I wouldn't generalize such things:Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Basically it's a question of whether the deck runs Wastelands/Ports/or Manlands or not.
--
Aggro Loam and DeadGuy being examples of running both Bob and such land.
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I wouldn't generalize such things:Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Basically it's a question of whether the deck runs Wastelands/Ports/or Manlands or not.
--
Aggro Loam and DeadGuy being examples of running both Bob and such land.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I won those matches too.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Maybe I'm missing something in this conversation, but I don't see man_lands in aggro loam very often; or port for that matter.
I'm with rockout on this one. If you have a sword you obviously play it before the standstill, but if you have none what's the point of doing nothing? You have to find the removal so you have to play standstill, especially when you have a manland to block the Confidant. If your Factory gets wasted, you maybe get killed be the confidant, but otherwise you will lose to the Confidant's card advantage even more likely. Under a Standstill the Confidant gives your opponent only card quality, because he will have to discard after a few turns or break the standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
I may agree on playing Standstill vs. a Confidant (at least if you don't have any answer in hand), but I'm very, very skeptical of doing so against a Confidant and Divining Top. If you are only relying on your draw step you're soon going to fall behind in land drops as well, which is positively lethal.
My metagame is mainly
Landstill
Threshold
Gp-new-threshold (or NLU or Nassif's or whatever you will call them.)
Seeing how the 2cc are so powerful in Legacy, do you think a counterspell package of :
0 Counterspell but 4 spellsnare and 4 force of will
is good?
Counterbalance is probably the most problematic of all the 2cc. (On the draw, Counterspell is too slow)
Old Threshold's list were still ok, but with new GP-list (where they have a lot of 3cc and 4cc to shut down our Vindicate, EE and wrath/humility/elspeth) answers to CB have become more complicated! (Thus, it is ideal to prevent CB from landing altogether)
In theory, what is the greatest weakness of the deck?
In deck building, I found it to be vary hard to build the deck.
Should I pack more removal to increase my aggro and aggro-control matchup? (Especially Merfolk, new-Threshold, goblins)
At the moment, my removal package is
2-3 vindicate (still hesitating)
1 humility
4 swords to plowshare
2 engineered explosives.
I feel this removal package is best against Aggro-control (although vulnerable to Counterbalance, which most Aggro-control play), but weak against Aggro decks (I have almost no mass removal in the like of Wrath of God)
Should I play Decree of justice, more Crucible of Worlds to face mirror? (I don't play any Decree maindeck, in my current list)
How many basic lands? The more I play, the less consistent the deck can be. Yet, if I play no basic land, then I scoop to Blood moon effect. Worth the risk? With 4-5 basic, do I still scoop to Blood Moon? Obviously not, unless if they play it first turn (and I have no answer)
Wasteland vs Dust Bowl. In a meta with a lot of Landstill, I think playing wasteland is better. Especially against opposing Mishra's
18 blue spell is low, barely enough to support Force of will.
Do I need more?
Combo MU is already bad MD. Ignore it and concentrate against Aggro and Aggro-control and control?
Maindeck Counterbalance? Are they making the deck better against aggro and control? Or do they improve the deck only against burn and Combo?
Standstill : So good, yet so bad at the same time. Quite bad in the mirror. Not very good against Aether Vial. Can be risky when facing against Sensei's divining top.
I don't really agree on playing a Standstill against a Dark Confidant.
The CA generated by its ability will overwhelm Landstill. I do agree that he has to break the Standstill before playing any spells. Or he can just play a land every turn and eventually beat you. Or, if he plays discards (Duress, hymn). He can simply get the best hand possible before breaking the standstill and casting his discard to get rid of the CA you got from Standstill.
But back to my problems. They are
1- Counterbalance (in aggro-control)
2- Control mirror (losing the mirror makes me mad)
3- Aggro (Landstill should be capable of beating random aggro)
An attempt to solve some problems... (They have already been suggested, I believe. But I haven't read every posts)
A) I now am playing 3 Sensei's divining top in my MD.
Pros :
I feel they do improve my mirror (alot of landstill in my metagame).
I feel the 3 SDT also improve my general MU against the other deck. Card Quality can be an important factor in winning games
Cons :
The 3 SDT made me remove the Decree of Justice from my maindeck. So improving my draws against Landstill made me weaker against him, because I've lost one of my kill condition.
B) 1 Enlightened tutor in the MD.
Pros :
Like the 3 SDT, they help getting answers. I've cut 1 humility to play 1 Enlightened tutor. Not sure if it is a good idea.
The ET can get SDT, Humility and EE.
It can also get CB. But I am not sure if I will play CB or not in the maindeck.
Cons :
Slow?
Sorry if my post doesn't make any sense. Im trying to figure out a solution to my problem, and it was a sort of draft!
Robert
I think that decks like Eva Green/Pikula/GWB Agrorock with Confidant and Top are capable of breaking standstill and coming out on top. There's no better play to break standstill as eot: Dark Ritual, my turn: Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize. I'm pretty sure that a play like that should have taken away all the trouble for Bob, Tombstalker and his friends.
You run only 4 manlands tops, where they have 4 wastelands, card draw and a superior form of selection. You CAN'T win that, unless you're going, land, fac, land, fac, land, fac, land, land, land, land, decree or such.
I'm not a big fan of dropping Standstill in the face of a confidant unless I have:
- 2 manlands or
- 1 decree or
- Wog and Elspeth to break my own Standstill and win almost instantly
I'm sure I won't ever (at least, when I'm sober) drop a standstill when he has Confidant AND Top.
Aggro Rock and other Rock variants have always had trouble against Landstill, mainly because it loses attrition wars. All you should be doing against Rock variants is just get ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Pikula and Eva Green are decks that rely on their opening hand. In fact, they tend to usually play off their opening hand. If they open up with a Rit, Thoughtseize, Hymn; then it's destined for you to lose if they have a follow up threat. Otherwise, they tend to mull. If they go 1st Turn Thoughtseize, Confidant 2nd Turn, then your second turn should be dropping Standstill. You will do this because if you can stay ahead, you will be able to live and continue to answer threats. Even if you dont draw Factories, you can sit on 4-5 Land and just cycle DoJ when declaring blockers.
They cast Thoughtseize, you respond with Swords. In fact, before you even move to discard step, you should be casting Swords. Which also reminds me, you probably have mana open to say, cast Brainstorm as well.Quote:
There's no better play to break standstill as eot: Dark Ritual, my turn: Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize. I'm pretty sure that a play like that should have taken away all the trouble for Bob, Tombstalker and his friends.
I hope to god you realize their card draw sucks. They also lack a superior form of selection mainly because they're decks that, ding, play off their opening hand.Quote:
You run only 4 manlands tops, where they have 4 wastelands, card draw and a superior form of selection. You CAN'T win that, unless you're going, land, fac, land, fac, land, fac, land, land, land, land, decree or such.
You also have to choice of breaking your own Standstill. EOT, you break your Standstill then proceed to drop a Humility, Elspeth or something else big with added follow up. The fact Confidant is on the board isn't much of a problem, because they only ping you 2 damage a Turn. They're probably taking way more with Confidant. Even if they could "sculpt" the perfect hand, you basically have your mana base set up and stabilized.Quote:
I'm not a big fan of dropping Standstill in the face of a confidant unless I have:
Please, read. I was talking about Standstill vs Confidant AND Top. Confidant does not suck when it hits play and stays unansewerd, and a Top in play combined with 6-8 fetches IS a superior form of selection. YOU are the one relying on one random draw each turn, while they draw two, and can pick which ones. Decree is your only hope, because they will draw wasteland more than 2 times as often as you're drawing Factories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I'll restate what I've said before:
Standstill vs Confidant; yes if I've got 2 Factories, the bombs, or Decree.
Standstill vs Top AND Confidant: only if I've got Decree.
For clarifiction: I'm talking about my list (1 Decree, 4 Factory, 0 Humility).
So this deck has been a major project of mine, I've been trying make it as streamlined and consistent as possible. Not that I don't think cards like wish, clique and enlightened tutor have their place, but I feel that in most of today's developed metas the deck needs to a. draw as much permission and board control as possible, b. function better under standstill than other decks and c. not die to nonbasic hate. So I'm looking at a list like this now, feel free to rip into it.
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island/underground sea
1 savannah/scrubland
3 island
2 plains
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds/life from the loam (preferred but you lose plague in the side)
I like it because it's simple and consistent, rarely mulligans and punches through shit like blood moon pretty easily.
I don't get it. How do you punch through blood moon?Quote:
Originally Posted by 3duece
One fist at a time :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Your model of all models does not need 6 fetches. Make yourself as resilient to stifle as possible, you cannot afford to lose land drops in the early game.Quote:
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island/underground sea
1 savannah/scrubland
3 island
2 plains
But thats if you want 24 land. It seems a bit much to be honest.Code:4 flood
4 tundra
3 waste
4 mishra
1 underground
1 scrub
4 island
3 plains
4 counterspell??? I ask you, how much testing have you done with four counterspell. At least drop 2 and put the extra permission into something that will actually win you said game.Quote:
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force of will
Overall your list is basicly standard, but there are some fundamental things you are missing. AKA the numbers. Your numbers between draw/removal/win cons/ utility are off. You should really consider more then just FOF and BS for draw spells. Top is incredible right now, and I would run at least 1-2 in any landstill model I play, simply based on how powerful the card is in the mirror, as well as any aggro control match up you play in. You also should really consider the fact that your missing a utility spell. aka vindicate or wish. If you don't choose one or both then no ones going to look at your model as playable as these are the answers to the meta-game.Quote:
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 elspeth, knight errant
1 decree of justice
3 engineered explosives
1 crucible of worlds/life from the loam (preferred but you lose plague in the side)
I agree more than 5 basics help tremendously, but you will still want to be able to cast your WW and UU spells in the face of land destruction spells such as Stifle. Running more multicolored sources (fetches) are going to be required, for his list at least. (less nessesary for you, Mossivo, since I don't think you have Counterspells) I run seven fetches and 7 basics, and I'm still not happy with my manabase, which includes 24 lands and two dragons. Also:http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=515Quote:
Your model of all models does not need 6 fetches. Make yourself as resilient to stifle as possible, you cannot afford to lose land drops in the early game.
He runs FOF, mulitple 4cc cards, no Dragons, Ponders or Tops. 24 is needed.Quote:
But thats if you want 24 land. It seems a bit much to be honest.
I agree with this. I've been playing around with a list without either of these, and it has problems with resolved Vials, Chalices at 1, even with three Explosives.Quote:
You also should really consider the fact that your missing a utility spell. aka vindicate or wish. If you don't choose one or both then no ones going to look at your model as playable as these are the answers to the meta-game.
How did your opponent get both into play? You must have not been playing your Spell Snares then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Why in god would you keep such an atrocious hand to begin then?Quote:
YOU are the one relying on one random draw each turn, while they draw two, and can pick which ones. Decree is your only hope, because they will draw wasteland more than 2 times as often as you're drawing Factories.
Why would you play 1 DoJ?Quote:
For clarifiction: I'm talking about my list (1 Decree, 4 Factory, 0 Humility).
I have tested four counterspell, I actually used to run it over two spell snare. Its never failed me and is very strong. I probably don't want two in an opener, but I want to draw them all game long.Quote:
4 counterspell??? I ask you, how much testing have you done with four counterspell. At least drop 2 and put the extra permission into something that will actually win you said game.
I find this questionable. I've never needed more than three win conditions beyond factories. This isn't your weird (but cool) speedstill/clique hybrid thing, I want to play a classic control roll here. I was running two tops in place of two counterspell for a hot second but wasn't impressed with them, especially without a full eight fetches or ponder. It's obviously a good card but I didn't find myself being able to drop one under a standstill often enough for it to be worth my while. I prefer the heavier permission suite, especially since it improves your combo matchup somewhat if you can make it to turn three or four. I really don't like wish as is well documented in this thread. Vindicate is a very strong card and maybe deserves more consideration on my part. But tapping down three in my main phase before maybe turn six or seven seems like a very weak play. But saying that my list is unplayable because I don't run the wishboard or play a set of three mana sorceries on top of explosives doesn't seem to hold up to me.Quote:
Overall your list is basicly standard, but there are some fundamental things you are missing. AKA the numbers. Your numbers between draw/removal/win cons/ utility are off. You should really consider more then just FOF and BS for draw spells. Top is incredible right now, and I would run at least 1-2 in any landstill model I play, simply based on how powerful the card is in the mirror, as well as any aggro control match up you play in. You also should really consider the fact that your missing a utility spell. aka vindicate or wish. If you don't choose one or both then no ones going to look at your model as playable as these are the answers to the meta-game.
Your list is cool and far from unplayable. 12 hardcounter are great against a lot of decks. I myself play 11. I went to 3 CS to add SDT. This card is great. it helps you to find everything and with a shuffle effect you can cantrip it away if you don't need it. I would play 2 SDT, cut 1 CS and 1 Wrath. Wrath ain't that great anymore, it often trades only 1/1.
I often see people saying wrath usually trades 1 on 1 but really, are you playing in the mythical no-goblin-elf-or-merfolk.meta or what? WoGs have their place!
Elves and Golblins are nearly not present in my meta. Against merfolk the wrath is great of course (though it can be kind of hard to cast it against merfolk's heavy mana disruption combined with Daze and/or Disrupt).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
But most decks can just play a threat like Goyf, Grunt, Confidant, Terravore... and you have to get of rid of these guys as fast as possible. Intelligent player's won't overextend against Landstill, because they know that one guy can kill us alone if it stays. You will just have to cast Wrath then. I don't say you should play no Wrath, but more than 2 seems not good to me. Then rather go for 4 EE I would say. Wrath is such a bad thing on your opening hand. EE kills Vial, Lackey, Mongoose... first turn and makes your way clear for Standstill. And it kills CB, Survival, Chalice... in the later game. Wrath is often just dead untill turn 6-7.
Is humility still good? Orf too vulnerable because of Krosan Grip?
My removals are
2 wrath of god
2 ee
2-3 vindicate
4 swords to plowshare
I wanted 1-2 more removal to face against aggro (Elves and merlfok)
but im hesitating between
3rd EE
1-2 Humility
3rd wrath of god
any ideas?
Robert
3rd EE, 3rd Vindicate. I sometimes bring in Humility out of the board. In my meta, everyone knows I play only landstill so I have to switch it up a little bit sometimes. Humility will auto win any game against any deck that wins through attack besides the mirror. I'd say run a 1 of Humility instead of the 3rd Wrath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega