[OLD] UGr Threshold

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Originally Posted by EaD

Well Adan, now i got it.
CB is just sooo good , revealing a swan would counter the humilit, thats of course broken






Not.

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Seriously, learn to argue properly. You are mentioning a point that is another "Pro" for Counterbalance. Having a CC4 spells is good against Landstill since it counters Humilty, Wrath of God and Fact or Fiction, 2 of them being dangerous ones which would break your neck. You are contradicting youself.

Additionally, it wins against the mirrormatch and other random-crap because those decks won't be able to resolve a spell. Meanwhile you simply beat him down with Tarmogoyf.

And you also recorgnized yourself that Counterbalance wins against Goyf Sligh and other decks. It is also better against Survival-builds like Di's (ask him, he says himself that Counterbalance is something Survival can only hardly deal with).

Thx for talkin properly.
of course having a cc4 slot against landstill is quite good as you already mentioned, but the point is still that's it a pretty bad matchup for us and that countering the humility won't win the game instantly.

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Additionally, it wins against the mirrormatch and other random-crap because those decks won't be able to resolve a spell. Meanwhile you simply beat him down with Tarmogoyf.

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That's what CB is supposed to do, but resolving it doesn't mean you won, for instance against sligh.
Just take a look into the goyflsigh thread, P.R. explained few things concerning playing against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh there.

And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

Concerning the Survival Matchup i made very bad expiriences.
I played with the swan list 12 times in like 5 tourneys vs. Survival and lost all, even when i had the cbtop engine out, that makes me think that even with cb, survival remains very bad news for us.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

So you literally replaced the 4 F/I with 4 counterspells and did not change a thing ? I really wonder if you reliaby get UU online.

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I like the switch they I've made here in Syracuse. It could just be the metagame warrants more hard counters than what fire/ice has to offer. The only match where I do miss it is in the mirror, but no one play threshold in Syracuse.

For me, Fire/Ice just didn't do enough. You may totally disagree, but in playtesting this is what I've found. There was too many situations where I wanted a hard counter instead of a card which I felt didn't do enough for me. It's a metagame call, so I can't blame you if you totally disagree with me.

I guess I will have to post more Top 8's. :)

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Originally Posted by EaD

And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

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And Counterbalance plus Daze+FoW-Backup isn't?

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Concerning the Survival Matchup i made very bad expiriences.
I played with the swan list 12 times in like 5 tourneys vs. Survival and lost all, even when i had the cbtop engine out, that makes me think that even with cb, survival remains very bad news for us.

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Without an active Survival they can't do much against CBalance. I'd say you did something wrong here. Except if you were playing against the BGW-variants which have Pernicious Deed MD.

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Originally Posted by EaD

And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

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CB > Stifle against storm combo. Roughly, the following describes how it goes:

Those that do use setup to get disruption and combo pieces in hand to finally go off will not care about Stifle but will get crushed badly by CB. Those that don't care to play enough disruption and try to win on turn 1 or 2 will lose to Force and Daze, while may not be disruptable by Stifle, as they may have a non-storm win condition. If these actually take the time to carry on with disruption, CB will be taken into effect. Those that play less setup, but do carry considerable disruption are slowed down enough by Force and Daze while you get to play CB, which, from now on, will deny lots to them as much as it would to a more setup oriented storm combo deck. Those happen to be, respectively, FT and Solidarity, SI and Belcher, and TES.

I love Stifle in my build, but I agree with Jaiminho. CB is by far a better defense against storm backed up with FoW//Daze backup. Stifle is great against Fetchlands, Wastelands, etc., but as far as actual protection goes it's CB. Is Spell Snare as useful as it could be? Could those be something different as well as Stifle?

Pce,

--DC

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Quote:Originally Posted by EaD
And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

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And Counterbalance plus Daze+FoW-Backup isn't?

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CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks

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Adan as you maybe noticed i live in germany and we have just few list splashing red for anger. Most of the survival players play rock-survival with kitchen finks (!!) and shriekmaws and of course deeds md, which are rly good.(I've even seen some recsur lists around).

@ Jaminho: Depends on the situation. If you are on the play and lay a land first, you have more treaths they have to deal with, if they want to cover themselves. So you slow them down and are able to play beaters to finish them off quickly or cantrip into disruption.
If you are not on the play, you are even at best to balancedugr list, because they have one turn more to go off. And the CB is cc2.

But that' not rly the point.
Both versions balanced or not have an improved matchup vs. combo immo through the automatically added cs.

The point is that i think the tempothresh lists are performing better than the swans, against the bad matchups (which still are bad even they got more favorable), and that the good matchups still remain good.
For instance, take the landstill matchup:
It's bad, since they're all playing the cunningstill versions, the handicap is like about 70-30, in landstills favor.
Of course there are cc4 slots in the Swanlists, which allow you to counter the humility and the wraths.
But you just play 3 swans and having one of them in the opening hand is really a pain if you aren't able to shuffle it away, or aren't able to dive into it with the cb-top engine. As well if you can manage to reveal the swan it's still a manaconsuming process, since the landstill guy will know, that you have to counter their bunch of threats.
The only thing to really attack landstill is the manabase. Mooneffects are great, but so is wasteland and stifle.
Stifle allows you to slow them down by fetch into the right mana, to deny the decreetoken and to save your mongoose from EE's and even from deeds , if they play any.
Wasteland destroy's a dual or a mishra for sure, so you can race them with burn and beaters.
And you have more burn, which proved to be really good against landstill, right?
I think the only thing that helps in the swanlists are the mooneffects in the sideboard, as adan mentioned before.
Further on as i noticed (and earned an invidious laughter from adan), stifle and waste supports the gameplan of this deck just better than it does in the swanlist.
Canadiantresh is designed for tempo, holding the opponent off his mana, counter his spells with lowered cc counterpells, while beating and burning him to death.
Swan is just splashing red for the chains, which are not designed for tempo (but still are a good card).
Closing the ideal version of UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the tempovariant due to better supportment of the gameplan.

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Originally Posted by EaD

The point is that i think the tempothresh lists are performing better than the swans, against the bad matchups (which still are bad even they got more favorable), and that the good matchups still remain good.

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Bullshit since the canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh tends to lose against Loam-based decks where SwanThresh can still shine with BASICLANDS, Counterbalance and maybe even SB Blood Moons which are really good against Lands.dec.

Additionally you always have the random combokill which allows you to out-control them even though you don't have threats, but you can still win during 1 or 2 turns.

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For instance, take the landstill matchup:
It's bad, since they're all playing the cunningstill versions, the handicap is like about 70-30, in landstills favor.
Of course there are cc4 slots in the Swanlists, which allow you to counter the humility and the wraths.

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So being able to counter everything is bad or what?

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But you just play 3 swans and having one of them in the opening hand is really a pain if you aren't able to shuffle it away, or aren't able to dive into it with the cb-top engine. As well if you can manage to reveal the swan it's still a manaconsuming process, since the landstill guy will know, that you have to counter their bunch of threats.

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Threats? In Landstill? What? Which threats?

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The only thing to really attack landstill is the manabase. Mooneffects are great, but so is wasteland and stifle.
Stifle allows you to slow them down by fetch into the right mana, to deny the decreetoken and to save your mongoose from EE's and even from deeds , if they play any.

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Yeah, try to attack the manabase of UWb LS which plays 5-6 basics. -.-

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Wasteland destroy's a dual or a mishra for sure, so you can race them with burn and beaters.
And you have more burn, which proved to be really good against landstill, right?

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canadian thresh: 4 Bolt, 4 Fire//Ice -> 20 Damage

Swans: 4 Bolt, 3 Chain, 1 Lightning Storm -> 22 + (2 x n) Damage, n being the amount of lands you discard.

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Swan is just splashing red for the chains, which are not designed for tempo (but still are a good card).

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SwanThresh was not designed for straight tempo-play in teh first place. You failed hard at understanding the concept, meh.

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Closing the ideal version of UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the tempovariant due to better supportment of the gameplan.

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That's a sloppy conclusion. SwanThresh might not be as good as Tempotresh concering tempogamin, but it is still able to do so.

That is also the thing I like about the deck. You can actually choose with role to play, whether you simply out-control him or beat him down with critters and burn. And being that flexible, I'd prefer SwanThresh.

Stop gettin cocky, dude.

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Threats? In Landstill? What? Which threats?

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Card's that win the game not-diarectly like humility/ standstill/ wrath/ decree / discs / deed, since landstill isn't playing really threats.

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SwanThresh can still shine with BASICLANDS

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Jeah, it shines so well against DD.
But still it remains a bad matchup, even for the swanlist, no?

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Additionally you always have the random combokill which allows you to out-control them even though you don't have threats, but you can still win during 1 or 2 turns.

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Jeah, random.

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Yeah, try to attack the manabase of UWb LS which plays 5-6 basics. -.-

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First turn basic? Very good.
You don't have to destroy them all you know, just to delay them.

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Swans: 4 Bolt, 3 Chain, 1 Lightning Storm -> 22 + (2 x n) Damage, n being the amount of lands you discard.

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THey can throw back chain on the swan to draw 3 cards, or like burning yourself ( which can be of course neglected playing against landstill), or may even burn your little goyfy goyf.
Lightning Storm, could maybe come back to your head as well.

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SwanThresh was not designed for straight tempo-play in teh first place. You failed hard at understanding the concept, meh.

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Swan is just splashing red for the chains, which are not designed for tempo

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Thought this one's obvious.
Are you always attackin your discuss. partner directly to appear superior?

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And being that flexible, I'd prefer SwanThresh.

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That's a sloppy conclusion.

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I think this is gettin' nowhere.
Both decks have their advantages and disadvantages, the one is more straight forward (what i personally prefer) the other supposed to be flexible.
So just choose, what fit's your playing style.
So far.

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Originally Posted by EaD

Card's that win the game not-diarectly like humility/ standstill/ wrath/ decree / discs / deed, since landstill isn't playing really threats.

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Counterbalance can - assuming we have Swans on top - counter every spell you listed above, except Deed. So what's wrong about Counterbalance?

Stifle and Wasteland can't do anything against these which makes your hype about them redundant.

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Jeah, it shines so well against DD.

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Well, beside that Counterbalance counters Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish and Loam infinite times (which Spell Snare can't), is THAT your counter-argument?!

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But still it remains a bad matchup, even for the swanlist, no?

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Well. No. I played against Aggro-Loam a few times and it's actually ok, I won like 5-2. 3 times combo, 2 times out-controling him. I have not played against Lands.dec, but I'd say that Blood Moon makes it even better since Counterbalance already turns his deck into a pile consisting of utility-lands.

And vice-versa, Blood Moon turns his 43Land to 43Mountain.

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First turn basic? Very good.
You don't have to destroy them all you know, just to delay them.

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You will delay yourself just by the way. Keeping a blue source open for Stifle does slow yourself down. The trick is to be aggressive without overextending. And that's where SwanThresh could do better since 1 Swan can be enough to win (-> combo).

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They can throw back chain on the swan to draw 3 cards, or like burning yourself ( which can be of course neglected playing against landstill), or may even burn your little goyfy goyf.
Lightning Storm, could maybe come back to your head as well.

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OMG. You mentioned "Swans" and "Chain" in the same scenario and you are trying to make it look bad with irrelevant things that can happen. Oh man. Ok, for everyone:

"Swans" + "Chain" = "Win" aka "Good Game" aka "You retarded topdecker!". Even though if they draw 3 cards, even though they will burn your Goyf, so what? You will have drawn 42 cards or so and therefore you will have more lands in your hand than your opponent to ensure that Lightning Storm does NOT come back to your head. And you will have all your Lightning Bolts, quad-Force of Will-bakcup, Dazes etc.

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Are you always attackin your discuss. partner directly to appear superior?

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Guilty as charged.

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Stifle and Wasteland can't do anything against these which makes your hype about them redundand

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Allright kid, stifle won't do anything vs. deed, decreetoken or disk. Got it.

As you tell the story you will always have the swan it the top right?
Ah i forgot your the selfclaimed god drawer.

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Well, beside that Counterbalance counters Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish and Loam infinite times (which Spell Snare can't), is THAT your counter-argument?!

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Yeah, cb counters it all, you're the man. Spell Snare as you said doesn't, cuz it just affects cc2 spells, right.

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Well. No. I played against Loam a few times and it's actually good, I won like 5-2. 3 times combo, 2 times out-controling him

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Wow how impressive you are. 3 times combo, and managed to out-control him.Phew. Very representative of course.

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You will delay yourself just by the way.

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As long as i win, i dont mind.

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Even though if they draw 3 cards, even though they will burn your Goyf, so what?

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Considering you have no swan outside, my fault not to set a point instead of commas. Should just show that Chain isnt that awesome on it's own.

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Guilty as charged. Oh wait, I was attacking your arguments actually. And they ARE ridiculous to a degree.

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The only thing that is ridicolous is your childish affectation.

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Originally Posted by EaD

Yeah, cb counters it all, you're the man. Spell Snare as you said doesn't, cuz it just affects cc2 spells, right.

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That's why I wrote "infinite times". Spell Snare can only counter them ONCE. While you can run out of Spell Snares, an active Counterbalance will hinder him from resolving further spells.

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Wow how impressive you are. 3 times combo, and managed to out-control him. Phew. Very representative of course.

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As long as i win, i dont mind.

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Considering you have no swan outside, my fault not to set a point instead of commas. Should just show that Chain isnt that awesome on it's own.

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Ah ok. I suggest you should then call a judge if your opponent draws 3 cards after you played Chain without having Swans out... ???

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The only thing that is ridicolous is your childish affectation.

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Ok.

Counterbalance can - assuming we have Swans on top - counter every spell you listed above, except Deed. So what's wrong about Counterbalance?
Assuming you have a 3-of that you can't actually tutor for on top of your library and resolved both Counterbalance and Top, and have the mana to manipulate your library. And you did all of these things before turn 6 consistently?

Stifle and Wasteland can't do anything against these which makes your hype about them redundant.
Besides prevent a deck from casting them because most control decks are dependent on either Fetchlands, Nonbasics or both.

Well, beside that Counterbalance counters Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish and Loam infinite times (which Spell Snare can't), is THAT your counter-argument?!
You still need Top and a 2cc card on top of your library, of which you run 11, if I remember correctly. Are you starting with Countertop in play?


Well. No. I played against Aggro-Loam a few times and it's actually ok, I won like 5-2. 3 times combo, 2 times out-controling him. I have not played against Lands.dec, but I'd say that Blood Moon makes it even better since Counterbalance already turns his deck into a pile consisting of utility-lands.

And vice-versa, Blood Moon turns his 43Land to 43Mountain.
I can see how the Swan combo can win against board stalls, but I doubt your results are representative of the matchup as a whole.

Again, you actually have to draw your Counterbalances and resolve Top, and get a 2cc card on top of your library. This might be difficult depending on the number of Wastes/Ports your opponent drawn. Not saying Counterbalance isn't awesome in that matchup, but I doubt you draw it 100% of the time.


You will delay yourself just by the way. Keeping a blue source open for Stifle does slow yourself down. The trick is to be aggressive without overextending. And that's where SwanThresh could do better since 1 Swan can be enough to win (-> combo).
The threat of a Stifle slows your opponent down and forces him to make decisions, even if you are bluffing it. Many times I've had people sit on a fetchland or two because of that untapped land. Not to mention actually Stifling a land.



OMG. You mentioned "Swans" and "Chain" in the same scenario and you are trying to make it look bad with irrelevant things that can happen. Oh man. Ok, for everyone:

"Swans" + "Chain" = "Win" aka "Good Game" aka "You retarded topdecker!". Even though if they draw 3 cards, even though they will burn your Goyf, so what? You will have drawn 42 cards or so and therefore you will have more lands in your hand than your opponent to ensure that Lightning Storm does NOT come back to your head. And you will have all your Lightning Bolts, quad-Force of Will-bakcup, Dazes etc.
You're missing the point that the Swan combo is absolutely fucking awful in the mirror because unless you have the combo, and counter protection, you run the very real risk of giving your opponent an Ancestral fucking Recall. Not to mention Swan dies in a fire to Red Blasts.

It seems you completely underestimate Canadian Threshold. It plays control infinitely better than you give it credit for.

I have played canadian Threshold in January and got annihilated by Clemens because he fetched basiclands. And when I played Landstill, I anihhilated the other tempo-Thresh player by doing the same.

Therefore, Wastelands are becoming worse since you don't have any need for generic mana. That leaves only Stifle for you. But if you are wasting your Stifles for fetchlands, you won't be able to counter Deed, Decree, Explosives.

But we have to distinguish between UWb LS (which runs 5-6 basiclands) and 4color Landstill (maybe 2 basics maximum).

Against 4color Landstill, canadian Thresh is good, yes. But against UWb LS... no.
But 4color LS can also be disrupted hard by Blood Moon.

Yes, if I don't have Counterbalance, Lands will most likely reduce me to ashes but running Counterbalance and Blood Moon gives us at least more outs than canadian Thresh has.

Bluffing Stifle when I don't have one is ok if you really have nothing else to play, but otherwise I'd give the 1st Turn Ponder or Mongoose top-priority.
But that's possible, yes.

Yes, canadian Thresh seems to have the upper hand vs. SwanThresh. Your argument with the Swans might be correct, but my worries are that you won't be able to cast it anyway since canadian Threshold has got a lot of manadenial which makes Daze stronger. Not to mention that Spell Snare counters most of the dangerous cards which are Counterbalance and Goyf.

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Originally Posted by EaD

THey can throw back chain on the swan to draw 3 cards, or like burning yourself ( which can be of course neglected playing against landstill), or may even burn your little goyfy goyf.

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If you're aiming the Chain at your opponent instead of your Swan, it had better be the killing blow.

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Originally Posted by Adan

I have played canadian Threshold in January and got annihilated by Clemens because he fetched basiclands. And when I played Landstill, I anihhilated the other tempo-Thresh player by doing the same.

Therefore, Wastelands are becoming worse since you don't have any need for generic mana. That leaves only Stifle for you. But if you are wasting your Stifles for fetchlands, you won't be able to counter Deed, Decree, Explosives.

But we have to distinguish between UWb LS (which runs 5-6 basiclands) and 4color Landstill (maybe 2 basics maximum).

Against 4color Landstill, canadian Thresh is good, yes. But against UWb LS... no.
But 4color LS can also be disrupted hard by Blood Moon.

Yes, if I don't have Counterbalance, Lands will most likely reduce me to ashes but running Counterbalance and Blood Moon gives us at least more outs than canadian Thresh has.

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Why were you letting him fetch? If you didn't see a Stifle in the X games that you played, it's whatever but if you were saving it for Decree/Explosives or whatever it's the wrong call.

Yeah, Wasteland is bad by itself against Landstill when they can fetch basics. However, Stifle makes the probability of them getting all basics that much less.

I agree that a deck with Blood Moon is going to have a better chance against 43 Lands than a deck without it, but you made it sound like you were favored by quite a bit.

The fear of a Stifle effects your opponent as that random U mana open can turn into a time-walk. Also, I never actually specified what turn it happened on as you are correct in that instance, Ponder/Goose usually takes priority.

I'll vouch my POV on the matter:

• Against UWb Landstill, both Canadian and Swan Thresh are unfavoured in game 1. Canadian is more random because it strongly depends on whether or not Landstill's first land drops are vulnerable to Stifle/Wasteland; Swan vs. Landstill games will be more predictable and come down to small edges. Postboard, Swan doesn't usually get significantly better (stuff like REB or Needle is good, but not game-breaking), whereas Canadian can improve *if* it has the appropriate tools (mainly Winter Orb, which is a true "resolve = I Win" card).
• Aggro Loam is a close matchup (and actually unfavoured if AL runs maindeck Chalice), but Swan Thresh is the better one here, thanks to a variety of factors: its basic lands, its evasive/combo finisher, twice as many ways to kill fucking Countryside Crusher, and the ability to lock the critical 2cc slot with Counterbalance (some AL builds don't even run EE!). It's a long shot for Canadian to successfully manascrew Loam; Mox Diamond in particular is a beast here. The post-sideboard options are comparable (usually Crypt for both), although Swan Thresh is more likely to have interesting tools like Mind Harness.
• When paired against each other, I'll bet on Swan Thresh - or, more appropriately, on Moon Thresh, since Swan only gets the edge over Canadian on account of the basics in the main and Moons in the side, while the combo itself should be sided out here (for the record, not because the opponent will burn the Swans, but rather because a) you don't want 4cc spells here and b) Chain of Plasma is unreliable when you're on the defensive).

I have grown fond of counterspell in Canadian builds.
I would probably not switch the fire // ices to counterspells as was discussed, but I've put them in the bounce-slots. Also I have one extra in the SB.

List:

Canadian build
- 2 bounce
+ 2 counterspell

SB:
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
4 pyroclasm
4 pyroblast
1 counterspell

The extra counterspell in SB might seem weird, and I agree, it is weird. But I've found that one of the most common boarding-strategies I use for game 2 is -4 daze + 3 krosan grip, +1 counterspell. And it works.

I'm not saying it is superieor to the bounce in the original build, I'm only saying I really like counterspell in the deck. If anyone has another idea of how to fit them in, please share.

I won a local mini-tournament yesterday with the list posted above.
I went 3 straight 2-0 against Enchantress, 4c landstill w/deed, and UB Trinketstalker w/CB-top.
Question is, was it thanks to counterspells?
I would like to think so, but right now, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty biased in this issue ;)

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Originally Posted by Henrik

I won a local mini-tournament yesterday with the list posted above.
I went 3 straight 2-0 against Enchantress, 4c landstill w/deed, and UB Trinketstalker w/CB-top.
Question is, was it thanks to counterspells?
I would like to think so, but right now, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty biased in this issue ;)

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I would probably not remove the bounce spell in the deck. They seem to provide answers to cards that you can't easily deal with if they resolve. I'm not sure why people are so in love with fire/ice. It just didn't seem to do enough for me when I played the card. This could be because of the metagame is different in Syracuse compared to where you played. I always found that I wanted more protection in my hand, especially when I have a Goyf on the board.

I love all the cards in the deck except for the fire/ice slot and would not think about cutting anything else. I guess people have to come to their own conclusions, but please at least test the counterspells out, you might be surprised on how strong they really are.