement during upkeep to hit your draw step and then play another confinement is +2 cards at minimal risk, and should draw you at least one card for being another enchantment. Oftentimes I find myself facing strong early pressure and having to chain confinements together with replenishes to maintain a wall against agro in zerg mode. I don't see a deck with only 2 confinements doing this as reliably, as you can't always have 2 enchantress effects, grove, grove, confinement out every game.

I posted my list earlier, you can ignore the land-base if you want as I have an unnatural fear of wasteland. the important aspect is the 4 confinement/4 sterling grove/1 enlightened tutor package. I'm considering another enlightened tutor, but I like the enchantment density where it currently is.