[ATW] Landstill

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Originally Posted by Mental

The problem with E. Tutor is that it is card disadvantage. Landstill is a deck that seeks to win the long game through attrition wars, not seal the short game quickly with a Moat (which is shit postboard, btw), and E. Tutor counteracts from that goal. I wouldn't run more than 2 at most.

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I see your point in that e.tutor creates card disadvantage but there are many situations where the quality you get from the tutor pays for the draw loss at different stages of the game:
e.g
you can fetch standstill once the board is clear at the end of opponent's turn-- creating card advantage from the initial drawback
searching explosives/seal of cleasing in response to oponents chalice/moon/vial.
searching the components of the counterbalance lock (notice top will create more card quality)
or having access to crucible for recurring wastelands if the opp is low on mana.

+ the sideboard options which can turn the match-up completely in your favor

the versatility of tutor is often worth the disadvantege it creates. Moreover, landstill is the deck that is capable to support this type of card since it is able of creating card advantage trhough the standstill and cantrips

In your experiance, does Counterbalance work in Landstill? I think not. You run too many lands.

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Originally Posted by Ironstickman

I see your point in that e.tutor creates card disadvantage but there are many situations where the quality you get from the tutor pays for the draw loss at different stages of the game

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Agreed.

I was skeptical of E Tutor as a wish target, but it really is very solid. It's another wish target answer. It allows you to grab Humility in a pinch, which is really the game plan vs alot of the field. 2 Humility and 2 Wish gives you 4 cards you can draw that can set up Humility either that turn or the following in the case of Wish>Tutor>Humility. Grabbing an Engineered Explosives, a Standstill or Crucible can also be clutch, though much less often than Humility.

I've been playing around with a modified version of D I F's build and have been very pleased. For reference:

Lands 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Spells 35
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard 15
4 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Engineered Plague
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Dismantilling Blow/Return to Dust

To preemptively head off the question of 3 Plains, I think that Basic Plains is pretty huge to this shell as hitting Humility / Wrath turn 4 is often gigantic. Also Basic Island, Basic Plains, non-basic allows for EE@3 against Magus of Moon and Blood Moon, MA has a fairly large amount of Dragon Stompy in the meta. Being Basic heavy also helps versus Goblins that have been making a pretty big come back in the area.

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Originally Posted by Mental

In your experiance, does Counterbalance work in Landstill? I think not. You run too many lands.

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well, yes that's why I was trying a build low on mana compared with other landstill decks (23 lands)
the main problem running counterbalance in landstill decks is that your mana costs are usually higher. Therefore I tried to reduce the cost of the spells to one or two. (taking out fact or fiction,disks,ak.vengeance, decrees, humility and other heavy stuff)
the library manipulation through top /brainstorm/ tutor (+ fethcland shuffle) once the counterbalance is in play I have found to be effective enough.

the counterbalance-top lock gives massive advantage against threshold, eva green, burn, RG goyf, mirror, deadguy and ends combo matchups . whereas in matchups like goblins,dragon stompy or white stax doesn`t really shine.

So is counterbalance good in landstill? depends in what you're playing against.
Is landstill capable of supporting counterbalance? yes but with important modifications from the original U/W build.

What about a 1 of mystical tutor as a 1 of in the sb for random LFTL or swords or counterspell or force or w.e
it'd improve all of your matchups.

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Originally Posted by Mental

In your experiance, does Counterbalance work in Landstill? I think not. You run too many lands.

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Maybe, but Counterbalance allows you to lockdown your opponent under Moat (Zvi's version) or Humility (better IMO. And easier to afford.).

Counterbalance is the reason why those "clunky" versions like Zvi's build with 4 E-Tutors can still compete with the field since the disadvantage of E.Tutor is compensated by Standstills/Balance-Engine.

Notice that this is again nearly the same concept like in Baseruption, ayB's NQS and UR Landstill: We take Carddisadvantage to gain speed/flexibility and then we compensate it afterwars with Standstill/Balance/Shadowmages/Confidants/Survivalengine/whatsoever.

Your argument of running tons of lands might be right, but when running 4 E-Tutors, 4 Counterbalances and 4 Sensei's Divining Tops, the odds are very high that you can get a Counterbalance online, turning your 4 Brainstorms and 4 Enlightened Tutor into hardcounters.

Though I don't really like his build like it is, Zvi Mowshowitz himself played a 7-1 record afaik at the Worlds. That Ch@os guy here also plays that style of landstills and also T8ed in iserlohn several times I think. Maybe I'm just getting him wrong with someone, but I'm quite sure it's him. I played it once against Clemens and got defeated by Siege Gang Commander. Since then I would always play Humility over Moat and include Decree of Justice.

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Originally Posted by Adan

That Ch@os guy here also plays that style of landstills and also T8ed in iserlohn several times I think. Maybe I'm just getting him wrong with someone, but I'm quite sure it's him.

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:wink:, mostly "Dülmen" but yeah i T8 with this Deck.

And it's exactly like you guys have mentioned, CA is not such a big thing when you can search for Moat/Humility eot. Or fix the lack of one CB&T combo piece. Lategame E-Tutor functions as an really good hardcounter Counter for CC1,2,3,4.

And the Tutor-SB works also for me, but the whole Deck is a little bit different from the usually landstill playstyle, but give it a try.

It's a little late now for a warning now, but this thread is (or at least was) an eyesore. A few pages back, there are some flames; we have members not using simple typing conventions like the SHIFT KEY; and we have been getting complaints about the general lack of direction of this thread.

I have opened a suggestion thread for what to do with Landstill discussion. We would like to here your thoughts on how to better address all the variants of Landstill.

In the meantime, this thread is watched.

Hi

I need help with my 4c Landstill

My metagame is:
-********
-UBg(Confidant, goyf, trinket, dreadnought)
-Burn(lol!)
-Goblin
-Iggy Pop
-Dragon Stompy
-2 Land Belcher

My list is:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical island
2 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Treetop Village
//24

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact of Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Innocent Blood
2 Disenchant / Nevinyrrals disk / Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
//36


//Side
4 Duress
4 Chill
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
1 Hydroblast



Suggestions?

thx

There's no reason to run Wasteland in that metagame. There's really no reason to run Wasteland in 4C period, but especially not when nothing else you listed runs a manland. And your manabase is atrocious.

If you keep the basic Plains, which isn't an awful idea anymore, Seal of Cleansing >> Disenchant/Disk/Explosives. Seal will come out pre-emptively to hit Blood Moon in DS and Counterbalance in Threshold. It'll take down Dreadnought in that UBG list, Vial against Goblins, and it might even steal you a game against Belcher if you're lucky, though on the whole EE's stronger against Belcher.

Innocent Blood is bad, also. Diabolic Edict is better. Edict dodges Chalice for 1, which will make huge differences against Dragon Stompy. Also, despite the fact you might think Blood's better against Goblins for stopping a Lackey, it isn't. Edict's ability to stop a hasted Warchief assault makes it stronger against Goblins. Edict also lets you clear a threat EOT to give you a clear board to drop a Standstill.

As for your sideboard, ditch Duress and ditch Chill. Running 4 Blue Elemental Blasts will help you against Goblins, Burn, Belcher, and Dragon Stompy, and a couple of Circle of Protection: Red will help you against all of those except Belcher. Meddling Mage will help you greatly against IGGY and Belcher, also.

I must suck at playing Landstill but somebody at least explain this:

1. How can you avoid mulliganing allot when you play 6-10 colorless lands and 3-4 colors?
2. I cannot understand how this deck beats a deck like Goblins which runs 7x Land Hate. It is hard to hit 3-4 mana before dying. Or win without Plauge.
3. Exactlly how does this deck apply pressure enough to beat combo?
4. How does this deck not draw out rounds repeatably?

This deck just seem inconsistent to me. My guess is that this is the best deck in the format and it only loses to itself or having a bad pilot.

Just wondering how a player like Geoff S can consistently win with this deck.

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Originally Posted by darkalucard

I must suck at playing Landstill but somebody at least explain this:

1. How can you avoid mulliganing allot when you play 6-10 colorless lands and 3-4 colors?
2. I cannot understand how this deck beats a deck like Goblins which runs 7x Land Hate. It is hard to hit 3-4 mana before dying. Or win without Plauge.
3. Exactlly how does this deck apply pressure enough to beat combo?
4. How does this deck not draw out rounds repeatably?

This deck just seem inconsistent to me. My guess is that this is the best deck in the format and it only loses to itself or having a bad pilot.

Just wondering how a player like Geoff S can consistently win with this deck.

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1. - No Clue. I hate manlands. I guess Standstill, blue source, manland is enough to go with in some matchups. Still need this answered by others.
2. - Goblins is running less mana disruption now. Also, you run stuff like Swords, Deed, Explosives, and some versions run Goyf. Sideboard you should have Bebs.
3. - You have Standstill and they play no permanents (Obv Ichorid eats you). You also have Stifle, Cspell and FoW. You don't need pressure really, you're the control deck.
4 - It does. Control decks do this alot.

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Originally Posted by darkalucard

I must suck at playing Landstill but somebody at least explain this:

1. How can you avoid mulliganing allot when you play 6-10 colorless lands and 3-4 colors?
2. I cannot understand how this deck beats a deck like Goblins which runs 7x Land Hate. It is hard to hit 3-4 mana before dying. Or win without Plauge.
3. Exactlly how does this deck apply pressure enough to beat combo?
4. How does this deck not draw out rounds repeatably?

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1. By playing 6 and not 10. And by running at least 18 blue sources (Counting Fetchlands) and cards like Brainstorm to fix opening hands. It also helps to have builds that rely heavily on blue and less on the splash colors.

2. As for the land hate, most Goblin decks now run a maximum of 6, and a few run as few as four. Stifle will help stop Wasteland, which isn't all that dangerous, but Port's a bitch you'll just have to deal with. Once you've stopped the land hate, you simply out card-advantage them. Counter turn 1-2 Vials, Counter/Stifle Matrons/Ringleaders, and rely on your STP/Edict/Deed/Whatever Else to remove Lackeys/Piledrivers/Chiefs/Siege-Gangs. Then outdraw them with Standstill + Jace/FoF/Whatever. Postboard, Plague helps, as does Blue Elemental Blast. Builds running Humility will find Goblins even easier.

3. What makes you think the deck -needs- to apply pressure to beat combo? If you stop the first, fast onslaught, then you have superior draw and disruption elements to make the midgame in your favor as well. Then you can kill off the opponent at your leisure. Builds with Tarmogoyf attempt to fix this non-problem, but they often sacrifice the disruption that stops the combo in the first place to do it. Meddling Mage in sideboard is excellent at boosting your tempo while shutting down the card of your choice, freeing up your other spells to handle anything else.

4. Experience playing the deck allows you to make quicker correct decisions with ease, and it doesn't hurt to have judges around to watch opponents for slow play, either. Drawing can happen, though. The irritating sanctioned Tie that differentiates my win streak from my not-loss streak came from playing 4C Landstill against Train Wreck, though we still managed to finish two games.

I think it would be easier to explain after he played a few matches with the deck.

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I think it would be easier to explain after he played a few matches with the deck.

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If your refurring to me I played this deck in tournaments Saturday and Sunday doing well with prizes but still upset with the deck.

1. I aggree that you should play 6 colorless sources max.

2.
I understand, I guess my opponents just have draw allot of Wastelands and Ports and I got unlucky drawing lands. And I agree to beat Goblins you need something more permenant like Humility and Plague, sometimes they can survive from multiple board sweeps and you can't draw into standstills.

My main point though, was what do you do against these sort of decks? (With Wastelands etc) Is it basically is pretty bad for me but I'm going to do my best playing around it Stifling and Countering?

3.
In my experiece you need to put a clock on combo or you will let them draw back into there combo after you disrupted it already. Control decks problem is that it doesnt have a clock and lets there opponent outdraw them by giving them to much time. I guess what everyone is saying is that Standstill and other cards give Landstill so much card advantage that you will overwhelm them with answers to there threats?

I think Tarmogoyf is worth a try in this deck:

A. It puts the opponent on a clock.

(Allows faster wins after gaining control. Also allows you to apply pressure without tapping all your lands to attack with Factory's)

B. Makes the deck less dependant on man-lands.

(If Man-Lands get extirpated, what will you do? I just seems that with control decks, there win conditions are there weakness.)

C. Allows the deck to switch roles faster. Is Flexable.

(He holds the ground and can stop a horde from attacking, usually forcing them to play more guys before attacking leaving them overcomitting more than they normallly would for your board sweepers. He's like multiple Fogs that can trade for multiple creatures with the option of attacking. Once you get control, you can just start turning this guy sideways and you will win allot faster than normally.)

etc.

OMG a new guy who hasn't even tested Goyf, but has the common sense enough to predict what he's useful for. And everything he mentioned is exactly what he's useful for.

@darkalucard: Goyf is exactly what you mentioned he would be. There is currently a huge, flame-filled, discussion going on whether Goyf is good in Landstill or not. Since you seem to have a clean slate, please test Goyf and let us know of your findings. Here's a list for reference (my list):

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
3 Fact of Fiction
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered explosives

2 Flex Slot (Stifle/Spell Snare, Smother/Diabolic Edict, anything esle you could want) Currently I'm using LftL and Quagnoth there.

"My main point though, was what do you do against these sort of decks? (With Wastelands etc) Is it basically is pretty bad for me but I'm going to do my best playing around it Stifling and Countering?"

First off your gameplan usually varies per matchup but I can give you some pretty sound advice. Your lands are the most important part of the deck. If you have your landbase built the chances your losing are incredibly low besides for massive mana flood. Realisticly your winning if your land is continuously dropping.

I've done various sorts of testing mainly on GWB Rock and Magic Theory...

But, I'm beginning to realize why this thread has gotten out of hand. There are these card choices like Tarmogoyf that everyone is extensively arguing about and nobody can come to a conclusion on. Maybe they should make threads just for these arguments?

BTW I hope to keep a clean slate in reputation...

The problem is, I'm sure, that most people refuse to test him or don't have a proper testing environment, and just dismiss him because he can be blown up by your own Deed (which almost never happens, by the way), or that "Landstill isn't supposed to play creatures"...which is an equally absurd reason to dismiss him.
The fact is, that in Landstill, Goyf is a very flexible utility creature that helps in many more scenarios than a single card should. People need to break away from conventions and test him out for themselves. For the people who actually have tested him and still prefer not to play him, I guess it's a different play style.
That being said, hopefully everything will be cleared up when the thread splits, and maybe my reputation can move away from Goyf-loving-asshole to just Goyf-lover.

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Originally Posted by darkalucard

2.
I understand, I guess my opponents just have draw allot of Wastelands and Ports and I got unlucky drawing lands. And I agree to beat Goblins you need something more permenant like Humility and Plague, sometimes they can survive from multiple board sweeps and you can't draw into standstills.

My main point though, was what do you do against these sort of decks? (With Wastelands etc) Is it basically is pretty bad for me but I'm going to do my best playing around it Stifling and Countering?

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I can't really say. Perhaps it's because I'm way more experienced with the deck than most people, but I've won my last six matches straight against Goblins with 4C Landstill, dropping only two (Maybe three, memory is foggy) games in that span. I don't run Humility, and I generally run 3 Plague and 4 Blue Elemental Blast in sideboard (And, on a couple occasions, I've run COP: Red as a metagame call.) I just haven't ever found Goblins to be a problematic match unless they run four Ports. And I've seen a lot of people pick up my deck and get stomped by Goblins due to bad choices.

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3.
In my experiece you need to put a clock on combo or you will let them draw back into there combo after you disrupted it already.

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And how exactly are you not going to draw into more disruption during this time considering that's all your deck is? I've beaten Belcher after they went through three separate attempts to combo off.

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I think Tarmogoyf is worth a try in this deck:

A. It puts the opponent on a clock.

(Allows faster wins after gaining control. Also allows you to apply pressure without tapping all your lands to attack with Factory's)

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After you've gained control, why do you need a faster win? You generally aren't going to lose control again unless your deck is diluted with bad control cards like, say, Tarmogoyf.

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B. Makes the deck less dependant on man-lands.

(If Man-Lands get extirpated, what will you do? I just seems that with control decks, there win conditions are there weakness.)

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Win with Jace Beleren (This is exactly why I run him over FoF), Crime//Punishment (Easy to win with once Jace has you with a full hand to your opponent's empty), or Meddling Mage. Alternately, don't swing with your manlands until you have enough control to protect them. Alternately still, Extirpate their Extirpates before they can get more than one thing.

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C. Allows the deck to switch roles faster.

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Why would I want to do that? I'm the control deck, period.