Anyone have any recent tournament reports?
I'm more interested in how Games 2 & 3 played out.
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Anyone have any recent tournament reports?
I'm more interested in how Games 2 & 3 played out.
I believe that the secondary consideration after you've answered the question of whether "the 61st card helps you win more games" is whether any of your other MD cards might under-performing based on the following (not an absolute list):Quote:
Originally Posted by AEnesidem
- Are there situations where you would NOT want to draw into the card?
- Are there situations where you would have wished that this card was some other card?
- Are there situations where this card has impeded your development?
- Would you be able to win as often if this card wasn't in the deck (my personal favorite)?
- Does the card help you in losing situations?
- Is it absolutely necessary for the card to be in the deck (a somewhat vague inquiry)?
- Does the card effectively contribute to the primary objectives of the deck?
Anything else that can be added to this list?
These considerations might help in cutting down the deck to 60 cards given that the 61st has been determined to be necessary.
Kind Regards,
jares
I'm curious as to why this deck doesn't use entomb. I've been testing with it lately over additional discard outlets, the 4th ichorid, and a dredger, and it's been working great. It can act as a discard outlet for dredger heavy or breakthrough/cephalid hands by searching phantasmagorian, it can tutor for a dredger, it can tutor for a dread return/dr target/narco/bridge/ichorid/therapy if your hand was discard outlet, dredger, cephalid and you don't have a chance to cast it before turn 3 and you didn't dredge something to let you win, it lets you turn 1 therapy, turn 2 entomb narcomoeba, flashback therapy against combo, it makes mulligans less bad where discard outlets can make dredger-less mulligans unkeepable, the list goes on.
Dredge is a deck that takes an incredible amount of patience and precise decision-making on the player's part to ensure victory. Surgical Extraction and Snapcaster Mage are nothing new; you have to learn how to play around them games two and potentially three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
There are a few plays you could base your line of play around Snapcaster and Surgical off of, but it really comes down to tight play and basically a war of attrition; it's very situational. Decks that pack both of those cards tend to have a really bad match-up against Dredge - even post-board - and that is about to change with the addition of Faithless Looting. This card is going to blow the deck wide open and give you more consistency and explosiveness when you need it. It will allow you to slow-dredge and give you information based on the way your opponent is playing (slow, passive, etc.).
Cabal Therapy is a good measuring stick for your opponent's hand as well. Cards like Memory's Journey post-board hide those cards so they aren't "Extracted." You have to learn how to play around it while a game is in progress; Dredge isn't a deck you can pick up and expect to do well with it in a meta dripping with hate. You're expected to win game one - but the real test comes in weathering the storm games two and three.
1. Tight play.
2. A very good sideboard plan.
3. A working knowledge of your opponent's hand and deck.
4. Note how aggressive your opponent's mulligans are. This is a good indicator they are either looking for hate. If they decided to bring in only a few cards like S.E., chances are they are going to try and settle on a strong six than a weaker seven. Follow through and play around Extraction - always naming Snapcaster Mage against Snapcaster.deck. Chances are they will fire off an Extraction in response to your Therapy if you have a card worthwhile in your graveyard. If not, take the card that will give them the most value out of it and ensure their one strike is sub-optimal as best as you can.
Also, Unmask isn't a bad card, and in the sideboard I can see its value. However you have to remember you're running a lower Black count (I'm assuming) and you need to be able to feed cards to Ichorid in the process. Unmask kind of depletes the optimal value of Ichorid and forces you to play a higher Black count. Learning how to play Cabal Therapy properly is ideally where you might want to be.
With Breakthrough, Looting, L.E.D., Firestorm, and Putrid Imps, this deck can just go balls whenever it wants now. I just ran my sixty-one on MWS for the last two hours against some very competent opponents - each with Cages, Extractions, etc, and didn't miss a beat.
My best advice is to have a very powerful sideboarding strategy and you'll do just fine.
Alright, just came home from a small Legacy side event at a prerelease.
As 53 people attended the prerelease there was no room left for the Legacy event at first, so we spent two hours playtesting a bit until finally enough people from the PR had dropped.
This is the list I played:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Wispmare
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Coffin Purge
1 Leyline of the Void
Pretty standard list. While scouting I saw Reanimator, TES and two Burn decks which made me run the maindeck Iona. In an unknown metgame I would have gone -1 DR, -1 Iona, +1 Thug, +1 Ichorid
The Chains in the Board over Claim because of Reanimator. Grudge and Firestorm are standard. Wispmare is the 5th out to Leyline of the Void which can also be DRed against annoying Enchantments. Hypnotist for Combo, Leyline for the bluff against Reanimator and the mirror and the Purge was the filler.
In testing before the tournament I played against Punishing Maverick twice. He talks about how badly he's going to crush me with his two maindecked Oozes, his maindeck Bojuka Bog and his two Tormods Crypt along with 4 E.Tutor out of the board.
Match 1:
Game 1: He's on the play and I easily go off on turn 2 and win from there.
Game 2: I mull to 5 and he has E.Tutor for Crypt in turn 1 followed by KotR on turn 3. I lose.
Game 3: At some point I Grudge a Crypt and follow up by Firestorming away Dryad Arbor, a KotR and some other dude, which wins me the game in the end.
Match 2:
Game 1: I don't remember anthing but that I easily win.
Game 2: I Therapy his Ooze away on turn 1 and win pretty easily from there.
Boading in both matches: +3 Grudge, +4 Firestorm, -1 PImp, -1 Tribe, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -1 DR, -1 Iona, -1 something
The tournament (only three rounds because of the big prerelease, but hey. Better than nothing).
Round 1: vs T2 Budget White Weenie
Game 1&2: Well, he plays a budget T2 deck and I have to explain to him how my deck actually works (damn, this is the hardest thing in the world actually). Easy 2-0.
Round 2: vs Reanimator
Game 1: I win the roll and keep my 7: City of Brass, Tireless Tribe, GGT, Breakthrough and some blanks. He mulls to 6 I think and I'm able to resolve the Tribe turn one. He goes USea, Careful Study discarding Jin-Gitaxias and Elesh Norn. I Dredge the troll in my draw step and hit a Moeba. I discard a CT, flashback it naming Daze, and after seeing that he didn't have any permission (but the turn 2 Animate Dead) in his hand, I Breakthrough and flip enough CTs to rip his hand apart and Iona on Black makes him scoop.
Sideboarding: -2 Ichorid, -1 Darkblast, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Tarnished Citadel, -1 something, +1 Leyline, +4 Chain, +1 Purge
I show him the Leyline.
Game 2: We both take a mulligan and I keep an good hand of two lands, Chain, two Trolls and PImp. He goes USea pass, I resolve the discard Dork. On his next turn he goes for Entomb (Elesh Norn) and passes. I discard one GGT and he Surgical Extracts it (WTH, grave hate in Reanimator). I draw a Stinkweed Imp from the top and pass the turn after attacking. He seems to flood out and doesn't really want to go for the Exhumes in his hand as long as he ddn't have any counters for the Chain in my hand, so he passes and I can restart my engine. I start amassing a small army while he's stuck with two Exhumes in his hand and by the time he has the counter backup for the Chain, I already have an Iona in my yard. He goes for Exhume on Elesh, but my 5/5 Iona can take it home.
After the match I see that he indeed boarded in all his Echoing Truths. Bluffing with the singleton Leyline is cool.
Round 3: vs Past in Flames Storm
Game 1: I'm happy about winning the die roll, but I end up mulliganing to 4 and he goes kills me on turn 2.
Sideboarding: -1 Ichorid, +1 Sadistic Hypnotist
Game 2: He goes down to 4 while I keep my 6 (Careful Study, Darkblast, GGT, Coliseum, two gold lands). I Carefully Study discarding GGT and Thug while he goes turn 1 Ponder. I Dredge for a while and when I darkblast his turn two Dark Confidant, he realizes that he won't recover from the mulligans and scoops.
Game 3: He mulls down to five while I keep the stone cold nuts: Cephalid Coliseum, gold land, 2 Careful Study, Breakthrough, two Dredgers. He doesn't assemble the combo in his first two turns, so he just loses to my 15 Zombies and Sadistic Hypnotist.
3-0 (6-1) in the end, which means first place. I was able to demonstrate how Dredge can win some of the hardest matchups, which is a pretty good thing after all. I did well in the last tournament I'm probably going to play without LEDs for a pretty long time.
I believe that this has already been considered somewhere in this thread, but I'll try to provide my two-cents' worth for why Entomb isn't currently being used:Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
- Obviously, it does nothing from the graveyard.
- The only spells that you want to be hard-casting in Dredge are Draw Spells and reliable discards outlets (with the exception of a Cabal Therapy whenever necessary).
Yes, Entomb does provide Dredge with access to a few tricks and some additional consistency, but unfortunately, the benefits seem underwhelming compared to the other options available (e.g. Breakthrough, Careful Study, Putrid Imp, and more recently, Faithless Looting).
Kind Regards,
jares
Good to see someone still going LEDless. Have you had any considerations for how you would incorporate Faithless Looting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
It's also good to see that we pretty much have the same MD for an unknown meta, the only difference being the 2 Undiscovered Paradise, as I use 2 more Tarnished Citadel.
Kind Regards,
jares
bad player obv. ...you keep any reasonable hands (which Dark Confidant exactly is not) he also boarded you discard I guess :rolleyes: you can't mulligan to 4/5 and expect to win against Dredge...Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Those points are all fine and valid, but I see lists playing tireless tribe. It also does nothing from the graveyard, it's as reliable a discard outlet as entomb for phantasmagorian, unless the game goes long and you don't see any additional dredgers. The list I've been testing with also plays careful study, breakthrough, and putrid imp, although it doesn't run looting yet. That may well take the place of the entomb slot, but with the release of looting, entomb has a draw spell to find as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Can I see a list running Entomb? I'm pretty curious to see how it looks. Entomb can get Vengeful Pharaoh in response to Reanimate on Iona, which I think is a game winning play. I tested Vengeful Pharaoh with Entomb/Life from the Loam in landstill before, and I can tell you this card does not disappoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
This is what I've been testing:Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
4 Entomb
1 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
3 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 River Kelpie
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
I'm not sure if it's running too many dread return targets, but it's been working out great. Changes from my previous list are -1 careful study, -1 golgari thug, -1 ichorid, -2 tireless tribe, +4 entomb,+1 phantasmogorian. I do like the idea of vengeful pharoah, I'm gonna try to find a slot to cut for it and test it out.
Last big tourney here before Cage is legal, so I finetuned my list, and played in the Iserlohn event today. Played good, was all positive about Dredge, and finished to a 5-1 to the 3rd place and got a Savannah.
Manaless Firestorm by Team Screw Attack
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ichorid
3 Phantasmagorian
other stuff
4 Firestorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Angel of Despair
Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
//////
4 Nature's Claim
3 Purify the Grave
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Blightsteel Colossus
This deck plays like Manaless and don't need the lands... It needs the lands only to play Firestorm/Darkblast [if needed], or hardcast Therapy. The main reason to play lands were A) Firestorm is fucking Awesome! b) Have sideboardoptions against stupid stuff like Leyline.
I cut all to the lowest number I could imagine from the graveyard goodies to get more room for everything else. I wanted 11 Lands because of statistic. The 1 Paradise was there because I only had 1 at these point [have 4 now], the 13 Dredgers were there to achieve maximum constance 4/4/4 but still don't wanted to lose the Darkblast-utility. As less Interaction as possible so no BT or WoC or fancy stuff, just 3 DRs and 2 Sphinxes to freak out, or to DR multiple Angels. Angel is in the main to not scoop against random jank like Ghostly Prison or whatever stupid cards your opponents bring G1. [You never know]
I decided in the last minute to play a 3rd Purify and cut a Grudge, because Grudge is old and trashy... only would board it again Stoneblade or Affinity if I find the space... Well I was right, Grudge was the most useless card in the 75 [besides Iona & Hypnotist because I didn't face combo]. My last 2 Slots were that random Ray against Enchantress / stupid Enchantment / Plague MUs, and a Colossus in case someone wants to mill me. I really don't wanted a 3rd Grudge or 1 more DR target. Eleshs were against Dredge mainly, and Iona / Hypnotist against combo. [Takes less space than 3 Leyline and 4 Winds of Change, I needed the space for Purify]
Report:
Round 1 against Canadian
G1: I had a slow start with Thug [no StreetWraithes] and he got an early Delver paired up with a Tarmogoyf. I just Therapied and baited his counters away. I couldn't get much business, because I was only toying around with 2 Shadows and 1 Ichorid. I had 5 life when he had 0 handcards and 4 lands. His board was 1 big Tarmy, 1 flipped and 1 unflipped Delver. I DRed a Sphinx, and found 3 Bridges and 2 Moebas, with the 3rd draw I dredged Darkblast. I DRed Angel with Sphinx and 2 Moebas [gaining 9 Tokens] to kill his Goyf, therapied my Angel calling whatever, DRed it again to kill Delver and darkblasted the other Delver. My board was a bounch of Zombies, and an Angel, his board was empty -> GG
G2: I started with DDDing a Phantasmagorian because I opened no Dredger. I never found a Dredger and got killed in a slow way.
G3: He extracted my Moebas and my Shadows early, and I haven't found a Purify to prevent that. He beats me with 2 Mongeese, and played his hand empty to reach Threshold. I just stalled with 1 Ichorid and 1 Bridge but my life went lower and lower. At 9 life he draws his card for the turn, and played a Delver. I know that he has only 1 handcard now, which is FoW. I decided not to block this Turn, because I need my Token. In my Turn I returned the Ichorid, hardcast a Thug in my Turn, and could finally savely DR an Elesh Norn, because he couldn't counter it. Leaving me with 1 Elesh and 2 Zombies VS his 2 1/1 mongeese. He flipped the top card of his library and scooped.
Round 2 against Stoneblade.
G1: Quick start with big Dredges and Street Wraith, Phantasma / Shadow synergy and Cabal Therapying and hitting always. Quickly generated Zombie tokens and won. [ He had an Elspeth on turn 4 but I killed it]
G2: 2x Purify the Grave prevents evil Snapcaster / Extraction blabla. On turn 5 he had Elsepth, Clique and Snapcaster. I firestormed his board and won the turn afterwards.
Round 3 against Stiflenaught
G1: He opened with Seat of Synod and Brainstormed at the end of my turn. He played a factory and passed the turn. I did massive Street Wraith / Sphinx action and wanted to Therapy him, but he immediately scooped. I don't know what he was playing, and thought it was Affinity at this point.
G2: I saw that he was boarding 7 cards, so I expected a lot of hate. I boarded in Claims to be sure and Grudges because I put him on Affinity. He got an early Crypt combined with an early welder, which kinda spelled GG. I hardcasted and Therapied all I could to get infos about his boardings and saw a REB and Firespout. i also saw Torpor Orbs, Dreadnaughts and stuff and know which deck he was now. I finally lost due to Lavamancer and Bolts and the recuring Crypt.
G3: Lost due to a Ravenous Trap after an eot Phantasmagorian activation. I never recovered from that because I didn't expected that. I thought he had 2 Blasts, 3 Firespouts and 2 Crypts, turned out it were 1 Blast, 2 Spout, 2 Crypt and 2 Trap. :mad:
Round 4 against Dragon Stompy
G1: I was happy to see that Deck again, because it was a long played Pet-deck from me, and I know exactly how both decks work [I wrote the DS-Primer here for example]. He played a lot of unimpressive screwpieces and I killed him with Ichorids and Shadows which produce more and more tokens.
G2: Same as game 1.
Round 5 against the Gate
G1: He started and Thoughtseized me, hitting my Firestorm. He found a 2nd land, but never saw the 3rd one. Sphinx-drawing, Therapyraping, Zobieaction, GG.
G2: The first opponent who says: "You start." Yeah, really... It seems like people see Lands in Dredge and think like: "Ok, I can still start G2, he isn't Manaless" Absolutely fantastic. He mulled to 6. I opened with City -> Therapy, targeting him and calling Extirpate. I hit. He played Swamp go, and was screwed for several turns. I played Citadels, Cities, Mines, etc. and Hardcasted Therapies, Shadows, and stuff to fill my board and kill his hand. At 9 life [I did all the damage due to hardcasting stuff] he found his 2nd land. I Firestormed 3 of my creatures end of his turn, discarding 2 Bridges and a DR to create 6 Zombie Tokens which killed him.
Round 6 against Show & Tell / Painter
G1: He got a fast Painer/Stone and killed me.
G2: Very long game. I therapied and annoyed him, and Dredged my Blightsteel Colossus during the first 2 Dredges, he saws it and knew that he can't kill me with paintercombo without a piece of Colossus hate. He S&Ted an Emrakul 1 Turn later, Me S&Ted an Ichorid to generate a token, this would allow me to have 3 Creatures in my turn. Okay... I had 3 creatures and must find my Angel of Despair now. DRing Sphinx... resolves... I dredged a bounch of cards, but no Angel. Therapied my Sphinx, calling myself GGT because he had 0 handcards. DRed Sphinx again. Dredged all but ~6 cards. No Angel... damn. At least I found my other 3 Bridges. I played a Land, and DRed Elesh Norn. [I boarded her because I wanted to DR her in case I coudn't kill him if he Paintercomboes my library except Blightsteel, and the Ichorid / Moeba / Shadowdamage wouldn't be enough.] His turn. He drew a Trinket Mage and played him. Trinket Mage found a Crypt and died to Elesh Norn. Crypt blew my graveyard up. Then he Annihilatored me 2 lands and 4 Zombie Tokens leaving my board with Elesh Norn and 5 Zombies. He had an 0/1 painter and a tapped Emrakul. Just enough damage to kill him. Phew.
G3: He started and I opened a hand with Blightsteel. I thought damn, but I couldn't mulligan. Maybe I find a Gorian to discard it before he can combo. I DDDed a GGT and Street Wraithed at the end of his Turn. I found 2 Moebas and a Shadow which couldn't trigger yet. His Turn. He played S&T. Showing me Emrakul. I showed him Blighsteel Colossus [How awesome is that? :laugh:]. End of his turn I used Phantasmagorian to dump 2 Ichoirds. In my turn I revived 2 Ichorids and 2 Shadows. I attacked with the Shadows, Ichorids and Blightsteel. Emrakul was forced to Block Blightsteel Colossus and shrinked down to 4/4. My Ichorids died EOT to create 2 Zombie Tokens. Emrakul attacked. I annhilatored a Land, 2 Tokens, 2 Shadows and a Moeba and said my other Moeba blocks him. [gaining 4 tokens, in the progress] He scooped. Blightsteel Colossus FTW!
All in all I was very happy with the performance and I really like my current 60 cards. I was unsatisfied with Grudges. I can't say what the future brings for this build but I think I will stop to play non-LED Dredge for the next 3 month because I don't want to play this build in a cage-overyhped meta. I hope you had fun with this little bit different Dredge list. :tongue:
Excuse me if there are many grammar errors, but I am very tired and I am going to sleep now, just wanted to write that report before I forget everything.
The only time I can imagine Entomb being useful is when it fetches a reanimate dude. But then you should be asking yourself if you're playing the right deck. If you want to bring back a fattie to win all the time, look elsewhere.
We run up to 12 dredgers because we want one in our opening hand. Entomb into GGT is strictly worse than Careful Study, Breakthrough, PImp, Tribe, or Looting into GGT. That's why we don't use it.
It lets you choose your dredger, searches for therapy/narcomoeba to flashback, and is far better on a low mulligan than additional discard outlets. It's slightly worse against countermagic than a naturally drawn dredger, but most people assume you're on reanimator if you cast an entomb and will wait to counter the reanimation spell for some reason. Also, 11 dredgers with 4 entomb increases your chances further to open with a dredger.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
I don't think you want dredgers in your hand. I think you want them in your graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
If you run Entomb, you don't need Putrid Imp for discard because you have Phantasmagorian. The extra body helps, but:
- entomb increases the amount of dredgers by 4 serving as a virtual-dredger. It will always get a GGT.
- It increases the number of Dread Returns in your deck. For the cost of 1 mana, you can get access to your dread return (which is only a 2 off).
- If you have your dread return, but not your target, you can reliably get a one-off Iona in your graveyard.
- I would like to know if Narcomoeba can be put into play by casting Entomb on it. I think it works but I'd need to verify it with a judge.
- Though I'm not sure how relevant it is going to be, you can also flashback a faithless looting.
- It also improves your sideboard hate, namely, ancient grudge (Grafdigger ).
- It can ensure you get a Bridge from Below
- It can ensure you get your third creature for dread return
Please explain to me why all of these benefits don't outweigh against Putrid Imp, which's only advantage over Entomb is the fact that its a discard outlet and a creature in one, and the fact that ichorid can eat it.
@NecroYawg:
Again, good job.
As long as some players show that skill and a decent decklist make dredge a top contender I do not loose faith in the deck; regardless how much muppets think they can durdle around with graveyard triggers without actually knowing how to play their deck.
Like that Purify a lot btw.
Greetings!
Putrid Imp gives you a recursive ability in being able to continue chaining dredgers in the event you brick on hitting another off your first. However inconsequential it may seem, you need that body to allow to Ichorid to return to play. The deck is actually rather light as it is on dredgers, so you don't want to jeopardize that incredibly important aspect of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
You'd look awfully foolish Entombing for a dredger, dredging, and then bricking on another one.
The Dredge ability is in itself a marginal 'tutor' because you're virtually able to play every card that gets knocked off the top of your deck. Entomb does nothing more powerful than any of the other enablers in the deck are capable of doing and provides little to no explosiveness in and of itself. It's a cute trick, but it really does nothing but improve consistency marginally - and I do mean marginally - and even then it doesn't really do anything else besides that.
The only thing I would even remotely consider Entomb for is for finding a Dread Return target in the event you need one, but if you're tapping one mana to cast something in this deck, make it worth your while. Putrid Imp is better for its recursive element and redundancy built into it. Not only that, but it gets those extra cards into your graveyard turn two so you can enable a busted Breakthrough or Coliseum activation - a huge aspect of the deck and something Entomb most certainly cannot do. It's really a no-brainer.
You did it already for us.Quote:
Please explain to me why all of these benefits don't outweigh against Putrid Imp, which's only advantage over Entomb is the fact that its a discard outlet and a creature in one, and the fact that ichorid can eat it.
The narcomoeba with entomb trick does work. Narcomoeba triggers whenever it is sent from your library to the graveyard, which entomb does. In regards to entomb, I'm merely suggesting it as a way to shave the additional discard outlets that this deck sometimes plays that do nothing in the yard and are bad on a mulligan with no dredgers, also increasing the number of virtual dredgers while offering a good plan b toolbox plan. Imp is still better than entomb because you need some sort of consistent discard outlet for when dredgers are drawn without a careful study/mulligan on the draw/being on the play/last ditch breakthrough, Imp happens to feed Ichorid so it makes the cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Nice job Yawg.Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Someone should sig that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Okay, so you're saying it's GGT 5-8 for B. That's decent and probably the most typical use it would have. But, you shouldn't be cutting dredgers and Ichorid for it. You should be cutting spells. That's the slots it would fill: draw cards and (permanent or multiple) discards.Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
And you say it's worse against counters... If they don't play some sort of counter, we'll just blow them out as we do now. Why change into something that doesn't actually help our limited problems game one?
Why play a single entomb before the best 12 dredgers and 4 Ichorid?
The best reason to play entomb is mulligans. Whenever I play this deck, I mull to 5 or lower at least three times throughout the tournament, if not lower and more often. In these hands, it is very unlikely to draw a discard outlet and a dredger, making having one but not the other mediocre. However, entomb is a great card to have in such hands. I'm not stating that it's a staple for this deck by any means, just something worth testing that allows you to toolbox out the deck more and mulligan smoother.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
@NecroYawg
Congratulations on the finish, and for the marterfully crafted list! ^^
Something (probably irrelevant) tho:
When people said 11 was the best number to get exactly one card in hand, I thought they actually did the math and used it, but I guess they didn't. The real best number to get exactly one is 8, with 42,17% chance, and not 11, with 39,83%.
What 11 is better than 9 is into getting 1 or more, but in this case, 12 is better than 11, 13 is better than 12 and so on... Still, 11 does a great job with lands in dredge's experience, so I think it's a good number to have.
And lastly, if you are looking for the best number of lands to run to get [1 or 2] lands in opener, with the drawn card (on the draw), than this number is either 10 or 11, with 66,99%
Sorry for taking too long to check these numbers for you.
I believe that what you're referring to as the "additional discard outlets that this deck sometimes plays that do nothing in the yard and are bad on a mulligan with no dredgers" is Tireless Tribe. I haven't put too much thought into it, but it's possible that there might be an argument worth looking into when considering Entomb as an alternative for the slots for Tireless Tribe. Unfortunately, though, that slot has recently been taken over by Faithless Looting, and I don't think that Entomb would be the better choice over another Careful Study (with Flashback nonetheless).Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
In the absence of any of the enablers that Dredge already has access to (e.g. Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp), Entomb would possibly be worth considering. Unfortunately, though, these enablers are just too good to pass up on.
Kind Regards,
jares
It seems that your mulligan rate is higher than the usual. Personally, I would like to mulligan as seldom as possible, which is why I painstakingly try my best to tweak my deck to minimize inconsistencies. Based on your build, I feel that applying the following tweaks would help lower your mulligan rate better than by playing Entomb:Quote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
- You're running 4 DR targets in the main deck - this is 2 greater than what can be commonly seen in LED lists, and 3 more than the minimum requirement for going combo-esque.
- You have 3 DR, which is understandable, given that you have a lot of DR targets. It's just worth noting that the more DR you have, the more cards in the deck that won't contribute to your opening hand. The same logic applies to DR targets.
- Having just 8 Gold Lands gives you a smaller probability of getting a land in the opening hand (65%, as compared to 81% if you were to run 12).
- Having just 10 Dredgers (instead of the suggested 11) gives you a smaller probability of getting one in the opening hand. Entomb does not strictly count as a dredger because it requires a land to have it be "converted" into one (and as noted above, your probabilities of drawing the correct land is also smaller in this build), and you also can't DDD with it if the need to do so arises.
- Not running a full set of Careful Study decreases the number of Discard Outlets and Draw Spells that you would both want in your opening hand.
Based on these observations, it seems to me that you'll benefit more from tightening your build rather than make up for the inconsistencies by playing Entomb (by making cuts on some of the essentials) and exposing yourself even further to counters. If you still feel unconvinced of the inconsistencies that I've noted above, I believe that I can provide the numbers that will support these suggestions (though I would rather not go through that :tongue:).
I hope this helps.
Kind Regards,
jares
A very important aspect of Entomb that most people here seem to be missing is the fact that it helps your game 2 and 3 by giving you access to a toolbox of anti-hate cards. Dredge was never about winning game 1.
Entomb is an answer to Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus, because you can tutor up an Ancient Grudge and force him to crack his hate. That means, for the measly price of 1 sideboard-slot, you will have 5 cards that give you access artifact hate. If you increase the number of Ancient Grudges to 3 or 4, you will have little problems with artifact-dredge hate.
It all depends on how popular Grafdigger's Cage will be, because that knocks some wind out of Entomb's sails. Dredge is known to have limited options / lines of play, and any card that makes the deck more non-lineair requires careful consideration before coming to a verdict. The number, and type of plays Entomb enables suggests that testing, as opposed to theory crafting, will give us more insight.
Entomb may require a different type of framework for dredge, similar to legacy's manaless dredge with gigapede/phantasmagorian or vintage's sharuum sharuum (FoW-based dredge with fatestitchers/altar of dementia).
EDIT: In the mirror, you could search for Memory's Journey to send your opponent's dredgers or ichorid away, gaining valuable tempo. It also helps you disrupt a past in flames turn, or a reanimate. Reanimate, Dredge and Tendrils-combo are all very fast decks, so having an answer to these decks with very little sideboard dedication is worth considering. You can also get Ray of Revelation, but unfortunately, that won't be particularly helpful against Leyline of the Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon.
@Jares: You suggest that tightening the deck helps combat the inconsistencies further than adding entomb, but how does that compare in game 2 and game 3, where you need your anti-hate cards to make your deck function. Entomb looks like a swiss-army knive in g2/g3.
Okay, there are obviously some things you just don't want to see. Entomb is not a swiss-army knife by any means and it simply doesn't belong in this deck.
You say that it improves your game 2 by giving you access to Ancient Grudge. First of all, it's entirely useless for finding anti hate against any other kind of graveyard hate and due to the fact that the artifact based hate cards don't see as much play any more anyway, the value of Entomb is already very limited in that respect.
Now I want to ask you: Your opponent has just dropped a Crypt turn one. What is better?
- An opening hand with Lands, dredger and Entomb, which finds you the Grudge and lets you blow up the Crypt right away. Then you're left without any discard outlets and if you don't find any in the top 4-5 cards of your deck you probably just lose.
- Or is maybe a hand of Lands, dredger and discard dork better, which lets you start slowdredging until you find your first Grudge. You force him to sac his Crypt and can easily restart your engine and probably win from there.
On average, the second scenario will give you a much earlier access to a fully stocked graveyard to win the game.
Second, what about Entomb in game 1. The question is: What does it actually do? It tutors for a Dredger or finds a dread Return target. This application can generally be narrowed down to finding a Dredger, because you will very rarely gat into a situation where you have a fully stocked yard (with DR and enough dudes to sac), have an untapped gold land, have Entomb still in your hand (after a possible Breakthrough) and at the same time don't already have the DR target you want in your graveyard. Then the board state has to be one where the DR target you're looking for is crucially needed to win the game, a board state where Zombies and Ichorids can't get there any more. The occurence of such scenarios is already in question, which is why many people don't even play any DR targets in the main deck at all, in which case this use of Entomb is also not a factor.
So let's pretend that Entomb is actually mainly used for the same things the discard dork you cut for it as well: Getting a Dredger in the yard. If this is the case, I can't really see how it's better than the discard dorks either. True, you can find a Dredger if you don't have any in your hand. And if you brick on the first dredge you'll spend turns after turns trying to recover and get started again. The dorks can't find you a Dredger if you have none in your hand. But even if you somehow keep such a hand, they at least mean that as soon as you find one, you'll be able to combo out and do what the deck can do best. The composition of the deck is already trying to maximize the chance to hit a Dredger in your first seven and in the majority of cases you also hit one.
Entomb is one of those cards that, from time to time, someone brings up and wants to see how good it is. And it's been proven fifty times that it's just way too bad for the deck. I welcome you to be the fifty-first, but I advise you to let it be. That card never was and will never be good enough in this type of Dredge deck.
Quoting this for Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Even some great players brought this topic thinking Entomb was GGT #5, but the simple fact that it has to be cast to become a dredger makes it worse than a dredger, because it won't ever fit in the multiple roles of this deck, or in other words, it won't DDD.
I have not read any recommendations about Entomb in conjunction with Phantasmagorian before. If it was discussed and tested on these board, please link me to the relevant post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I specifically stated that Entomb may require a different dredge-framework. Apparently, reading is hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I can see how Entomb would fail to perform due to not being as explosive as something like Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting or even Brainstorm, but ignoring the fact that the card has a lot of utility, especially game 2 and 3 when it really matters, is just ignorant.
The example you've written out does make sense, however, I'm not advocating cutting putrid imp for entomb per se. Entomb isn't strictly a Reanimator card. I've played it in conjunction with standstill with a toolbox of vengeful pharaoh / darkblast / life from the loam, and it's also played in certain pox builds. It would help if you'd broaden your horizons.
Entomb's role in Dredge would be far closer to Serum Powder in ensuring you get your first turn dredge hand, with the exception that Entomb allows more lines of play and is more relevant when the game has started (Though it's questionable if you will ever actually draw cards after turn 1). There is a reason why Vintage dredge plays with Serum Powder, even though its completely dead after the game has started.
As an aside, I wouldn't pick up dredge right now to begin with. Scavenging Ooze and the hype around Grafdigger's Cage is enough reason for me to pick other, less graveyard dependent options. The graveyard hate is very diversified nowadays.
Entomb does not get you a turn one Bazaar of Baghdad. I think there's a vast difference in power-level between the two here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
For starters, anyone playing Grafdigger's Cage in a deck with Scavenging Ooze is probably making a deck-building or sideboarding error - especially when GS'sZ is your primary tutor. Thus, you'd be forced to open with either, making that deck mulligan a little more aggressively than usual. Also, Grafdigger's Cage does absolutely nothing to stop you from playing out your hand and easily opening into some form of artifact or enchantment hate. It's an investment that in reality does nothing more than Relic or Crypt, and to be honest it doesn't even stop you from dredging. Cage - in my eyes - is inferior in many ways to other forms of hate because Cage does not stop you from dredging or drawing and dumping a few cards to find answers. It's a static artifact that to be honest will see lots of play in the beginning and will slowly fade as just another alternative next to Crypt and Relic - nothing more.
Also, Scavenging Ooze against a deck with Breakthrough, L.E.D., Looting, Firestorm, and Coliseum is ridiculously slow. By the time they can invest one or two mana to do something relevant your hand and probably a third to a half of your library will be in the graveyard - in addition to a stripped hand your opponent will be sitting on. Against L.E.D. Dredge, Ooze is just slow.
It's (Cage) good against Reanimator if they aren't sitting on Show and Tell, but it doesn't really stop Dredge from doing its thing until it answers it straight up - which isn't that difficult. And there are more than four slots in my sideboard dedicated to dealing with it, and in testing it hasn't been a problem yet.
Here we go again. Entomb discussion #34.
Dear gods...
I was at the same tournament as Necro(and K1W1, who didn't play dredge, booooo)
I was using a list very simular to Hollywood's
R1 against Alex
I lost two quick games against Reanimator...
R2 against Norman with U/R Delver
G1 I combo out quick via LED into Breakthrough, not much he can do.
G2 He extracts my Bridges and I take too long to get back into the game.
G3 We both don't really get much, I beat him slowly down with Ichorids. Fun games Oo
R3 against Michael with Affinity
G1 I win the die roll and open with Gemstone Mine , pass. He lays out hhis whole hand and I end of turn Firestorm, cleaning the board, reanimate Sun Titan the following turn and finish the whole thing with flashback Ravings-> he scoops.
G2 He opens with Crypt, I open with Imp and Golgari Thug. I slowdredge, going very low in the process, but he eventually has to blow shit up and I combo off vial my slowrolled Breakthrough.
Round 4 against Felix with MonoB the Gate.. I really hate this matchup-.-
G1 I keep a too slow hand to match his Double Bob into Jitte into Gatekeeper and he wins shortly thereafter.
G2 He again comes out of the Gate faster than me, Getting a double Sadistic Sacrament but I somehow manage to win because my last Bridge was in my hand.
G3 I open fast, but he has Extirpate. I manage to therapy away another Extirpate and a double Engineered Plague but again Jitte comes to save the day and I roll over due to huge amounts of hate.
R5 against Carsten with Threshhold
G1 Is really close. In the end we both have lethal on the board and I make a huge misplay and try to Dread Return FKZ to win but he has stifle. I knew about that stifle goddammit. I lose in the following turn.
G2 Is close once again, he has triple extraction but I manage to Purify my Troll on the third one. After that we both have nothing until I find Elesh Norn to win.
G3 He again has double Extraction but very few threats, I win with Sun Titan on my first Extra Turn.
R6 Against Norman with the bad ANT list from GP Amsterdam.
G1 I am way too fast for him, he get's flooded as hell and I win without a sweat. He was kind enough to first turn Duress away my first first turner of the tournament though...meh.
G2 Again I am very fast, but he somehow manages to win via Ad Nauseam on 6 life.
G3. Much more of a game. He is forced to go for Ad Nauseam on turn 3, without mana floating on 18 life and fizzles because he doesn't see the play of pass the turn, then win when he was still at a high enough life total.
4-2 and I am satisfied. I end up 14th and still get a Spellskite, well that's fine.Plus, my little shiny glitty Zombieponies are awesome.
The deck plays really smoothly and I am looking forward for Faithless Looting and quadlasering the shit out of opponents.
Hi bruizar,Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I'm not sure of what you would like me to address here, but I'll try my best to respond aptly.
"You suggest that tightening the deck helps combat the inconsistencies further than adding entomb..."
- I'm not sure if you agree with this or not, but I'll assume that you do, because you've provided no counter-arguments that I can respond to. Also, just to be clear, my post that you responded to was really an effort to help with the build that was presented, and not a generalization of Entomb (although it's likely to be true that several of those points would still be valid as generalizations).
"how does that compare in game 2 and game 3, where you need your anti-hate cards to make your deck function? Entomb looks like a swiss-army knive in g2/g3."
- First off, I'm one of the people who don't use Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, and other anti-hate that can be used while in the GY, so you might be talking to the wrong person here :tongue:. But if you're asking for my opinion, I'd say that Entomb, by design, does allow you to essentially create some sense of redundancy among the cards that can be accessed from the GY. The problem, though, might really be a more practical one - there might not be enough room for it in the SB. For Entomb to be maximized as a "swiss army knife" (as you've mentioned), you would need to fit a variety of cards in the limited SB space, and also make room for the desired number of Entombs. Also, Entomb CANNOT be used from the GY, so you might really be better-off adding an extra Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation - after all, you're using a Dredge deck, the deck that maximizes both these cards. Amidst all that Entomb has to offer in Dredge, I'm sorry to say that it's just not as good a fit as the current Dredge staples, at least based on the arguments that you're presenting (which are possible statements that I'm trying to squeeze from your post really :laugh:).
I guess that's it from what you've left for me to address.
Kind Regards,
jares
I know what it does, I've got 4 Bazaars sleeved up. Serum Powder gets you Bazaar more CONSISTENTLY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Serum Powder increases the chance to pull a bazaar from 39.95% to 65.36% on the opening 7. It is this increase in consistency that is the reason for its inclusion, not the fact that bazaar is stupid broken (If Bazaar was stupid broken and serum powder wouldn't increase its consistency, Serum Powder wouldn't be played.). The question is, is there something that we can Entomb that is worth increasing its consistency.
I'd argue that a first turn Entomb, into a second turn breakthrough is much more reliable than a first turn careful study with a second turn breakthrough.
You have a 39.95% chance to have a GGT in your opener. That means on 60.05% of the situations, you will have to dig for Golgari Grave Troll.
If I cast a Careful Study, I draw 2 cards, which gives me only 14.66% chance to hit a Golgari Grave Troll in a 53 card deck. This means, I usually don't get my troll online on turn 1 through Careful Study, whereas I will be 100% guaranteed to set it up with Entomb.
Putrid Imp doesn't even influence what, or how many cards you draw, so that's even less consistent but Putrid Imp is also a bad comparison perhaps. However, in the case of pimp you might be wasting your Breakthrough dredging a Dark Blast or Golgari Thug and getting stuck.
The turn after I play Entomb, playing either Breakthrough or Careful Study will let the game go nuts. In both cases, I will end with the Grave Troll back in the graveyard, which gives me a 100% chance to activate my dredge-6 GGT again (if GY is not hated).
One counter argument, is the fact that a turn 1 Careful Study or Faithless Looting allows you to discard not one, but 2 dredgers in the graveyard. In cases where you would have 2 dredgers in your first 9 cards, Careful Study could be better, but it wouldn't neccesarily be better. By going for GGT through Entomb, I will dredge 6 cards deep. If in those 6 cards, I reveal another dredger and can keep chaining my draws, the Entomb play is still better, regardless of the exception with 2 dredgers in your hand.
Hi bruizar,Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I believe that you hit the jackpot right there - "testing, as opposed to theory crafting, will give us more insight".
Dredge is in the DTB section because it has proven itself as an archetype, and this archetype is helped defined by what we can refer to as the Dredge Core (which also takes into account the Dredge variations that have also been proven at one time or another). Having said that, I would like to specifically point this out for you:
- The burden of proof is on he that challenges the norm - that's you.
Our responses have not made it easy for you to present your idea specifically because our collective experiences (tournament play, several hours of testing, doing the math, etc.) have shown us that, unfortunately, Entomb does not make the cut. As previously mentioned, it has already been considered repeatedly, even by the players that have brought this archetype to the top, and it seems that not much has changed in the game to allow the conclusion regarding Entomb to to be redone.
I encourage you to do just as you've suggested - do as much testing as you can, and after that, share your findings. Just remember that there are no right or wrong answers in Magic - there are just the thoughtless ones, and the defensible ones.
Cheers,
jares
Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are totally sweet fighting hate games 2 and 3, so they are uncuttable.
So if the question is Careful Study versus Entomb, I have to ask whether Tribe/Imp + Careful Study versus Tribe/Imp + Entomb comes up often enough to justify how much "better" Entomb + Breakthrough is in comparison to Entomb.
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by jares
Please point me to the math, and of tournament reports/lists that have used Entomb. It's logical that Entomb doesn't have tournament reports if it doesn't get played.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
What is the big problem with Entomb? Why is it so lackluster?Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
This is true. I've had my share of successes and failures as a brewer. Apparently, I'm not doing bad at all, evaluating cards, since I've speculated on cards for quiet a lump of money (5 digit number) and have made a pretty nice profit to date.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Hi bruizar,Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I like that you've done the math, and let me be the first to confirm that these numbers are correct. In comparison, considering the Careful Study example, we would only have a 48.75% chance of getting a GGT in the GY by turn 1. It's worth noting, though, that these are just the numbers for GGT - considering all 12 dredgers (at least for my build), there's an 80.94% chance that you would get an opening hand with at least one dredger.
I believe though, that the issue here is not what Entomb is able to contribute to the deck - I find that the issue is really centered on two things:
- What would you need to cut to make room for Entomb?
- Will the benefits of incorporating Entomb be worth more than the side effects of making room for it?
We could continue making a list of things that Entomb can contribute to Dredge, but until we consider how Dredge is very good and clearly show why it will be better because of Entomb, we will fall short of that "burden of proof" that comes with challenging the norm.
Kind Regards,
jares
"Please point me to the math, and of tournament reports/lists that have used Entomb. It's logical that Entomb doesn't have tournament reports if it doesn't get played."Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
- I have honestly never seen a winning Dredge list win an Entomb, so I can't really help you there. As for what has already been discussed, I believe that that's somewhere in this forum, and I don't have the patience to go through 150 pages :tongue:.
"What is the big problem with Entomb? Why is it so lackluster?"
- I believe it's really just because there simply are better options based on what Dredge is trying to achieve. In comparison, Entomb is at its best in Reanimator because of what Reanimator is trying to achieve - efficiently "cheat" one large creature into play by smuggling it through the GY, with "ONE" being the operative word.
Cheers,
jares
Tell me only one thing. What do you do if your Entombed GGT does not find a second dredger?
There is no point in duscussing the whole thing any further before you finally comment on the biggest disadvantage of your tech as well. Careful Study, when used as a discard outlet, at least draws you two more cards which can be outlets if you brick on your first Dredge. That's often two Timewalks already, because it gets you two cards deeper on your search for another discard outlet.
Just an aside: the chance for you to have a Dredger in the remaining 6 cards of your opening hand is just as high as your chance to hit another Dredger with your Entombed Troll. Either way, the discard dorks win.
I will be the first to agree that dredge is very tight. However, what Entomb brings is added consistency (getting your best dredger more often, or getting your missing piece for the dread return online: Narcomoeba/Dread Return/Fatty).Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
It obviously depends on which list to look at. I haven't done the math on this so I'm not sure how unholy it is to touch Tireless Tribe/Putrid Imp.
-1 Golgari Thug/Darkblast (Yes, Dark Blast gives you an out to Yixlid Jailer and a lot of the meta is */1 now)
-2 Tireless Tribe
-1 x
+4 Entomb
I agree that its incredibly tight as it is, and you don't want to lose too many creatures from the build, but I'd still rather have an Entomb than a Tireless Tribe for the simple fact that I can get a guarantee on my GGT.
I can't answer this question. You'd have to have Breakthroughs, Studies, Faithless Looting or an additional Entomb to get Phantasmagorian (if you would run this). This is the most convincing argument against Entomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Optimizing game 1 at the cost of games 2-3 is pretty foolish. Don't cut Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe.